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Can mundanes see Sustained Spells?

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #15 on: <04-22-18/2015:15> »
After reading through I have to agree with Marcus et Al. I just don't see anything in your quotes that implies in any way that magic that isn't obvious (ie. Levitate, ward, etc.) can be seen by anyone after the casting. But let's assume you are correct for a minute.

Do you think foci sparkle as well? If so how do you justify people selling fake foci? How do you justify people having foci, powerful foci in fact, and not knowing it?

To requote the lore/fluff at the head of the "Noticing Magic" rules:

Quote from: SR5 pg 280
Magic is rarely subtle. Any form of magic (conjuring,
spellcasting, enchanting, magical lodges, spirits, etc.)
changes the world around it. Sometimes it’s obvious
through a magician’s gestures or incantations (magicians
seen by non-Awakened people are sometimes
called “twitchy fingers”). Spirits sometimes cause the
air to shimmer, even from astral space. People have reported
feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations
they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is
in the area.

Magic just sitting there in astral space is sufficient for "shimmers" to be perceptible, per the SR5 rulebook lore.  Explicitly in this example, spirits lurking purely in the astral.  The second sentence is explicit in saying any magic, and the following list is not said to be exhaustive nor exclusive, so yes.  I don't see how you can say either foci or sustained spells would be a form of magic that'd be excepted given there are no indications of exceptions being possible.

Now take in context the rules about bringing active magic through a Mana Barrier, and since unbonded/inactive foci are as unaffected as any mundane trinket, it stands as IMO reasonable that an unbonded/inactive focus does not cause "shimmering" in the physical world.

Quote
Do you have any novels where mundanes notice magic just because? Any piece of fluff? Anything that doesn't go against everything that is essentially Shadowrun?

Well using fluff outside of 5th edition sources is problematic, as quite simply stuff changes across editions.  Sometimes there's a reason given for the rules of the universe changing (e.g. Crash 2.0 justifying radically different matrix rules from prior editions) but more often there's not.  Vampires used to be able to have cyberware.  Astral sniping used to be possible.  Sometimes stuff just changes (and generally, for the better).  Whether mundanes ever could notice active magic before is besides the point.  In 5th edition, the rules sure say they can.
« Last Edit: <04-22-18/2023:04> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #16 on: <04-22-18/2040:17> »
As for my lack of answers to your points:  Yeah I've ignored them, but that's because I don't understand what you're getting at rather than bad faith arguing.  What about Geasa and optional rules render moot the rules as described in the core rulebook on pages 280-281?  Honestly.  Give me a citation and let me see what you're looking at, because I've played since 1st edition and I have what I consider to be a better than decent understanding of how the magic rules have changed over the editions and yet I still have no idea what you're talking about with regards to Geasa (they are voluntary restrictions on the performance of your magic as a means of making magic easier- it's been that way since the 1st ed Grimoire and confirmed for 5th in SG on pg 142).

I don't waste my time in bad faith arguing SSRD, you may not agree with my logic and that fine.  Disagreement is just going to be how it is at times and that's Life, but if i'm actually bothering to reply to you I mean it. I have also played sense First, I remember when adepts has auto successes. You have said in the past that you primarily play missions, I mix it a fair amount but I do missions as well. Your tendency to push ahead and not address language or definitional issue is one that I find troubling and one that has lead me to dismiss your arguments on several occasions.

Gease, implemented primarily as a way to regain magic loss due to essence loss, a use which sadly has not made its way forward, well other then blood crystal thingies. Now gease were varied, but the most common one in my experience was somatic and vocal components (See D&D), which just made spell casting obvious, but didn't make your active spells obvious. The Shamanic mask in original form was similar in that, Shamans when they a different thing from hermetic assumed when he/she was casting a spell, you took on your shamanic animal mask once again making kinda it obvious, you were getting your voodoo on.  Now that concept is updated in the New optional rules for Mentors Mask (182 FA). Which makes your spell effect and adept power visible but in-exchange decreases the drain values by 1. Yes it is an optional rule. But to me it's existence implies the need for something else to make your spell visibly detectable.  I don't know where you got the idea that an active spell is a ward, but it's not. A ward is ward, there have been different ward variants in the past, I don't recall if that made into 5th or not.

I didn't understand you, you haven't understood me; let's start on understanding one another.

