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Neat combo?

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Rooks

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« on: <07-01-15/1504:33> »
Cyber Singularity Seeker 9 +2 Willpower
Redliner 10 +2 Str +2 Agi
Restricted Gear 10

BTH: Better Than Human 4.5 16R 275,000¥ (kinda of a waste on restricted gear this could have totally been reaction enhancers 2 and been within availablity 12)

+2 Str +2 Agi +3 Reaction +2 Willpower +2 soak +1d6 init dice -1 condition box and cyberlimbs to load up

ughsoclever

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« Reply #1 on: <07-02-15/1713:02> »
Neat, but the boosts to Str and Agi won't do you much if you've got 4 cyberlimbs, you'd end up using the limb ratings for pretty much everything.
(Unless they meant for the boost from redline added to the base stats of the limb? That'd be weird though.)

PiXeL01

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« Reply #2 on: <07-02-15/1807:14> »
Redliner would be boosting the limb stats or it would make no sense since the requirements are said limbs
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #3 on: <07-02-15/1905:04> »
Redliner would be boosting the limb stats or it would make no sense since the requirements are said limbs

No it's boosting Your Attributes, this is to help the sinkhole that Cyberlimb characters get stuck in. That's Movement & Physical Limit... either those are dump stats which makes Cyberlimbs be a worthwhile option but then get tripped up by those 2 things or your Attributes are high enough that going Cyberlimbs is stupid since it's cheaper (nuyen & essence) to just raise your Attributes themselves with 'ware.

Redliner penalizes your Physical Damage Track by -2 instead of a +4 bonus which makes this a not awesome trade off. Makes what would be a Tank pretty squishy against another Hard Target. Now I don't think that the BTH is is the best Cybersuite from Lockdown, the best is Super Athlete but BTH is the 3rd best one and its barely usable which is still better than the rest cause they are Not Good! The Cybersuite concept provided in Lockdown works great for a Video Game mechanic but in the RPG I feel it falls apart by depriving any Customization or Options. The Super Athlete is just so POWERFUL it overcomes it's limitations & Front Line Mind is right there behind it. Better than Human works decently by providing a lot of choices in cyberlimb gizmos, the issue is if you have to use the Stock Limbs provided in the Suite or can you substitute Custom Cyberlimbs in and pay more? If your GM says the second option than its usable but if it's the first option than it becomes as much trash as the rest of the Cybersuites.

All in all I fell like Redliner was as much of a let down as most of the rest was. If it only canceled the bonus to the PD Track then it wouldn't be that bad & might make fully cybered characters viable. Instead it took away one of their Strengths & turned it into a Weakness, doubtful enough to compensate for their inherent handicap they already had in comparison to other Street Sam builds.

PiXeL01

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« Reply #4 on: <07-02-15/2013:11> »
Yet if you read it, all it is talking about is Cyberlimbs. Your Cyberlimbs are jacked to the max that is why they get it. You lose boxes because not only are you stressing the hardware you are stressing your body too. It is away for people to throw karma at getting that last augmented point that they normally could not get. Whether the meat side of things also it is up in the air. As written I would say yes ...
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

ughsoclever

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« Reply #5 on: <07-02-15/2037:20> »
PiXeL01, now that I look at it I think your interpretation makes sense. Otherwise it'd be a fairly pointless quality. I can't think of any tests that wouldn't use the arms and legs, so your natural attributes would pretty much never come into play. Especially if you rule that agility upgrades on legs increase your movement rate (seems they should, otherwise agility upgrades on legs are pointless).

Also, from a fluff standpoint, it seems weird that redlining your metal arms and legs would make your meat torso stronger.

If all it does is increase some stats for the purpose of movement rate and physical limit, there are much better and cheaper ways to do that.

I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #6 on: <07-02-15/2051:41> »
Yet if you read it, all it is talking about is Cyberlimbs. Your Cyberlimbs are jacked to the max that is why they get it. You lose boxes because not only are you stressing the hardware you are stressing your body too. It is away for people to throw karma at getting that last augmented point that they normally could not get. Whether the meat side of things also it is up in the air. As written I would say yes ...

