Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Typhus on <09-18-21/1410:38>

Title: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Typhus on <09-18-21/1410:38>
I'm not certain I can fully grok the rules here.

What I'm wondering about is: Can I (for example) shoot two pistols at the same time at the same target?

The Multiple Attacks minor action specifies "two different targets", as does the Burst fire firing mode.  Its pretty clear that if I want to attack two different targets, I would split the dice pool and make 2 attacks.  That all makes sense.  It's less clear to me (unless I am missing a later rule) that it's allowable to do a double SA strike on the same target.

Maybe that's the correct read though?  It would make more sense to handle a double SA attack as a narrow burst mechanically anyway, since it also seems a like cheesing the rules to could get a higher baseline DV applied from two pistols than from a single 4 round burst, when you are really sending the same number of rounds at the target.  The "treat as narrow burst" ruling seems simpler. 

Edit: The combat section say this though:

"When making multiple attacks, divide your attacking dice pool by the number of attacks made as evenly as possible."  Does this mean one can use two guns as I'm asking about, or that the Multiple Attacks minor action rule text still applies?  (I would think it does, but I may be wrong)

Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Xenon on <09-18-21/1655:43>
If you wield only one weapon then you can not make more than one attack against the same target in that action phase (but you can fire more than one bullet at the same target, just that it will be resolved as one single burst attack). In Semi Auto you also have the option to attack three different targets, in Burst fire you have the option to attack two different targets and in Full Auto you have the option to fire at anything that moves within a frontal cone AoE via suppressive fire.

If you wield one weapon in each hand then you can aim at two targets and pull each trigger at the same time and resolve each attack as an individual attack (by splitting your pool and taking multiple attacks. Not clear what will happen if you aim both weapons at the same target and then pull both triggers.

Since the attack is called Multiple Attacks (and not Multiple Targets) I would like to think that you resolve it as two different attacks against the same target (that this is one of the few advantages of dual wielding). This is also how we rule it.

They hint about this in the Throw Weapon section.

SR5 p. 166 Throw Weapon
Multiple readied throwing weapons can be thrown at a target within Short or Medium range by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action

And Multiple Attacks on p. 110 only mention multiple attacks, not multiple targets.

But the rules are not very clear on this matter!
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Typhus on <09-18-21/1810:53>
Looks like there are rules to do it either way, just wondering if there's an intended version, or vagueness on purpose, or what. 

Since adding bullets scales differently, I feel like treating it as a burst for guns, but two separate rolls for multiple melee or thrown weapons makes enough sense to run with if there is an absence of a clear official rule.
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-19-21/0008:56>
There isn't an allowance for "dual wielding", per se.  At least not in the sense of spending 1 major action to attack with 2 different weapons.

If you are going all Wolverine with cyberspurs in each arm, the sad truth is there's technically no difference between spending 2 majors for right and left, and 2 majors to attack twice with right or left.  Well, not including the potential for off hand penalties anyway...

Now, 5e had its own semi-official, SRM campaign rule to cover dual wielding: if you use two identical weapons you gain +1 reach when attacking with either one.  So in the wolverine example, you're still only making 1 spur attack per attack but threatening with a pair is at least giving you something of a benefit.  Of course that can't be directly ported into 6e, but since reach and other factors are combined together into AR, I could see granting an AR bonus to one weapon's attack when dual wielding.
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Typhus on <09-19-21/0213:15>
I assume you mean "dual wielding" in sense that it's against a single target?

Assuming true, I guess that answers my question.  There is no rule, and further it's not intended to be allowed, despite how illogical that is.

Realistically, if i can look left, and go "pew pew" with one gun, and then look right and go "pew pew" with the the other, then I have the time to simply look straight ahead and go " pew pew + pew pew".  I think I've posted my own fix to that, at least with guns.  Treat as Narrow Burst.  Two BF attacks would be -6AR for a +3 to damage or something.

I get that you don't want to allow two separate baseline DV occurrences against the same target with the same action.  That math is lousy. 
However, per the thrown weapons rule, those weapons get to do exactly that. 

Boosting AR for dual wielding melee weapons seems reasonable, tho not very satisfying.  Also runs afoul of the off hand penalty.  If its a single roll, should it get Edge or not?  Etc, etc.  Melee definitely gets trickier.

Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Xenon on <09-19-21/0438:23>
Shit. Just realized that we are talking about CRB Seattle Edition and not CRB 5th Edition (my answer above and quotes are for 5th edition)!



In 6th edition prior Seattle it was explicitly mentioned that multiple attacks could be used against multiple targets or twice against the same target. Reinforcing my reading of how it worked. This was also clarified in SRM for 6th edition.

SR6 p. 110 Off-Hand Attacks
If you’re attacking with two hands, the attack from your primary hand can still gain and spend Edge; for other rules, see Multiple Attacks below.

SR6 p. 111 Multiple Attacks
This can be against multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target.

SRM - When do I use Multiple Attack and when do I use Firing Modes? How do they interact?
The ONLY time you use Multiple Attacks with firearms is when you are simultaneously attacking with more than one gun.

We read this as if you are dual wielding you can take one attack action with each weapon as part of the same major attack action by also taking a multiple attacks minor action and splitting the pool. No matter if used to attack two different targets once each or if attacking the same target twice.



However, with the recent Seattle Update, this line of text in SR6 have been revoked. Which seem to indicate that this is no longer RAI...!

It still seem as if you have the option to attack different targets with different weapons (for example a pistol and a sword, two pistols or a sword and an axe) in the same major action by using the multiple attack minor action (it have now been clarified that multiple attacks minor action is not used with just one firearm). But it does no longer seem to be RAI that you attack the same target twice (which I think is sad, it used to be one of the few things promoting dual wielding pistols or axes or swords etc).

We will probably still rule it that way, but after the change of wording I think I will have a much harder time argue that this is actually also supported by the rules :-(
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Xenon on <09-19-21/0453:26>
For melee we rule that you can take the multiple attacks minor action to attack multiple targets with the same weapon (you don't have the same restriction here as with a single firearm that never uses the multiple attacks minor action).

And if you dual wield we (at least used to, and probably still will) rule that you also have the option to attack the same target once with each weapon (melee+melee, melee+range or range+range - same rule) by taken the multiple attack minor action and resolve it as two separate attacks. Off-hand penalties applying to the off-hand attack as normal.


And for throwing weapons we ruled the same here as well. That you can attack multiple targets, once with each readied throwing weapon. Or throwing multiple throwing weapons against the same target. In both cases by adding a multiple attacks minor action and splitting the pool. Treating each throwing weapon as its own attack.

This keeps it consistent (for us) no matter what type of weapon you are using.

One weapon? you can only attack the same target once. Two weapons at the same time? You can attack the same target twice by splitting the pool and adding a multiple attack minor action.



edit: It would be great to get some sort of clarification on how to officially resolve the situation where a player aim two single shot guns at the head of one single target and then pull both triggers at the same time.
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: MercilessMing on <09-19-21/1103:17>
For melee we rule that you can take the multiple attacks minor action to attack multiple targets with the same weapon (you don't have the same restriction here as with a single firearm that never uses the multiple attacks minor action).

I'm retreading a bit of old ground, but I'd like to get some clarification on Firing Modes and Multiple Attacks now that we have new errata.  Just want to keep things clear.

Quote from: SR6 3rd Printing pg 109
Every ranged weapon can fire in Single Shot (SS) mode, even if that option is not explicitly listed. Many guns have additional modes available: Semi-Automatic (SA), Burst Fire (BF), and Fully Automatic (FA). These firing modes offer tactical options at the expense of overall accuracy. They do not require use of Multiple Attacks (p. 42).
"They do not require the use of Multiple Attacks (pg 42)".  That's not the same as: "They never use/they do not use/they cannot be used with  Multiple Attacks (pg 42)".  I'm not a fan of that wording.  I get that Burst Fire wide and Full Auto do not use Multiple Attacks minor when they attack multiple targets.  But if I have the question of whether I can use SS, SA, or BF (narrow) with the Multiple Attacks minor, I don't have a clear answer.  SS is mentioned separately from SA/BF/FA so I might glean that SS does require use of the Multiple Attacks minor when attacking multiple targets.  But where is a statement that SA and BF narrow can or cannot be combined with Multiple Attacks?  I believe the RAI is that you cannot make Multiple Attacks with SA and BF narrow - only SS and BF wide (I'm not counting FA because it doesn't follow the Multiple Attacks split mechanic).  But I have nothing to back that up.  To me, the plain reading of the rules is that Multiple Attacks allows you to make more than one attack action with the same Major, and Firing Modes are changes to your attack action.  Therefore one attack action could be a narrow burst and so could the second.  If the statement "They do not require use of Multiple Attacks (pg 42)" was supposed to clarify this point, I think it missed.  Going off RAW I would allow someone to make multiple attacks in SA and BF narrow mode and wouldn't require them to use the Multiple Attacks minor, because firing modes (aside from SS?) don't require use of Multiple Attacks minor.

