Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cubby on <05-15-19/1301:36>
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From Jason Hardy, Shadowrun Line Developer:
Shadowrun, Sixth World is coming soon!
Wait, Shadowrun, Sixth World isn’t out yet? But I’ve been thinking about it for years! Playing it for more than a year! How are other people not playing it? Development time can be so disorienting.
(https://i.ibb.co/mHT62zL/SR6-09-Adept-Victor-Moreno-FINAL.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TH2m7hV)
There was a time—six years ago, to be specific—when I threatened physical violence to anyone who said the words “sixth edition” in my presence. (The threats didn’t work. No one is ever scared of me. But I digress). Fifth Edition took a lot of effort to produce, and I didn’t want to think about starting that whole process again. But then there were a few years where I didn’t have to think about a new edition, and I could recharge. Actually, that’s not entirely true, because every time I play a game—whether it’s one I worked on or not—I’m kind of thinking of a new edition. I’m looking at what works well, what works differently than intended, and what possibilities might open up with a tweak here and there. So when the time came to envision the next edition of Shadowrun, I had a few ideas, as did the excellent roster of Shadowrun writers and gamemasters I could tap into.
All those ideas needed a framework, of course. As we started our work, we decided the sixth edition of Shadowrun needed to possess three main qualities:
1. Be no more than 300 pages long;
2. Use D6 dice pools; and
3. Feel like Shadowrun.
Those last two points are related, because it’s tough for a game to feel like Shadowrun if you’re not rolling a healthy handful of D6s. But there’s more to it than that. Combat specialists, spellcasters, conjurers, adepts, faces, deckers, technomancers, riggers, enchanters, weapon specialists, and more all need to exist, and they all must have different and meaningful ways to contribute to a run.
In this edition, all that had to happen within 300 pages. Which is a trick. Fifth Edition, not counting the index, is 466 pages; the anniversary edition of Fourth Edition was 351 pages, and Third Edition was 325 pages (minus the sample record sheets). Second Edition is a lean 284 pages, but it had no bioware, no technomancers, no alchemy, and no qualities, to name a few things that have changed in the intervening years. The book that started it all is an even leaner 207 pages, but along with the elements Second Edition didn’t have, it lacks things such as adepts and foci, and it offers only twenty guns—heresy! (Fifth Edition has 52, while Shadowrun, Sixth World will offer 53–we didn’t cut back much on those options!) All this is to say that streamlining the core rulebook back to 300 pages was not going to be easy.
It’s important to note that simply making the book shorter doesn’t, by itself, do any good. You can make any book shorter by simply ripping every third page out, but you end up with a book that makes no sense. Making the book shorter only is useful if the game also becomes smoother to play. In other words, we didn’t just want a shorter game—we wanted one that moved faster and was easier to get into, while still offering lots of meaningful options. We also didn’t want this to be Shadowrun: Anarchy for the simple reason that Anarchy already exists. Anarchy represents a more extreme end of the rules-light spectrum than Shadowrun, Sixth World–one way to understand the difference between the two is that the gear rules and listings take up about seven or eight pages in Anarchy, compared to fifty pages in Sixth World. Did I mention we wanted to offer lots of options?
Anyway, this means that if the rules were changed, they needed to be changed with an eye toward enabling players to do the things that they wanted to do more quickly. Combat should be faster. Hacking should be smoother and more intuitive. Magic should adapt to be just what the caster wants it to be. And so on. So what, specifically, did we do? Here’s a sample:
• Expanded Edge: Yes, one of the things we did to streamline the game was to make one function much more detailed. But stay with me for a second. The definition of Edge has shifted—rather than being that undefinable something extra you reach for in a tough spot to help put you over the top, Edge now represents the accumulated advantage you get in opposed situations. Whether you’re fighting, spellcasting, hacking, or negotiating, you’ll have a chance to earn and spend bonus Edge. And you should spend it—if you’re not gaining and spending Edge regularly in Shadowrun, Sixth World, it might be time to rethink your tactics. Or find less formidable opposition. Gaining and spending Edge replaces a lot of other functions in the game, like calculating situational modifiers, dealing with recoil and armor piercing, and environmental modifiers. Edge also provides a chance for a character to really have an impact when it’s time to spend it.