You could be right... there are so many holes in this book I now now the Pain that Street Grimore caused (though Ways were cool & they addressed the problem of Upgrading Foci which this book still failed at.) But that would make this Quality Complete Trash!!!! It still doesn't address the Movement or Physical Limit Sinkholes that fully Cybered characters fall into. That last +1 is meaningless when you are using Str & Agi as semi dump stats. If you raise them high enough to have a decent Movement & Physical Limit, then getting Cyberlimbs is dumb. Just raise the Attributes themselves with Ware. It's already  ¥72k per limb to get Str 6/Agi 9, Armor 3... ×4 = ¥288k & 4 points of Essence. That's before investing in Reaction & Initiative.... which a Street Sam needs badly. The Essence cost is restricting you to Synaptic Booster which is about 100k a Rating.

Rooks

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« Reply #7 on: <07-02-15/2242:21> »
Then again you are getting 2 str 2 agi and 2 wp all of which can now be placed into body to recoup your condition boxes and increase soak

astaroth999

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« Reply #8 on: <07-05-15/0251:06> »
Yet if you read it, all it is talking about is Cyberlimbs. Your Cyberlimbs are jacked to the max that is why they get it. You lose boxes because not only are you stressing the hardware you are stressing your body too. It is away for people to throw karma at getting that last augmented point that they normally could not get. Whether the meat side of things also it is up in the air. As written I would say yes ...

You could be right... there are so many holes in this book I now now the Pain that Street Grimore caused (though Ways were cool & they addressed the problem of Upgrading Foci which this book still failed at.) But that would make this Quality Complete Trash!!!! It still doesn't address the Movement or Physical Limit Sinkholes that fully Cybered characters fall into. That last +1 is meaningless when you are using Str & Agi as semi dump stats. If you raise them high enough to have a decent Movement & Physical Limit, then getting Cyberlimbs is dumb. Just raise the Attributes themselves with Ware. It's already  ¥72k per limb to get Str 6/Agi 9, Armor 3... ×4 = ¥288k & 4 points of Essence. That's before investing in Reaction & Initiative.... which a Street Sam needs badly. The Essence cost is restricting you to Synaptic Booster which is about 100k a Rating.

Actually i feel that with Chrome Flesh, cyberlimb is very comparable to straight up augmentation, and maybe even stronger for a Street Sam. The reasons are:-
(1) Cheapish essences and nuyen initiave combo that allows your Sam to get decent initiative score without investing too much,
(2) Internal router allows you to use all the wireless goodies without fear of bricking (cyberlimbs have quite a number of them)
(3) Skimmers double your movement rate 
(4) Cyberlimb optimization for that 2 extra dice pool + 4 increase physical limit for a particular skill.
(5) Biocompatibility Quality is just icing that allows you to cramp more into Sam (this quality affects cyberlimb Sam more than normal Sam, who usually will go more for bioware)
(6) Fundamentally, cyberlimb is not really much more expensive essence and nuyen wise vs going ware. It is just that most people did not price in the armor benefit vs bone lacing and orthoskin. i.e. 4 full obvious limb [2 armor, 6 str, 6 agi, Optimisation] is 4 essence and 212k nuyen vs used R3 Toner & Augmentation, Aluminium lacing and R3 Orthoskin of 3.25 and 177.75k nuyen. R3 Agi or Str enhancement cost 19.5k for each limb.

Both the qualities cyber singularity seeker (CSS) and redliner are a steal is terms of karma effectiveness.
(1) CSS is effectively equivalent to 45 karma if your starting will power is 3 and 65 karma if your starting willpower is 5.
(2) For redliner, whichever way you read it, it is very strong.
     (a) if it adds 4 stats to your meat body, that is equivalent to a priority upgrade for stats (from priority C to B or from B to A), or in terms of augmentation, a rating 2 muscle augmentation (50k nuyen and 2 essence) or a R2 muscle toner and augmentation (126k and 0.8 essence).
     (b) If it adds to the cyberlimbs itself, then the cyberlimb can augmented up to at 11 agi and str for a human. A very significant improvement in combat capability. It will also allow you to start with a 8 Agi and Str just via cyberlimb customisation.
     (c) The loss of 2 physical condition box is not very meaningful because going cyberlimb allows you to easily stack armor high into the low or mid 20s. Most attacks against you should be doing stun rather than physical damage.