So help me out, what is the RAI and what are the rules that support it?

Is it this little bit inside the description of Multiple Attacks Minor?
Quote from: SR6 3rd Printing pg 42
A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it.
  Is "ammunition" supposed to refer to the number of bullets fired from my weapon during the attack, and that is the limit to how many attacks I can make with a Multiple Attacks minor?  If so, why does a special rule for wide burst even exist?  It should have been a more general rule for how to calculate damage based on how many bullets are in each burst during a Multiple Attack action.   And ammunition isn't a very good word because that it generally understood to be how much ammunition you have in reserve, not how much you're currently firing.




Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Typhus on <09-19-21/1221:43>
As I read it, a Major action is need to make an attack roll, regardless of firing mode.  You can *only* make more than one attack roll with a Major action by also using the minor action Multiple Attacks (in which case, you split the dice pool).  The firing mode rules are there to inform you this is an exception to the normal rule regarding attacking more than one target at a time (in those modes).

It still leaves out the two-guns-vs-one-target question since the text of the Multiple Attacks minor action couches it as "each target". 

Speculation from the sidelines, but the word "require" leads me there.
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-19-21/1227:32>
I can shed light on the RAI, since it came from errata ;)

The new wording for multiple attacks is intended to only apply to "one weapon, multiple targets".

If you want to do "two weapons, one target" that for now* requires 2 major actions: one attack per weapon.

Double Clutch has a new action for vehicles/drones firing multiple weapons on the same target.  You could, if you wanted to, extend that to a metahuman holding a gun in each hand, but that's not what that rule was built to assume.

* I do expect either an official FAQ or a future rulebook to cover the option to use 2 weapons on one target, distinct from the Double Clutch option.
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: MercilessMing on <09-19-21/1654:17>
The new wording for multiple attacks is intended to only apply to "one weapon, multiple targets".
I assumed that.  Maybe I wasn't clear, I was asking what are the RAI for making multiple attacks with a firearm, and what are the rules that support this? 
Can I make multiple SS attacks against multiple opponents if I have enough ammo in my mag
Can I make multiple SA attacks given the same situation
Can I make multiple BF narrow attacks
Multiple BF wide attacks
Multiple FA attacks

And if "(These firing modes) do not require use of Multiple Attacks",  when is Multiple Attacks used with Firearms?
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Xenon on <09-19-21/1656:56>
But if I have the question of whether I can use SS, SA, or BF (narrow) with the Multiple Attacks minor
If you are just wielding one weapon, then no.



Is "ammunition" supposed to refer to the number of bullets fired from my weapon during the attack, and that is the limit to how many attacks I can make with a Multiple Attacks minor? 
Wait, what?

Single Shot = Tap trigger once. One target only. No Multiple Attack.

Semi Automatic = double tap. One target only. No Multiple Attack.
- You can't hit two different targets with this attack.

Burst Fire = tapping the trigger once and out flies 4 bullets. Either you hit one target (narrow burst) or you spray two targets that stand close enough to be hit by the burst (wide burst, but does not cost a multiple attacks minor action)
- You can't hit four different targets with this attack.
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Xenon on <09-19-21/1705:15>
Can I make multiple SS attacks against multiple opponents if I have enough ammo in my mag
No. With each Major action you only press the trigger once and you only fire one bullet. You can not hit multiple targets with one weapon in single shot mode.


Can I make multiple SA attacks given the same situation
No. With each Major action you "double tap" your weapon, both bullets will hit the same target. You can not hit multiple targets with one weapon in semi automatic mode.