To put what I've been saying differently, I'll re-quote the rules for noticing magic:

Quote from: SR5, Perceiving Magic: The entire rules block, pgs 280-281
Magic is rarely subtle. Any form of magic (conjuring,
spellcasting, enchanting, magical lodges, spirits, etc.)
changes the world around it. Sometimes it’s obvious
through a magician’s gestures or incantations (magicians
seen by non-Awakened people are sometimes
called “twitchy fingers”). Spirits sometimes cause the
air to shimmer, even from astral space. People have reported
feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations
they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is
in the area.

Noticing magic is a Simple Perception + Intuition
[Mental] Test with a threshold equal to the Skill Rating of
the being performing it minus the Force of the magic, or
6 – Force if there’s no skill involved (minimum 1 in either
case). For example, if a magician with Spellcasting 6 casts
a Force 4 manabolt, the threshold for spotting her do it
is 2 (Skill Rating 6 – Force 4). If you just stepped through
a Force 5 ward, the threshold to notice the markings or
feel the tingle is 1 (6 – Force 5). You get a + 2 dice pool
modifier on this test if you have any magic-related Active
or Knowledge Skill.

Obviously, if a magician is throwing fire from his fingertips,
you’re probably going to notice without making
a test. But if the magic is subtle, then you have to pick
up some dice.

Ok, the first paragraph is lore/fluff.  But as I mentioned in my post immediately before this one, the 2nd sentence of the 1st paragraph is pretty relevant.  ANY magic is potentially perceptible.  It does not say sustained spells are omitted.

On to the rules crunch: It provides 2 rules mechanics for perceiving magic.  The first case is used when a skill is involved.  Spellcasting, Conjuring, Enchanting, etc.  The second case is when a skill is not involved.  Surely Critter Powers, but I'm saying also Sustained Spells.  And I'm saying Sustained Spells, even though you do indeed use Spellcasting to cast them, you also use Ritual Spellcasting to cast Wards, and the example of a Ward says to ignore Ritual Spellcasting skill and go with the 6-F formula.  Since sustained spells fall under the umbrella of relevancy under these rules invoked by the language "any magic", they have to fall under one of the two rules mechanics.  We're not even disagreeing as to which mechanic to use; you're arguing with me about sustained spells satisfying the "any magic" language to be relevant to these rules!  If I was saying a security guard had to use the Mage's Spellcasting Skill-F instead of 6-F would we still be arguing?

With regards to trying to understand you: as far as the Shamanic Mask optional rules go, near as what I think you're talking about is in SG on page 192... but if so that's just saying use the rules we're discussing with a further +2 dice modifier for the observer.  It's hardly an argument to invalidate the rules it itself is referencing...  Some Geasa involving chanting/singing/whatever is really more of a reason to invoke the third quoted paragraph and say the perception test is flatly unnecessary.
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Rosa

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« Reply #17 on: <04-22-18/2212:29> »
So in essence if you truly could notice any spell of a sufficiently high level being sustained you have just invalidated every single stealthy spell and every single illusion spell in the books because it's apparently obvious to anyone that magic is going on. Pretty sucky to try an be invisible when your tracing magic sparkles in air around you.  One would assume that high level illusions and other stealthy spells were actually supposed to make it harder to be discovered not easier.

Obviously I'm with Marcus on this.

Marcus

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« Reply #18 on: <04-22-18/2220:24> »
For my part I understood you perfectly, and we don't agree. Further it looks pretty clearly we aren't going to agree. I say that rules you reference where skill is involved only works when the spell is cast (See Performed in rules quote we have thrown back forth through this whole set of threads). The concept of having to record your successes for each quickened spell and having to fresh check them in every scene has never been done and would be an pointless complicating mechanic to add, as it would very easy to manipulate to make it very hard to see (Regents would make it Skill-1 forever). Regardless it's not the case, it works as we already discussed. Sustained spells show up in the circumstances as discussed at some length.

As to your response to mentors mask, there has never been any way to see any internal active power on an adept before, the optional rule makes sustained spells and power visibly detectable, That's why they give you -1 drain discount which we all know is super rare mechanic to discount. You don't make an optional rule that gives meaningfully powerful bonus unless it has meaningfully powerful flaw to match it. (Which is 182 FA NOT SG, so I don't know if you are reading the right thing, but Mentor mask IS NOT in SG.)

If you try it your way and a caster has extended masking are you going to negate the whole purpose that meta-magic by having it show up anyway? As I recall There is no language in masking or extend-masking about hiding the spell from normal vision. Honestly your method would invalidate to many things. Further, there's no fluff to support it. Nothing in your little fluff opening discusses quickened spells, which as meta-magic effects are by definition powerful and subtle.