I have created a cyberlimb Sam as an example to illustrate its viability. This is assuming worst case that redliner adds 4 to meat stats. If redliner adds to cyberlimb, you can always go elf, or a sum-to-10 human to rearrange the priority. You should get back a very similar stat arrangement (but with less karma), and a significant increase in combat efficiency of an additional 2 agi and str. it will also allow you to delay some of the cyberlimb upgrades, that you effectively use the nuyen to get better iniative augmentation

Key strengths:-
(1) 19 DP for assault rifle (9 cyberlimb + 8 skills & spec + 2 smartlink). Recoil compensation 9 (2 Ares Alpha + 3 Str + 3 Gas vent + 1 shock pad)
(2) 19 DP unarmed (9 cyberlimb + 8 skills & spec + 2 cyberlimb optimisation). Spurs DV 12, AP -2, Accuracy 10 (6 physical limit, 4 cyberlimb optimisation) [Accuracy 8 if you are using skimmers]
(3) 26 armor (10 cyberlimb + 13 sleeping tiger + 3 line coat) [another 2 more can be added to your cyberlimbs post creation, with nuyen and availability]
(4) High Willpower of 5
(5) Relatively high movement speed 16/32 with skimmers (equivalent to 8 agi)
(6) Decent physical limit of 6
(7) Except Logic at 2, all other stats are 3 or above. No true dump stat that will make GM mad at you
(8 ) Decent initiative score 14 + 2D6.
(9) Except for the +2DP from smartgun link, all wireless capable augmentation can be used without fear of bricking due to internal router
(10) Cyberlimb is cool!
                           


==Notes==
10 Karma to increase logic from 1 to 2
10 Karma to increase Nuyen by 20k
2 Kama to increase palming skill to 1
2 Karma to increase pilot ground craft to 1
11 Karma left to spend on qualities and skills
6.7k Nuyen left for ammo and misc equipment

== Info ==
Movement: 8/16  (16/32 with skimmers)
Human
Composure: 8
Judge Intentions: 9
Lift/Carry: 8 (45 kg/30 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 6700

== Priorities ==
Metatype: D - Human or Elf
Attributes: B - 20 Attributes
Special: E - Mundane
Skills: C - 28 Skills/2 Skill Groups
Resources: A - 450,000¥

== Attributes ==
BOD: 5
AGI: 2 (4) (2 from redliner)
REA: 5 (7)
STR: 1 (3) (2 from redliner)
CHA: 3
INT: 6
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
EDG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   0.34
Initiative:                14 + 2d6
Physical Damage Track:     9
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Limits ==
Physical:                  6
Mental:                    5
Social:                    4
   Vashon Island: Sleeping Tiger [+1] (Must be visible)
   Vashon Island: Synergist Business Line Longcoat [+1] (Must be visible)

== Active Skills ==
Automatics                 : 6 [Assault Rifles]   
Con                        : 1 [Fast Talk] 
Etiquette                  : 1                     
Gymnastics                 : 1               
Leadership                 : 1                   
Negotiation                : 1                   
Palming                    : 1                   
Perception                 : 4 [Visual]             
Pilot Ground Craft         : 1                   
Running                    : 1                     
Sneaking                   : 6 [Urban]           
Swimming                   : 1                   
Unarmed Combat             : 6 [Cyber Implants: Spurs]   

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Qualities ==
Redliner
Biocompatability (Cyberware)
SINner (Corporate)

== Lifestyles ==
Low  1 months

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Synaptic Acceleration (Standard)
Cybereyes Basic System Rating 3 (Alpha)
   +Image Link
   +Flare Compensation
   +Low-Light Vision
   +Smartlink
   +Thermographic Vision
   +Vision Magnification
Datajack (Alpha)
Internal Router (Alpha)
Obvious Full Arm (AGI 9, STR 9) (Left)  (Used)
   +Armor Rating 3
   +Customized Agility Rating 6
   +Customized Strength Rating 6
   +Cyberlimb Optimization (The Greatest)
   +Enhanced Agility Rating 3
   +Enhanced Strength Rating 3
   +Spurs
Obvious Full Arm (AGI 9, STR 9) (Right)  (Used)
   +Armor Rating 3
   +Customized Agility Rating 6
   +Customized Strength Rating 6
   +Cyberlimb Optimization (The Greatest)
   +Enhanced Agility Rating 3
   +Enhanced Strength Rating 3
   +Spurs
Obvious Full Leg (AGI 6, STR 6) (Right)  (Standard)
   +Armor Rating 2
   +Customized Agility Rating 6
   +Customized Strength Rating 6
   +Cyberlimb Optimization (The Greatest)
   +Skimmers
   +Cyber Holster
Obvious Full Leg (AGI 6, STR 6) (Left)   (Standard)
   +Armor Rating 2
   +Customized Agility Rating 6
   +Customized Strength Rating 6
   +Cyberlimb Optimization (The Greatest)
   +Skimmers
Reaction Enhancers Rating 2  (Alpha)