Same reasoning with the others. With one major action you can fire a burst fire weapon just once. Either you focus the burst of 4 bullets against one single target (narrow burst) or you spray the burst of 4 bullets against max two enemies (that are 'positioned' well enough to be hit by this wide burst - book doesn't give specifics but perhaps they are within 1― meters of each other with no other targets between them, GM call here).


And if "(These firing modes) do not require use of Multiple Attacks",  when is Multiple Attacks used with Firearms?
When you wield 2 weapons.
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: MercilessMing on <09-19-21/1722:02>
Can I make multiple SS attacks against multiple opponents if I have enough ammo in my mag
No. With each Major action you only press the trigger once and you only fire one bullet. You can not hit multiple targets with one weapon in single shot mode.
So, what is the rule that supports the idea that each major action is one trigger pull, instead of each attack being one trigger pull?
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-19-21/1737:40>
The new wording for multiple attacks is intended to only apply to "one weapon, multiple targets".
I assumed that.  Maybe I wasn't clear, I was asking what are the RAI for making multiple attacks with a firearm, and what are the rules that support this? 
Can I make multiple SS attacks against multiple opponents if I have enough ammo in my mag
Can I make multiple SA attacks given the same situation
Can I make multiple BF narrow attacks
Multiple BF wide attacks
Multiple FA attacks

And if "(These firing modes) do not require use of Multiple Attacks",  when is Multiple Attacks used with Firearms?

The RAI on the errata is that you can combine the multiple attacks action with "non firing mode" attacks... which would also be another way of saying SS attacks.   Yes you are supposed to be able to spend a multiple attacks minor action to go BLAM BLAM at two different targets*, but if you do it's at the unmodified, base AR and DR (and of course with diminished dice pools, unless you anticipate).

*Edit: Maybe, and only ever with complete GM permission, you go BLAM and send one bullet through two targets where one is standing directly behind the other... if the GM lets you attempt this that should require the multiple attacks action.  In the immortal words of Deadpool when addressing more NPCs than he has bullets: "Some of you are going to have to share..."
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Xenon on <09-19-21/1747:06>
wait what?
Are you saying that you are allowed to attack more than one target in one major action if you use one single weapon set to single shot mode...?

That doesn't make sense. Why would you ever use (pre Seattle) Full Auto in that case?? ;-)
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-19-21/1913:49>
wait what?
Are you saying that you are allowed to attack more than one target in one major action if you use one single weapon set to single shot mode...?

If you spend the multiple attacks minor action in addition to the major action to make the attack.. yes, that's what I'm saying.  Again, bursts are a different thing where you don't use multiple attacks with them.

Quote
That doesn't make sense. Why would you ever use (pre Seattle) Full Auto in that case?? ;-)

pre wave 3/seattle edition errata, multiple attacks and anticipation and firing modes were all written in such a way that the only way to rationalize their use together was the way SRM did.  Full auto (pre Seattle) was virtually never worth using.  That's why we were allowed to rewrite it to use another mechanic that's already used elsewhere: indirect combat area spells.
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Typhus on <09-19-21/2358:19>
To make sure I understand...

The only scenario possible to make multiple attacks is SS mode, and only with one gun (or weapon).  Correct?

If so, what sentence or combination of sentences in the new printing are supposed to illuminate that?  Because I obviously got it very wrong, and the book seems to specify multiple weapons being in play.  Is that text an oversight?

What am I missing here?

(Not trying to argue, just understand.  I may need to teach it to somebody at some point.  Thanks for the extra explanations.)

Also, I'm not seeing anything about Throwing weapons working differently.  At least not with a word search for 'Thrown','Throwing' or 'Shuriken'.  Seems to need a Major to throw a single one, best I can tell.  Is that also true?

Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Xenon on <09-20-21/0228:51>
Scenario
You aim two burst firing weapons against one target. You pull both triggers.

With my reading:
You add a multiple attack minor action, split the pool and resolve them as two individual narrow burst.

With your reading:
Not possible to ever pull both triggers at once (no matter firing mode).

however, with your reading you can instead aim one of your firearms at one of your targets, pull the trigger once, then aim at the second target with the same pistol and pull the trigger a second time. But only if you first also spend a minor action to switch from burst firing mode to single shot mode. Please correct me if I got anything wrong here.