To conclude we don't agree. Sustained spells are detectable by astral sight, and under the other rare circumstance previously discussed, but not by a normal perception check unless you happen to be standing there when the spell is cast in front of you. I don't see ether one of us changing our minds, so ether appeal to higher authority, or agree to disagree. I'm content with ether option.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #19 on: <04-22-18/2228:54> »
So in essence if you truly could notice any spell of a sufficiently high level being sustained you have just invalidated every single stealthy spell and every single illusion spell in the books because it's apparently obvious to anyone that magic is going on. Pretty sucky to try an be invisible when your tracing magic sparkles in air around you.  One would assume that high level illusions and other stealthy spells were actually supposed to make it harder to be discovered not easier.

Obviously I'm with Marcus on this.

I can respect differences of opinion.  People are going to have them.  When it comes to arguing about what the rules say, well that can get into nitty gritty since we have a common, concrete point of reference and there's the distinct possibility (if not probability) that someone's simply mistaken about something.. and I indulge in order to find out if it's me :)

But opinions?  No point in arguing about them.  I do however want to quibble on a minor point of correction:  No, I wasn't saying stealth/illusion/invisibility is invalidated by being perceivable.  According to the lore/fluff, sure it can be shimmers, but it can also be simple chills or even an unexplained feeling of dread.  A security mook might realize something magic just happened, but that doesn't mean he knows it was an invisible shadowrunner sneaking past him.  He has no reason to know it wasn't a security mage or the mage's spirit or watcher checking in on said goon.  As the rule presents itself, perceiving magic is just a binary thing.  They either know magic is going on or they don't.  Doesn't mean they know what the magic is doing.  And the lore/fluff makes gives no indication that the intent is to negate invisibility by highlighting the subject in sparkles like a SR version of Faerie Fire.

To conclude we don't agree.

And that's a fair enough resolution.
« Last Edit: <04-22-18/2235:15> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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ShadowcatX

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« Reply #20 on: <04-23-18/0158:19> »
I'm not sure if you play pink mohawk or what but a lot of times in black trenchcoat a guard going "oh, magic is happening nearby" is totally the same as the guard going "invisibility was cast at force 6, armor is quickened at force 5, etc."

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« Reply #21 on: <04-23-18/0227:22> »
I'm not sure if you play pink mohawk or what but a lot of times in black trenchcoat a guard going "oh, magic is happening nearby" is totally the same as the guard going "invisibility was cast at force 6, armor is quickened at force 5, etc."

lol, yeah the illusion/invisibility issue will be a really wacky to address at SSDR tables, I almost wish i could be there first time it comes up. On the one hand high force invisibility will be hard to see through on the other high force invisibility will be really easy to spot lol. I guess the poor, poor mages at those tables will just have to learn to adapt fast. LOL I think there'll be a fair amount howling lol.



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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #22 on: <04-23-18/0235:15> »
I'm not sure if you play pink mohawk or what but a lot of times in black trenchcoat a guard going "oh, magic is happening nearby" is totally the same as the guard going "invisibility was cast at force 6, armor is quickened at force 5, etc."

Maybe so, but what more can I say?  The rules clearly say that any form of magic being present (including the specific example of a spirit doing nothing but being present astrally) there's a chance to perceive that magic is going on.  Certainly people don't have to like that it means mundanes can detect that magic is present.. but it's inarguable that the rules say that's indeed the case.

Honestly, I don't know what the big hangup is.  If an astral patroller sees the shadowrunner with sustained spells, the gig is still up anyway.  It's just a matter of mundane security still being relevant even if you use magic, and I can understand how that paradigm might be clashing with notions of how Shadowrun is supposed to work.
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Marcus

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« Reply #23 on: <04-23-18/0243:44> »
I'm not sure if you play pink mohawk or what but a lot of times in black trenchcoat a guard going "oh, magic is happening nearby" is totally the same as the guard going "invisibility was cast at force 6, armor is quickened at force 5, etc."

Maybe so, but what more can I say?  The rules clearly say that any form of magic being present (including the specific example of a spirit doing nothing but being present astrally) there's a chance to perceive that magic is going on.  Certainly people don't have to like that it means mundanes can detect that magic is present.. but it's inarguable that the rules say that's indeed the case.