== Armor ==
Vashon Island: Sleeping Tiger       13
   +Custom Fit
   +Newest Model
   +Ruthenium Polymer Coating 3
Vashon Island: Synergist Business Line Longcoat3
   +Custom Fit (Stack)
   +Holster

== Weapons ==
Ares Alpha
   +Gas-Vent 3 System
   +Shock Pad
   +Personalized Grip
   +Smartgun System, Internal
   Pool: 10 (12)   Accuracy: 8   DV: 11P   AP: -2   RC: 8
Remington Suppressor
   +Gas-Vent 3 System
   +Personalized Grip
   +Smartgun System, External
   +Sound Suppressor
   Pool: 10   Accuracy: 9   DV: 7P   AP: -1   RC: 5
Spurs
   Pool: 10 (12)   Accuracy: 6   DV: 12P   AP: -2   RC: 2
Spurs
   Pool: 10 (12)   Accuracy: 6   DV: 12P   AP: -2   RC: 2
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 10   Accuracy: 6   DV: 3S   AP: -   RC: 2

== Commlink ==
Transys Avalon (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 6, FWL: 6)

== Gear ==
Fake SIN Rating 4
   +Fake License (Driver's License) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Concealed Carry Permit) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Firearms License) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Restricted Cyberware License) Rating 1

== Vehicles ==
Suzuki Mirage (Racing Bike)
   +Sensor Array Rating 2
« Last Edit: <07-05-15/0442:34> by astaroth999 »

I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #9 on: <07-05-15/0335:20> »
Your Legs at Availability 14 are Illegal without 2 Restricted Gear Quality which in itself is illegal. I'm working on a Prime Runner Sum to Ten build right now, mainly to avoid the Availability issue that makes yours invalid. Though I'm going the other way with them to shove go much stuff in them it's falling out, you'd be surprised at how fast 86 Capacity fills up. I'll post it once it's finished, I finally got the 'ware figured out or at least figured out that cramming more in is no longer feasible cause those limbs get super expensive super fast.

Steamers full of NeuroStun & an Internal Air Tank might be my favorite part of it I came up with.
« Last Edit: <07-05-15/0341:53> by I_AM_ZHOUL!!! »

astaroth999

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« Reply #10 on: <07-05-15/0354:55> »
Your Legs at Availability 14 are Illegal without 2 Restricted Gear Quality which in itself is illegal. I'm working on a Prime Runner Sum to Ten build right now, mainly to avoid the Availability issue that makes yours invalid. Though I'm going the other way with them to shove go much stuff in them it's falling out, you'd be surprised at how fast 86 Capacity fills up. I'll post it once it's finished, I finally got the 'ware figured out or at least figured out that cramming more in is no longer feasible cause those limbs get super expensive super fast.

You are right, it is illegal! Did not realise the optimization added +2 availability, and my chummer didnt track the availability properly. Anyway I edited the build above. I added the quality biocompatibility and reduce the grades for both legs to standard from alpha to make it legal again. Also drop the grades for the cyberarms to used from standard. Using the freed up cash to get synaptic acceleration instead of boosted reflex and 2 additional armor for the cyberarms. Dropping them to used grade allow me to pick up the 3rd armor rating. Net change is  -5 karma, but gain 1 initiative and 1 defense pool, +2 armor and increase my remaining essence to 0.34 from 0.16. Come to think of it. This is in fact more efficient than the first build. hahahah
« Last Edit: <07-05-15/0450:37> by astaroth999 »

I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #11 on: <07-05-15/0640:01> »
Your Legs at Availability 14 are Illegal without 2 Restricted Gear Quality which in itself is illegal. I'm working on a Prime Runner Sum to Ten build right now, mainly to avoid the Availability issue that makes yours invalid. Though I'm going the other way with them to shove go much stuff in them it's falling out, you'd be surprised at how fast 86 Capacity fills up. I'll post it once it's finished, I finally got the 'ware figured out or at least figured out that cramming more in is no longer feasible cause those limbs get super expensive super fast.