With your reading, what would you say is the advantage of using two pistols compared to just one?
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Finstersang on <09-20-21/0841:22>
I feel like there are multiple confounded issues. As I understand, there is only a very limited number of benefits to wielding two Firearms at once:


In Melee, the number of weapons doesnīt play much of a role as well: If you wield two Swords, you may split your dice pool to attack one target with one Sword and a second target with the other, but you can do the same with just one Sword. However there are Martial Arts Techniques and Edge Options in Firing Line that require two melee weapons. Throwing Weapons are a bit of a special breed: As long as you have enough Shuriken or Throwing Knifes ready, you may split your dice pool over multiple targets; possibly even more than 2, although the math gets really disadvantagous anyways.

Did I get everything right?
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-20-21/0957:08>
EDIT:
Nuked old post, too much information made for too much confusion.

New post:

You can attack multiple targets via the multiple attacks action with one weapon or multiple weapons.  It doesn't matter which. But, what you can't do (barring house rules, the rule from double clutch, or waiting for the FAQ) is use multiple weapons on one target. The advantage of having 2 weapons instead of 1, since 1 can attack multiple people anyway, lies in areas other than making multiple attacks.  Most prominently: being able to have different damage/ammo types on tap. But there are others, too.

Don't combine multiple attacks with BF wide bursts or FA (or, ghost forbid, blast attacks).  However, it doesn't offend RAI to combine multiple attacks with SA bursts or BF Narrow bursts, under the condition that they target separate targets still.  When an official FAQ is published, that will have the room that errata did not to explain why that's ok but wide bursts/FA multiple attacks is not.

If you want to model using two weapons on one target in the meantime until an official FAQ can go live, I suggest looking at the link-firing action from Double Clutch, which is itself basically letting you form a modified grunt group out of your multiple weapons.  (+1 AR and +1DV for the 2nd/subsequent weapon, or +2 DV if that weapon had 5+DV on its own)
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Finstersang on <09-20-21/1050:34>
With all due respect to your tireless work, but that SS-only restriction makes absolutely no sense and will just lead to more and more unnecessary confusion down the line.

I can understand why attacking 4 targets with 2 SMGs is not allowed; itīs confusing, unrealistic and mechanically unviable anyways. I can also understand putting the kibosh on attacking the same target with two different weapons at the same time with a split dice pool (although you probably overestimate how powerfull this actually is. With 6th Edition Damage Codes, itīs usually better to use the full dice pool and pump more net hits into additional damage). Thatīs just streamlining. Fine and dandy.

But if a duel-wielding Street Sam points his two Ares Predator at two different targets and declares "I wanna go BLAM BLAM at both of them at the same time" (translation: two semiautomatic attacks, each with +1 Damage, -2 AR, and a split dice pool), why should I, as a GM need say "No you can only do one BLAM with each weapon"? That will only lead to more questions and arguments, and even more so if the Streetsam has to put both Weapons in a different Firing Mode first. (Side Note: I suppose you can still make a Single Shot Attack in SA mode and donīt have to switch into a seperate Single Shot mode that magically prevents your finger from bending a second time, right? RIGHT?! :o) And even more so if it turns out that the same action doesnīt even require two weapons in the first place:

However, with your reading you can instead aim one of your firearms at one of your targets, pull the trigger once, then aim at the second target with the same pistol  and pull the trigger a second time. But only if you first also spend a minor action to switch from burst firing mode to single shot mode. Please correct me if I got anything wrong here.

I highlighted the real issue here - Xenon is talking about two attacks with the same (non-BF) weapon. If that is actually RAI, even the slight benefit of being able to shoot at two different targets with two different weapons would be gone, and one benefit of BF firing would be diminished as well.
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-20-21/1112:30>
But if a duel-wielding Street Sam points his two Ares Predator at two different targets and declares "I wanna go BLAM BLAM at both of them at the same time" (translation: two semiautomatic attacks, each with +1 Damage, -2 AR, and a split dice pool), why should I, as a GM need say "No you can only do one BLAM with each weapon"? That will only lead to more questions and arguments, and even more so if the Streetsam has to put both Weapons in a different Firing Mode first. (Side Note: I suppose you can still make a Single Shot Attack in SA mode and donīt have to switch into a seperate Single Shot mode that magically prevents your finger from bending a second time, right? RIGHT?! :o) And even more so if it turns out that the same action doesnīt even require two weapons in the first place:

Maybe I should try again: (edit: I realize I was hardly an easy read in the last post.  you helped me realize I needed to boil it down. significantly.  thanks ;)

If you want to use two SA bursts or two BF Narrow Bursts on two different targets, by all means do so.  That's not in conflict with the spirit/RAI, even though we couldn't make that explicitly allowable while still preventing problems with multiple attacks and wide bursts, in the space we had to work with. And we DO plan to explicitly say so in a future FAQ where we can take all the space we need.