Honestly, I don't know what the big hangup is.  If an astral patroller sees the shadowrunner with sustained spells, the gig is still up anyway.  It's just a matter of mundane security still being relevant even if you use magic, and I can understand how that paradigm might be clashing with notions of how Shadowrun is supposed to work.

Well I think you will find most everyone is going to disagree with you about what that rules actually says, and I suspect many will have a lot to say about it. But I really do wanna know how it turns out. So please do report back when it happens.

Best of luck.
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« Reply #24 on: <04-23-18/0308:20> »
I'm not sure if you play pink mohawk or what but a lot of times in black trenchcoat a guard going "oh, magic is happening nearby" is totally the same as the guard going "invisibility was cast at force 6, armor is quickened at force 5, etc."

Maybe so, but what more can I say?  The rules clearly say that any form of magic being present (including the specific example of a spirit doing nothing but being present astrally) there's a chance to perceive that magic is going on.  Certainly people don't have to like that it means mundanes can detect that magic is present.. but it's inarguable that the rules say that's indeed the case.

Honestly, I don't know what the big hangup is.  If an astral patroller sees the shadowrunner with sustained spells, the gig is still up anyway.  It's just a matter of mundane security still being relevant even if you use magic, and I can understand how that paradigm might be clashing with notions of how Shadowrun is supposed to work.

Well I think you will find most everyone is going to disagree with you about what that rules actually says, and I suspect many will have a lot to say about it. But I really do wanna know how it turns out. So please do report back when it happens.

Best of luck.

Well it very well could be a horror show, as the regular Missions GM for local play has been operating under the impression that Awakened means the same thing as Dual Natured, and as such mages have to test to go thru Wards even if no spells/foci are active, Indirect Combat Area spells allow a dodge test, and well lots of things that just presumably got decided over the course of play to keep a session from derailing over digging into rulebooks but have since become accepted/confused as being the actual rules.  This is just one of the many things, so yeah.  It's absolutely going to be a case of culture shock with different GMs, and as such it'll be important to let slide what truly is allowable to slide and pick battles to be stubborn on "well y'all have been doing it wrong the whole time, the rules actually say *this*"... 

Honestly haven't decided if this is going to be one of the chosen battles or to just let it go.  For the purposes of the forum discussion it's more appropriate to have a "you're wrong, but here's why" kind of discussion in a purely abstract sense than at a gaming table where people are naturally prone to be invested in an outcome... and thus coloring what should otherwise be a pure logic and reason discussion :)
« Last Edit: <04-23-18/0336:15> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Xenon

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« Reply #25 on: <04-23-18/0330:53> »
1. It is clear that magic in this edition is almost always obvious and doesn't require a test to notice at all (that you only need to take a test if magic is subtle to begin with).

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
Magic is rarely subtle...But if the magic is subtle, then you have to pick up some dice.


2. It is clear that the victim of a subtle manipulation spell can notice it.

SR5 p. 292 Manipulation Spells
A victim of mental manipulation spell may roll to notice the magical effect according to the usual rules for Perceiving Magic (p. 280). Some of the less subtle mental spells (Control Actions) are pretty obvious, but more subtle spells (like Control Thoughts) can be pretty insidious.


3. It is clear that mundanes in this edition can notice when an astral form passes through their aura.

SR5 p. 314 Astral Detection
Physical beings may sense when an astral form passes through their aura.


4. It is clear that anything active on the astral plane in this edition have an astral form.

SR5 p. 312
Anything active on the astral plane, including spirits, active foci, dual-natured beings, etc., has a tangible astral form.

SR5 p. 319 Foci
While activated, a focus also has an astral form.

SR5 p. 280 Magical Ldoges
Then spend a number of days equal to the lodge’s Force dedicating the space, setting up the physical components, building its astral form, setting up barriers, and harmonizing it to your aura.

SR5 p. 301 Spirit Basics
Spirits are naturally astral forms, much like you’re naturally a physical form.


5. It is clear that spirits in this edition cause the air to shimmer (which mundanes can notice).

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
Spirits sometimes cause the air to shimmer, even from astral space


6. It is clear that you in this edition can notice magic that is being cast

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
Sometimes it’s obvious through a magician’s gestures or incantations (magicians seen by non-Awakened people are sometimes called “twitchy fingers”).... For example, if a magician with Spellcasting 6 casts a Force 4 manabolt, the threshold for spotting her do it is 2 (Skill Rating 6 – Force 4).