You are right, it is illegal! Did not realise the optimization added +2 availability, and my chummer didnt track the availability properly. Anyway I edited the build above. I added the quality biocompatibility and reduce the grades for both legs to standard from alpha to make it legal again. Also drop the grades for the cyberarms to used from standard. Using the freed up cash to get synaptic acceleration instead of boosted reflex and 2 additional armor for the cyberarms. Dropping them to used grade allow me to pick up the 3rd armor rating. Net change is  -5 karma, but gain 1 initiative and 1 defense pool, +2 armor and increase my remaining essence to 0.34 from 0.16. Come to think of it. This is in fact more efficient than the first build. hahahah

Getting closer to my build now... Drop the Legs to used to get Didigrade and you're set. Prime Runner let's you add Bulk Modification for even more gooey goodness. I think the Steamers full of NeuroStun & an Internal Air Tank will be the funniest thing in a while. But Redliner is still trash... imagine Narco & Pharmaceutical Grade Kamikaze! Way better than Redliner... + 6 Boxs for Physical (need some where to offload that Stun Damage), +2 Body, +1 Strength, +2 Willpower, +2d6 Initiative, +2 Physical Limit, & High Pain Tolerance 3. All for the low low cost of an Addiction Threshold 2 or 1 roll every other week against 10 dice if not Addicted or 14 if Addicted (no real reason not to start at Mild for the Karma.) Cyber Singularity is worth it in my opinion & greatly shores up traditionally the Street Sams most well known weakness. Willpower 5(7) or (9) on Kamikaze. Shake off Stunbolts like rain once the Mages counterspelling dice get added on. Still trying to make that Pain Editor fit though (it's a pain that I haven't been able to overcome that last hurdle stopping it from perfection.) I might have to bite the bullet and drop my Rating 4 Hydraulic Jacks, I just really wanna be able to jump off 4 story roofs for fun.

Critiques on what you have so far. Datajack=Waste... get a commlink, you'll get DNI & not waste Essence for it. Internal Router=Waste... you don't have much that gives Wireless bonuses & what you do have you already have a Neural Connection to so activating it is a free action. (A) Reaction Enhancers 2=Waste... (U) Reaction Enhancers 3 is better in every way & about the same cost. Cybereyes=Giant Waste! Get a SmartLink in your eyes... you A. Waste Essence & Nuyen B. Leave your eyes open to bricking to blind you (kinda makes the Internal Router a complete and total Waste) C. Vision Enhancement 3 in Contacts (they have to be Wireless anyways) the rest goes into Glasses for everyday wear & a Ballistic Mask for Runs.

Oh... because it's such a heinous assault upon everyone who has the misfortune that happens to see you, Never Stack Sleeping Tiger with a Synergist Line Coat!!!!! Wearing a Sleeping Tiger is bad enough in Public especially since you aren't an Ork or Troll, but committing a fashion faux paus of that caliber should generate a crowd of villagers with pitchforks & torches to chase you out of town like Frankenstein Monster!!!!! Also... Ballistic Masks are cooler, conceal your identity, & don't ruin the -2 Penalty to Perception Checks from Ruthenium Coating.
« Last Edit: <07-05-15/0715:36> by I_AM_ZHOUL!!! »

Rooks

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« Reply #12 on: <07-05-15/0819:30> »
could also take the Adapsin gene therapy for 16 avail 30k for an additional 10% reduction to essence costs (its like having that o body type from 4th edition augmentation) (actually no that gives you delta grade essence cost from standard grade augmentations + biocompatability thats like gamma level grade)
« Last Edit: <07-05-15/0822:38> by Rooks »

PiXeL01

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« Reply #13 on: <07-05-15/0821:34> »
Sadly you'd need to take at creation or it doesn't.
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #14 on: <07-05-15/0857:13> »
could also take the Adapsin gene therapy for 16 avail 30k for an additional 10% reduction to essence costs (its like having that o body type from 4th edition augmentation) (actually no that gives you delta grade essence cost from standard grade augmentations + biocompatability thats like gamma level grade)


It's not even close to Type O System, that's another 10 Karma Quality & ¥30k for a .3ish amount of Essence. Type O System would get you full points of Essence Reduction & coupled with the way Essence holes worked you could easily get 10 points of 'ware into a character out of Chargen. (I once got over 11 points in a Thought Exercise Character but it wasn't as good as my 10 essence build.)

I've tried everything to shoehorn more into this cyberlimb character but Adapsin didn't really cut it & I really want a Pain Editor to fit. Can't do both. It has it's place but I'm having a hard time justifying it even in a +6 essence in cyber alone character.