• Fewer action types: There are two, Minor and Major. That’s it! You get one Minor and one Major per turn, with an additional Minor for various circumstances, such as reaction-enhancing augmentations or spells. One Major Action may be traded for four Minor Actions, or four Minor for one Major.
• Simplified initiative: You roll initiative at the start of an encounter and then don’t re-roll it. Certain actions or effects may change your initiative score, though.
• No limits: Limits served a valuable function of balancing attributes and providing different opportunities for rule effects, but in a streamlined ruleset, they are not needed. Limits on most tests and Force for spells have all been removed.
• Skill list narrowed: Fifth Edition has 80 skills, while Sixth World has 19. That’s a big difference. There’s definite streamlining there, but it comes at the risk of characters not being distinct from each other. To deal with that, players can still select specializations but can also upgrade a specialization to an expertise, giving their character +3 bonus dice instead of +2, and once they have an expertise they can select an additional specialization. This will provide characters with chances to become truly distinct.
• More intuitive Matrix: This is an ongoing goal, and it’s always fun to try to make Matrix activities happen alongside and in parallel with the other actions. Deckers will have meaningful things to do and ways to get in, make things happen, and get out—all while trying to avoid the watchful eyes of the Grid Overwatch Division, of course.
(https://i.ibb.co/fQJ1wGz/SR6-12-Decker-Ian-King-FINAL.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XVH2Rkr)
Those are some of the major changes, but far from the only ones. We haven’t talked about Attack Ratings, the uses of armor, changes to Knowledge skills, revamped spell design, new vehicle stats, cyberjacks, and more. I hope this gives you a taste of the upcoming changes, and I look forward to you all playing Shadowrun, Sixth World as much as I have and will! And look for more information on this blog each Wednesday in May!
• May 1: Initial Announcement
• May 8: Product Overview
• May 15: Developer Overview
• May 22: Setting Overview/Fiction Announcement
• May 29: Developer Q&A
• June 5: Rigger Dossier
• June 12: Shadowrun at Origins preview
• More to follow
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• Skill list narrowed: Fifth Edition has 80 skills, while Sixth World has 19. That’s a big difference.
Is this going to be like the change from D&D 3.5 to 4.0?
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it's definitely a simplification in many areas.
hard to tell if it will be catastrophic like D&D 4e until we get some play time in...
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There is nothing wrong with simple - as long as it's elegant.
If we lived in the best timeline, that would mean SR6 kept a clear segregation of fluff and crunch, used consistent terminology in said crunch and used robust core mechanics without feeling the need to add special rules every which way.
Let's see what we get :)
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19 Skills is a significant step in reducing the Skills A trap. Presuming starting characters are still getting 18 to 30-odd skill points in Priority gen.
Also presuming the game explicitly states stats of 1 are low but not crippled the "Floor" of starting character Dice Pools might actually be high enough that the ceiling of optimized characters doesn't matter (as much).
It would be keen if a viable character was as easy as "Pick Logic, Agility, or Charisma, put a 6 in it. Pick three skills that normally use that stat and put 6s in them. Buy some stuff. Do whatever you want with the rest. Done."
What would be really cool is if Priority gen used a system of increasing costs during chargen. Or Post-chargen used flat costs. Either way. Probably going to be 8th edition before we see either of those though...
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• Skill list narrowed: Fifth Edition has 80 skills, while Sixth World has 19.
And how many of those were just exotic weapon skills? I honestly don't see how you got to a count of 80.
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60 some odd Active skills I think, not counting Exotic Weapons. Could hit 80 with Exotic Weapons and rounding up a bit. :P
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Not counting the exotics, but including TM and magic skills I come up with 77.
It is kind of cool in concept to be do something like "the character's background was as a deep sea diver, so they have diving and swimming at high levels, as well as survival (aquatic) and pilot watercraft. But then you realize that instead you could drop those skills, reduce your skills priority by 1, and be stronger overall.