7. It is clear that you in this edition can notice when magic is in the area

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
People have reported feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is in the area.


8. It is clear that mundanes in this edition can specialize in noticing magic

SR5 p. 314 Astral Detection
Security personnel are trained to recognize this feeling as a sign of an astral intruder. This specialization of Perception is called Numinous Perception, which includes both the chilly tingle of astral forms and the “bad vibes” of noticing magic (p. 280).




In this edition it is not clear that a sustained spell would be impossible to notice.





edit to rephrase my comments from "sometimes" to "can"
« Last Edit: <04-23-18/0519:26> by Xenon »

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #26 on: <04-23-18/0350:44> »
That's a lot of sometimes and have reported for "clearly". Lol

Xenon

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« Reply #27 on: <04-23-18/0415:06> »
That's a lot of sometimes ...
I updated the post to use the word "can" instead. Much better. Thanks for your comment :)

Marcus

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« Reply #28 on: <04-23-18/0907:15> »
That's a lot of sometimes ...
I updated the post to use the word "can" instead. Much better. Thanks for your comment :)


Oh Look another person who doesn't believes invisibility shouldn't work lol. I guess that group will be bigger then just SSDR, and Sphinx.
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SunRunner

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« Reply #29 on: <04-23-18/1042:39> »
I am generally with Marcus. You can notice spells when they are cast and in some other specified circumstances. Noticing spirits are present in the Astral is called out as being fluffy and mostly tied to the spirits being lazy and actually touching the mundanes aura, not if its sitting quietly in a corner no one is near. Also as Marcus pointed out if sustained spells are just obvious its self defeating. It also makes a bunch of meta magics worthless as he pointed out. The whole let me invest 2 metamagics worth of initiation(masking & extended masking) into it so that even mages cant tell I have physical mask up is unless they manage to break my masking meta magic or resist my physical mask spell is self defeating when they go i beat a thresh hold 1 perception test to see the magical sparkles around you because you cast a bad ass force 8 physical mask spell. It means mages are by default the Pinkest of Pink Mohawk characters unless and untill they get to a spell casting skill of 10+ so that even medium force spells require at least 3 or 4 hits to notice.

They have some specific rules like if your the target of a mental manipulation spell that get around this, also some of the spell descriptions themselves imply noticable effects that I would use to apply the notice a spell rules even when its being sustained. The armor spell is one of the top of my head as the spell description clearly states you have a nice magical force field glow around you while the spell is active. I also personally apply this to the ghostly Mostly invisible hands you get from the magic fingers spell to sight some specific examples. How ever there are some spells Like body glove, which is the Armor spell with a slightly higher drain code the specifies its the stealth ops version of the armor spell that functions like the armor spell in all ways just with out the distinctive glowing forcefield effect so you can have it active without the glow in the dark problem that prevents you from sneaking around. Also as pointed out pretty much the entire illusion school of magic gets invalidated by this approach, the whole point of them is you cant tell they are there unless you resist them which puts you into a catch 22 death spiral of I need high force so they are not resisted but if they are high force then every one just makes a basic perception test to see my magic sparkles. Thats why the illusion school has the realistic and obvious key words, cause some of the illusions have the obvious key word which means any one whos encounters the illusion knows its not real even if they dont resist it. The also have spells like deflection that state the effects are not really noticeable visually speaking but the results are noticeable, IE they state when some one is just sitting there making no attempt to dodge you shooting them but happens to have a force 12 deflection spell up so you keep missing them eventually you kinda get clued in something is going on that you cant see.

In the end you are choosing to read and interpret the rules a little different then most people I know who play the game. And that is ok and its always a learning process when you sit down at a new table to feel out the GM and see how he handles things. That being said they way you are interpreting things is so self defeating I cant accept that that is how it should work. Its like saying every point of armor you have give results in +1 DV when ever your shot. its like so If I am naked and the guy shoots me with a hold out pistol I only have to deal with 4 DV but because I am in heavy security armor I have to deal with 19 DV. WTF am I wearing armor for, its self defeating. Your making the only viable play style for a mage to be the pink mohawk combat mage that just floats down the middle of the street and is visible form low orbit by your naked eye because he is lit up brighter then most million candle spot lights because of his sustained spells. I cant influence the guards to do anything because as soon as he walks back in the guard shack and says everything is fine the other guards go Ohh your covered in magic sparkles hit the panic button and call in magic back up etc.
« Last Edit: <04-23-18/1046:35> by SunRunner »