Quote
However, with your reading you can instead aim one of your firearms at one of your targets, pull the trigger once, then aim at the second target with the same pistol  and pull the trigger a second time. But only if you first also spend a minor action to switch from burst firing mode to single shot mode. Please correct me if I got anything wrong here.

I highlighted the real issue here - Xenon is talking about two attacks with the same (non-BF) weapon. If that is actually RAI, even the slight benefit of being able to shoot at two different targets with two different weapons would be gone, and one benefit of BF firing would be diminished as well.

Yes that's the RAI and the RAW.  As mentioned above, the advantage of holding two weapons simultaneously lies in areas other than being able to attack twice.  If you want to attack twice, you may do so with one weapon (subject to the usual caveats involving multiple attacks: gm says targets are close enough together, etc).
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Typhus on <09-20-21/1138:51>
I totally get why doubling DVs on a target is a bad thing.  Makes sense.  The double clutch rule sounds like a good fix. 


Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Finstersang on <09-20-21/1407:23>
But if a duel-wielding Street Sam points his two Ares Predator at two different targets and declares "I wanna go BLAM BLAM at both of them at the same time" (translation: two semiautomatic attacks, each with +1 Damage, -2 AR, and a split dice pool), why should I, as a GM need say "No you can only do one BLAM with each weapon"? That will only lead to more questions and arguments, and even more so if the Streetsam has to put both Weapons in a different Firing Mode first. (Side Note: I suppose you can still make a Single Shot Attack in SA mode and donīt have to switch into a seperate Single Shot mode that magically prevents your finger from bending a second time, right? RIGHT?! :o) And even more so if it turns out that the same action doesnīt even require two weapons in the first place:

Maybe I should try again: (edit: I realize I was hardly an easy read in the last post.  you helped me realize I needed to boil it down. significantly.  thanks ;)

If you want to use two SA bursts or two BF Narrow Bursts on two different targets, by all means do so.  That's not in conflict with the spirit/RAI, even though we couldn't make that explicitly allowable while still preventing problems with multiple attacks and wide bursts, in the space we had to work with. And we DO plan to explicitly say so in a future FAQ where we can take all the space we need.



Ah, thanks for the clarification. Thatīs also what i got from the actual RAW, btw. Itīs just that this SS-only thing kept popping up here  :P

Quote
However, with your reading you can instead aim one of your firearms at one of your targets, pull the trigger once, then aim at the second target with the same pistol  and pull the trigger a second time. But only if you first also spend a minor action to switch from burst firing mode to single shot mode. Please correct me if I got anything wrong here.

I highlighted the real issue here - Xenon is talking about two attacks with the same (non-BF) weapon. If that is actually RAI, even the slight benefit of being able to shoot at two different targets with two different weapons would be gone, and one benefit of BF firing would be diminished as well.

Yes that's the RAI and the RAW.  As mentioned above, the advantage of holding two weapons simultaneously lies in areas other than being able to attack twice.  If you want to attack twice, you may do so with one weapon (subject to the usual caveats involving multiple attacks: gm says targets are close enough together, etc).

I can get on board with that, although Iīll probably have some houserules in place for when a player really wants to go down on the ol Akimbo style. The double clutch ruling might be a quick fix for that. Itīs a pretty strong option TBH, maybe I just allow it with the Ambitextrous Quality (or treat the whole attack as offhanded if the shooter is not ambidextrous).   

The only thing that still doesnīt sit right here (but maybe I still havenīt got everything right): Is it really now RAI that I you can use the Multiple Attacks option for two attacks with just one SS-only weapon like the Ruger Super Warhawk? Because that still feels a bit off, given that these weapons explicitly donīt allow you to pull the trigger twice in the same attack against one target - because thatīs what constitutes a SA attack :P

Or is this just the  GM fiat thing where you shoot one(!) bullet through 2 targets?
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-20-21/1445:26>
You're absolutely right in that being able to make two attacks on one target runs afoul of the burst fire rules... why indeed make a SA attack if you could instead just fire twice for full DV each time?