I think detailed skills will always be a problem in a system that lets you trade off depth of skills for other useful things like attributes or resources. So I'm already happy to essentially dropping down to skill groups. It is a better fit for the style of character creation IMO.
edit: I am intrigued by the note that there is a change to how knowledge skills work, and am eager to hear more. I'm a big fan of knowledge skills, including 'professional' skills, so both worried and excited.
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19 Skills is a significant step in reducing the Skills A trap. Presuming starting characters are still getting 18 to 30-odd skill points in Priority gen.
Also presuming the game explicitly states stats of 1 are low but not crippled the "Floor" of starting character Dice Pools might actually be high enough that the ceiling of optimized characters doesn't matter (as much).
It would be keen if a viable character was as easy as "Pick Logic, Agility, or Charisma, put a 6 in it. Pick three skills that normally use that stat and put 6s in them. Buy some stuff. Do whatever you want with the rest. Done."
What would be really cool is if Priority gen used a system of increasing costs during chargen. Or Post-chargen used flat costs. Either way. Probably going to be 8th edition before we see either of those though...
We will have to see. If it is down to 19 skills you may only need 2-3 skills to have a fleshed out character, making any focus on skills pointless. The core mechanic of attribute+skill will most likely always make attributes the far better option in focus.
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We will have to see. If it is down to 19 skills you may only need 2-3 skills to have a fleshed out character, making any focus on skills pointless. The core mechanic of attribute+skill will most likely always make attributes the far better option in focus.
'Runners will always need Perception, Sneaking, and moderate levels of lying and blending in. Most will want some level of Climbing, Driving and probably a legwork skill. Then whatever skills they need to do whatever it is they actually do.
In 5e a single point of Logic, Charisma or Agility was worth many, many skill points. By cutting down on the number of skills each individual skill point becomes much more valuable. Which is probably a good thing, we'll have to see the CRB and look at the maths...
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We will have to see. If it is down to 19 skills you may only need 2-3 skills to have a fleshed out character, making any focus on skills pointless. The core mechanic of attribute+skill will most likely always make attributes the far better option in focus.
'Runners will always need Perception, Sneaking, and moderate levels of lying and blending in. Most will want some level of Climbing, Driving and probably a legwork skill. Then whatever skills they need to do whatever it is they actually do.
In 5e a single point of Logic, Charisma or Agility was worth many, many skill points. By cutting down on the number of skills each individual skill point becomes much more valuable. Which is probably a good thing, we'll have to see the CRB and look at the maths...
well here is teaser for you then ...
Sixth World Priority A is 24 attribute points and 32 skill points
5E is 24 attribute and 46/10 for skills
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We will have to see. If it is down to 19 skills you may only need 2-3 skills to have a fleshed out character, making any focus on skills pointless. The core mechanic of attribute+skill will most likely always make attributes the far better option in focus.
'Runners will always need Perception, Sneaking, and moderate levels of lying and blending in. Most will want some level of Climbing, Driving and probably a legwork skill. Then whatever skills they need to do whatever it is they actually do.
In 5e a single point of Logic, Charisma or Agility was worth many, many skill points. By cutting down on the number of skills each individual skill point becomes much more valuable. Which is probably a good thing, we'll have to see the CRB and look at the maths...
I agree in premise but 19 skills. I’m like magic probably has 2-3. Decker 2? Technomancer another 1-2. Fixing shit 1. Driving 1. Shooting. Melee. How many are actually needed skills when they get super broad.
Is there even a perception skill. With it being a specialization thing. Some giant stealth skill bought at a fairy low level focussed down to sneaking. Same for fast talk.
So firearms, stealth, influence. 3 skills 2 focussed down maybe specialized. 12ish skill points. I mean yeah maybe that’s b skills or something.
In play I think you will have more motivation to increase a skill. At char gen it really depends on how stingy the priorities are. And how broad the skills are.
Like is a hypothetical piloting skill all vehicles. Or is it a bit a bit more narrow. Seems crazy that 1 point in a skill might make you trained in very vehicle. But aircraft seems kind of narrow to whatcis effectively skill group sorcery.
Given the teaser that popped up while I was typing I still think they too stingy on attributes. As it costs too much priority just to get to human average. And I doubt anyone other than people like me will want A skills. It will still be much less effective than A attributes but it fits many of my characters.
