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Light Machine Guns useless?

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CanRay

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« Reply #15 on: <12-06-13/1328:17> »
Because with an LMG you can do this.  :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tpsTDOVV4g (jump to about 45 seconds into the movie).
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Xenon

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« Reply #16 on: <12-07-13/0933:33> »
@OP

LMGs are great for suppressive fire
LMGs are great as vehicle mounted weapons (you use sensors as limit and not accuracy of the weapon when you remote control them)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #17 on: <12-07-13/0939:44> »
I think converting any gun on a mount into a belt-fed weapon was a mistake, by the way. It takes the advantage of MGs away. If an Ares Alpha on a mount has the same ammo size as an LMG on a mount, then there's no use for the LMG unless you make it a Gatling.
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BaronBanana

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« Reply #18 on: <12-08-13/1049:19> »
I think converting any gun on a mount into a belt-fed weapon was a mistake, by the way. It takes the advantage of MGs away. If an Ares Alpha on a mount has the same ammo size as an LMG on a mount, then there's no use for the LMG unless you make it a Gatling.

My thoughts exactly, so i hope at least the extended clip (100er belt) option will not be included in Run and Gun book.

DWC

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« Reply #19 on: <12-08-13/1252:40> »
I think converting any gun on a mount into a belt-fed weapon was a mistake, by the way. It takes the advantage of MGs away. If an Ares Alpha on a mount has the same ammo size as an LMG on a mount, then there's no use for the LMG unless you make it a Gatling.

My thoughts exactly, so i hope at least the extended clip (100er belt) option will not be included in Run and Gun book.

I'm afraid it will be, along with the option to make any weapon FA.  Then the Crockett will make machineguns AND assault rifles obsolete.

Sendaz

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« Reply #20 on: <12-08-13/1408:42> »


I'm afraid it will be, along with the option to make any weapon FA. 
Hmmm... even Assault Cannons? ;)
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #21 on: <12-08-13/1659:40> »
I think converting any gun on a mount into a belt-fed weapon was a mistake, by the way. It takes the advantage of MGs away. If an Ares Alpha on a mount has the same ammo size as an LMG on a mount, then there's no use for the LMG unless you make it a Gatling.

My thoughts exactly, so i hope at least the extended clip (100er belt) option will not be included in Run and Gun book.

I'm afraid it will be, along with the option to make any weapon FA.  Then the Crockett will make machineguns AND assault rifles obsolete.
Not entirely, since the Alpha still comes with 2 inherent RC. And the downside of extended drum is that it costs capacity, so costs you space for other modifications. But my Missions character can't wait until he can mod his EBR. :)
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Automaton

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« Reply #22 on: <12-09-13/0554:08> »
Someone allready did the conversions from Arsenal to 5e.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #23 on: <12-09-13/0700:46> »
It's nice to use if you can't wait, but I wouldn't rely on it. It's also rather outdated, such as Savalette Guardian: BF is already possible as Complex for an SA weapon in SR5. Meanwhile, 7 Accuracy for every Sniper Rifle and 4 for every Shotgun sounds like an easy way out by overly generalizing, I'd expect differences there, just like in the Core Shotguns and Sniper Rifles.
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frankhlane

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« Reply #24 on: <12-14-13/2316:30> »
My wager is that we're going to see LMG and MMG have their damage raised to match the light and medium damage assault rifles.  Then with the recoil penalty they will be balanced with ARs.
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The other Bandit

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« Reply #25 on: <12-16-13/1326:13> »
Hm maybe light machine guns should just have more built in recoil reduction? Today some light machine guns shoot the same caliber round as carbines and assault rifles but are much heavier, that should help with recoil shouldnt it?

Imagine a light machine gun with 4 points build in recoil reduction, gas vent 2 and foregrip on a gyrostabilizer firering multiple long bursts without having to stop to let the recoil settle back. Sounds very LMG to me.

martinchaen

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« Reply #26 on: <12-16-13/1533:36> »
The other Bandit If you've ever fired (or rather, tried to fire) an LMG from a standing position, you'd know that a heavier weapon does not for less recoil make.

During my service, we got to fire 200 7.62mm rounds from a German Rheinmetall MG-3 downrange at a full-size target (human adult equivalent), and the muzzle climb is so atrocious that I hit the target with two rounds. Scary as hell, yes. Effective as a suppressive weapon, yes. Accurate? Not only no, but hell no!
(In my defense, my first couple of rounds hit the piece of wood holding up the target and it fell over, but that still does not make up for a 2% accuracy ratio...)