Edit to add. I’m jumping the gun maybe. We don’t know b-e attributes. But the top being the same makes me think the progression is similar.
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Given the teaser that popped up while I was typing I still think they too stingy on attributes. As it costs too much priority just to get to human average. And I doubt anyone other than people like me will want A skills. It will still be much less effective than A attributes but it fits many of my characters.
Edit to add. I’m jumping the gun maybe. We don’t know b-e attributes. But the top being the same makes me think the progression is similar.
We honestly played around with making Perception an attribute because of how mandatory it is for a good runner but at the same time it didn't fit in there either ... so yes it is still a skill and it is definitely the most narrow of all the skills I think.
As for the attributes you also get attribute points from your metatype but there are restrictions on what you can spend them on. All metatypes can do Edge, Magic, and Resonance with them, but then for example a Troll can also spend them on Body and Strength while an Elf can do Agility and Charisma. The amount of points are hard to explain without giving away the full priority chart which I can't do ... but if you went troll and focused purely on getting the most attributes you can get without regard to any other priority you would have 35 points to spend and everything starts at 1 for free
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The high end of attributes never bother me too much but I see it as a bit stingy.
While I get the symmetry of c average c is a pretty big investment IMO to get human average stats, races provide attribute boost potential but I’m using human as my baseline. C gets Solid adept power, full mage aceess. but only human normal stats. Weird.
Maybe I’ve played to many games where you start as average in all stats but it just feels weird to invest that much just to be average. And given the scaling karma costs motivates really weird characters with a couple high stats and borderline non functional in the rest. In4e they went up to 8 stats. 5e priority but with numbers like 6stat1-3e. And stats are hugely more important
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I agree with you for the most part, I didn't write that section so I am not super familiar with it but I do remember there was a formula used to mathematically "balance" things out and it was based around the karma equivalent cost of advancement ... so hopefully you find it to not be too hateful
As for my personal experience and preferences I have always went higher priority on attributes and skills when building mundanes at least because gear and ware is to easy to advance once your in play
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We will have to see. If it is down to 19 skills you may only need 2-3 skills to have a fleshed out character, making any focus on skills pointless. The core mechanic of attribute+skill will most likely always make attributes the far better option in focus.
'Runners will always need Perception, Sneaking, and moderate levels of lying and blending in. Most will want some level of Climbing, Driving and probably a legwork skill. Then whatever skills they need to do whatever it is they actually do.
In 5e a single point of Logic, Charisma or Agility was worth many, many skill points. By cutting down on the number of skills each individual skill point becomes much more valuable. Which is probably a good thing, we'll have to see the CRB and look at the maths...
well here is teaser for you then ...
Sixth World Priority A is 24 attribute points and 32 skill points
5E is 24 attribute and 46/10 for skills
So total Newb stumbling into Skills A trap, probably winds up with 2 to 6 points in about 8 mundane skills. Bunch of 3s and 4s for stats. C for gear gets them a splash of this and that. Still an unspecialized train wreck that will wind up with minimal contributions at most tables, but could be tweaked up to 12 dice in 3 or 4 useful things by shuffling a few attribute points around.
Attributes A still looks like a "Better" investment, but Skills A will do a much better job of doing what most players want with 32 points to split up among 19 skills.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond!
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Not that you need all of those 19 skills. =P No need for the mechanics stuff, driving you can just buy 1 point with karma, who cares about hacking, magic's out...
32 sounds a lot like 46/2+10. :)
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And to repeat what Banshee said earlier (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29309.msg515780#msg515780), the Attribute priority gets some outside help from the Metatype priority granting 6e's version of "Special Attribute Points" on some regular attributes, not just Edge/Magic/Resonance.
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I’m kind of interested to see if there was much of any change to what attributes pair with which skills. 19 skills. A handful taken out for magic etc. less than 16 spread over 8 attributes. If strength doesn’t effect melee damage as some people think. Is it worth it for maybe 1 skill? Now if strength was the die pool for melee and athletics it is important for some builds.
If it’s a roughly even spread of skill number and value. Like 2 per attribute. 1 for body/will. How will that effect build priority. And for attributes that just are for skills but only boost 2 skills are they that valuable.
Lot a possible differences from what we know.
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And to repeat what Banshee said earlier (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29309.msg515780#msg515780), the Attribute priority gets some outside help from the Metatype priority granting 6e's version of "Special Attribute Points" on some regular attributes, not just Edge/Magic/Resonance.
As I understand it for non humans yes. For humans I’m not seeing a mechanical reason to play one from what has been explained so far.
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As I understand it for non humans yes. For humans I’m not seeing a mechanical reason to play one from what has been explained so far.
Well, with Edge being more important than ever before... I doubt Humans are going to be obsolete at 6E tables....
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As I understand it for non humans yes. For humans I’m not seeing a mechanical reason to play one from what has been explained so far.
Well, with Edge being more important than ever before... I doubt Humans are going to be obsolete at 6E tables....
Mathematically I suspect the opposite.
Max edge is 7. You can get a edge for having a big gun. Why ever start higher than 6? Humans big advantage is basically useless since you gain 1-2 a turn and it caps at their increased cap.
Also I suspect having a high edge attribute is less important this edition. There were edge builds in 4/5e because it was so useful and powerful. Now it seems like something you will use a lot due to the constant regeneration of it but it seems pretty minor overall.
Unless there is some big high edge move only humans have access to access to 7 edge seem pretty pointless.
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It's the difference between slinging edge out of the gates and then getting it back... and waiting to build up edge to then start spending it.
Edit: I'm not sure the point I was trying to make is getting across. It's not about 7 vs 6 edge. It's about humans having nothing but edge (or magic/resonance, if you swing that way) to spend those special points on, whereas metahumans will see other attributes competing for those "edge" attribute points. It's about 5 or 6 edge humans still being relevant when the metahumans with better stats are rolling with 2 or 3 edge.
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It's the difference between slinging edge out of the gates and then getting it back... and waiting to build up edge to then start spending it.
Edit: I'm not sure the point I was trying to make is getting across. It's not about 7 vs 6 edge. It's about humans having nothing but edge (or magic/resonance, if you swing that way) to spend those special points on, whereas metahumans will see other attributes competing for those "edge" attribute points. It's about 5 or 6 edge humans still being relevant when the metahumans with better stats are rolling with 2 or 3 edge.
As I understand it, nothing is stopping the troll from putting his points into edge first. Having less options isn’t a perk. If they gave humans a floating attribute to +1 max or something it might be a draw. Having less to spend points on isn’t. Maybe they get a crap ton more special attribute points or something so can max edge and magic/resonance at a low human level. But so far it seems there is no reason to play one mechanically.
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As I understand it, nothing is stopping the troll from putting his points into edge first.
Nothing's stopping it, but whatever points you put in Edge are not going into buffing Strength/Body. if you build a troll with human-like stats, you have a troll with human-like stats.
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As I understand it for non humans yes. For humans I’m not seeing a mechanical reason to play one from what has been explained so far.
Just a guess but humans probably get more "Points" to spend for the same priority. i.e. Priority E gets you any Metatype but 0 Points except for Humans getting 1. All the other Metatypes would have low-light vision or whatever Metatype bonuses they get. Something along those lines.
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Just a guess but humans probably get more "Points" to spend for the same priority. i.e. Priority E gets you any Metatype but 0 Points except for Humans getting 1. All the other Metatypes would have low-light vision or whatever Metatype bonuses they get. Something along those lines.
If not, that may become my SR6 houserule #2. (#1 being if only 5 Minors max, that that will be 6)
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As I understand it for non humans yes. For humans I’m not seeing a mechanical reason to play one from what has been explained so far.
Just a guess but humans probably get more "Points" to spend for the same priority. i.e. Priority E gets you any Metatype but 0 Points except for Humans getting 1. All the other Metatypes would have low-light vision or whatever Metatype bonuses they get. Something along those lines.
I thought about that. But it would have to be pretty significant to lose out on multiple stats that effectively have multiple exceptional attribute edges and minor perks like vision enhancements.
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In general Players and Game Developers view points now as being better than points later. Even in 5e Trolls were the best Metatype for the long term, but easily the rarest Metatype I ever saw at a table.