Higher damage would be my best estimate. The same 7.62mm round impacts with approximately similar kinetic energy when fired from a shorter-barreled H&K G3 assault rifle as it does when fired from an MG-3; the MG has the advantage of proper bipod and tripod mounts, a barrel that can actually sustain 200 rounds of fire in a short time (20-25 rounds per second, in real life), a belt feed, and a quick-swap barrel. Despite that, the muzzle velocity and the mass of the round are still the major factors in terms of damage output.

The G3 would buckle from the heat of sustained fire long before the MG-3 did, but this is not reflected in SR5 game mechanics as barrel wear is not an issue.

To me, SR5 is more of a squad based system than all-out war. Most armies in the world do not make their soldiers carry emplacement-size MGs around with them, because these types of weapons are better suited for entrenched positions; the squad based weapons of modern warfare are almost exclusively lighter, smaller caliber, rapid fire weapons as opposed to the machine guns of World War I and II such as the MG-42.

A troll-sized metahuman might change the need for setup time, but it's still a glaringly obvious weapon. My Troll ganger-level character has had tons of fun running around with an Ingram Valiant when an Ares Alpha would have been "better", because with his relative skill a suppressive fire zone allowed him to a) scare the fuck out of the opposition, B) engage more targets, and C) introduce a dice pool penalty to the opposition. An AR can realistically do two (three in the case of one particular rifle) suppressive fire actions before reloading, while an MG can do 5. I think they are fine, statistically, for what they do...

Think of the Ingram Valiant more as the M249 chambered for 5.56mm, the Stoner-Ares M202 as the MG-42 (or more recent MG-3) or FN MAG (aka M240) chambered for 7.62mm, and the RPK HMG as the timeless Browning M2 heavy machine gun chambered for massive 12.7mm rounds, and you'll have an accurate representation of what I believe MGs are like in SR5.

CanRay

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« Reply #27 on: <12-16-13/1701:37> »
Think of the Ingram Valiant more as the M249 chambered for 5.56mm, the Stoner-Ares M202 as the MG-42 (or more recent MG-3) or FN MAG (aka M240) chambered for 7.62mm, and the RPK HMG as the timeless Browning M2 heavy machine gun chambered for massive 12.7mm rounds, and you'll have an accurate representation of what I believe MGs are like in SR5.
"Jake, put the HMG down.  No, Jake, I don't care if you're a Troll, it's a HMG, don't try to fire it from your shoulder!  JAKE!  JAKE!!!  ...  Oh Ghost, thank goodness you're OK!  Yeah, OK.  Someone order Jake a new shoulder!"
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martinchaen

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« Reply #28 on: <12-16-13/1819:39> »
I'm just nitpicking at this point, but an M2 does not have all that terrible recoil if fired in semi-automatic mode; because it's based on a cannon type weapon, it has both a fluid barrel mount and can be equipped with a honkin' big muzzle brake which greatly disperses the escaping gases, reducing shoulder recoil substantially. Carlos Hathcock did just this during the Vietnam war, setting the world record for longest sniper kill with a mostly unmodified M2 with a telescopic sight, a record I believe stood for a good 30 years.

The Barret M82A1 Anti-Materiel rifle and several other 12.7mm (.50 caliber) rifles are all made on the same principle; by comparison, my Sako TRG-42 chambered for .338 rounds and with a 28" barrel with a 10-in-1 twist kicked like a freakin' mule because it did not have a muzzle brake nor did it have a free floating barrel mount.

And any troll with STR 10, the requirement to wield an HMG and more than 3 times the strength of an "average" human", should easily be able to absorb the recoil of such a weapon, even on full auto. If you haven't already seen the videos, look up Elephant Rifle on youtube. That's what would likely happen to the average human trying to wield such a "rifle", in my not so humble opinion...
« Last Edit: <12-16-13/1824:52> by martinchaen »

Dragonslayer

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« Reply #29 on: <12-16-13/1837:09> »
Because with an LMG you can do this.  :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tpsTDOVV4g (jump to about 45 seconds into the movie).
Recon by fire?

That is so not a viewpoint I want my players to have.

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