In this case the math only needs to be vaguely close so personal choice of your characters Metatype can take precedence. 5e the Maths were too far off IMO.
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Derailing things slightly, I'd like to say that while I appreciated Jason Hardy's developer notes, they told me precisely nothing that I hadn't already heard from other channels or sources.
Banshee, on the other hand, is telling us all sorts of things that we didn't otherwise know as we all clamor for details.
@Banshee Thank you for taking part in the conversation to the extent that your NDA allows. I very much appreciate the time and effort of your outreach and I bet the others feel the same as well. You are the true developer's notes!
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Not expecting perfection. But attributes are crazy important in this game. This gets metas more of them. Depending on how it works you can potentially dump those stats focusing your attributes A on the rest. And you’d likely still have plenty for a decent edge since I bet you can get out with skills d perfectly fine.
Sort of like a cyber limb gimmick.
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Maybe the true developer notes were the friends we made along the way.
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Maybe the true developer notes were the friends we made along the way.
They need a like function on this forum.
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Honestly, depending on your role, you don't really need more than a single point in Perception. There are plenty of mechanical aids to cover for or replace your natural perception ability that you can easily buy hits to pass a threshold 1 test, even if you are defaulting. As long as SOMEONE in the group has good perception, it isn't necessary for EVERYONE to have it.
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Derailing things slightly, I'd like to say that while I appreciated Jason Hardy's developer notes, they told me precisely nothing that I hadn't already heard from other channels or sources.
Banshee, on the other hand, is telling us all sorts of things that we didn't otherwise know as we all clamor for details.
@Banshee Thank you for taking part in the conversation to the extent that your NDA allows. I very much appreciate the time and effort of your outreach and I bet the others feel the same as well. You are the true developer's notes!
thanks, Shadowrun has been my passion from the very first day I picked up a copy 30 years ago and I have had the opportunity for several years now to do some fun things but helping develop the new edition is definitely number one ... so I love to talk about it.
I have SO many things I would love to openly discuss but that pesky NDA keeps getting in the way so I can only cover so much until the book is released publicly. Until then my plan is to do my best in at least trying to keep what information that is released accurate.
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Honestly, depending on your role, you don't really need more than a single point in Perception. There are plenty of mechanical aids to cover for or replace your natural perception ability that you can easily buy hits to pass a threshold 1 test, even if you are defaulting. As long as SOMEONE in the group has good perception, it isn't necessary for EVERYONE to have it.
A bunch of skills are like that. And given karma costs it’s why a lot of people don’t take them. Then learn that after the first run or two.
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I will say that while 3.5 DnD and Pathfinder that grew from it had their own issues, I would really like if Shadowrun got to that level of balanced ease and complexity that kept that tier of edition going. Honestly tho I don't really have suggestions on HOW that might happen, its more a feeling you get as you look over the way stuff is setup.
lore wise, I'm wondering how far away we might be from GitS level 'braincases' and full cyborg bodies, without all the essence issues/cyberzombie stuff. Or the Altered Carbon, 'full bio/etc enhanced sleeve and stacks', something to balance out the 'magic is king' feeling I feel sometimes with the setting.
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I will say that while 3.5 DnD and Pathfinder that grew from it had their own issues, I would really like if Shadowrun got to that level of balanced ease and complexity that kept that tier of edition going. Honestly tho I don't really have suggestions on HOW that might happen, its more a feeling you get as you look over the way stuff is setup.
lore wise, I'm wondering how far away we might be from GitS level 'braincases' and full cyborg bodies, without all the essence issues/cyberzombie stuff. Or the Altered Carbon, 'full bio/etc enhanced sleeve and stacks', something to balance out the 'magic is king' feeling I feel sometimes with the setting.
Maybe make essence a stat that can increase for mundanes so the only limit is more body location than essence. Like you can’t have 2 sets of slurs in the same spot.
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The fact that they have streamlined skills down that far is very encouraging. If they can actually balance the priority system this might actually be a playable edition. But the editing quality control will have to be about 500% better than it was in 5e. The editing issue will be the main reason that I will not be putting any money into this Sixth World until I see a SOLID block of positive reviews.