You could go down the rabbit hole of "two attacks firing one bullet each at the same target translates into a single SA burst", but we didn't have room for that in errataing the relevant rules.  I wouldn't call you wrong in adjudicating two-guns-on-one-target that way.  Only issue is when 2 SSs becomes SA, and 2 SAs become a narrow BF, what do 2 narrow BFs become?


When it comes to guns that are solely SS firing mode making multiple attacks: we're still talking about guns that fire way faster than 18th century muzzle loaders.  Even the slowest revolvers have a potential cyclical rate sufficient for at least 2 aimed shots in a 3 second combat round.  Sure, a proper semi-automatic could fire off a steady pop-pop-pop of bullets over the course of a combat round, but rate of fire is just one of many factors that the multi-attack action reserves to GM discretion/approval for the number of targets possible on that attack.  And of course once you add in rule of cool/hollywood physics, fanning the hammer could provide a rationale for a BUNCH of SS multi attacks.  Heck, the Ruger Redhawk revolver actually gains the BF firing mode from fanning the hammer!




Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Xenon on <09-20-21/1530:54>
So far the most consistent seem to be to not allow multiple attacks at all.

Unless you wield two weapons. And if you attack the same target with both weapons, to not treat it as a multi attack and instead just treat it as a slightly more powerful single attack.

And not only for firearms. Melee too. And readied throwing weapons.


I totally get why doubling DVs on a target is a bad thing.  Makes sense.  The double clutch rule sounds like a good fix.
With lower base damage values, a lot of the total damage now typically come from net hits.

By splitting the attacker's dice pool (but not the defender's) you will on average always reduce the damage part originating from net hits by half, and them some (there is also no Unaware of Attack in this edition that prevent the defender from taking a defense test as we had in previous edition).


Say your weapon have a base DV of 3 and you on average get 6 hits while the defender on average get 3. Say soak will on average remove 1.

With one weapon you end up with 3+6-3-1 = 5 boxes of damage. With two weapon attacking the same target twice end up with 3+3-3-1 + 3+3-3-1 = 4 boxes of damage. Plus you spend twice the amount of ammo and an additional minor action. Plus that you increase risk of glitch and that the defender will successfully avoid one or even both of the attacks.


It is basically only useful if the defender have very low defense pool (so you don't risk missing the attack and that your net hits will not be reduced a lot more than half) and/or if if the attack itself deal a lot of damage (narrow burst + explosive ammo might prove problematic, for example).


The only thing that still doesnīt sit right here (but maybe I still havenīt got everything right): Is it really now RAI that I you can use the Multiple Attacks option for two attacks with just one SS-only weapon like the Ruger Super Warhawk? Because that still feels a bit off, given that these weapons explicitly donīt allow you to pull the trigger twice in the same attack against one target - because thatīs what constitutes a SA attack
Agree.

I guess the difference is that with this mode you cannot double tap each target, you can only fire one bullet at each target.

But if you have the time to realign and fire off a second round at a second target with your Ruger Redhawk during one major action (or even a 3rd target and a 4th, there is really no upper limit here is there???) then it suddenly will become hard to argue why you can only fire one single bullet at one target. Surely if you rule that you can fire a single shot weapon more than once you would also have more than enough time to pull the trigger a second time... Not sure this is a can of worms I am willing to open ;-)



...in a 3 second combat round.
I know a combat round in SR6 is still supposed to be 3 seconds, but a combat round in SR6 is more akin to the initiative pass concept we had in SR5 (which are typically shorter than 3 seconds).

Unless we allow you to fire single shot weapons multiple times per major action, i guess ;-)
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Finstersang on <09-20-21/1836:21>
IMO there should be a kind of sanity check in place to determine if a Multi-Attack is feasible. And the RAW kinda suggests that as well (Well, ACKCHUYALLY the RAW only explicitly mentions "ammunition, reach, and enemy placement", but come on, people  ::))

However, I have nothing against keeping the bar for that check quite low:

But one weapon with Single Shot Mode only? Well, thatīs where Iīd draw the line unless other reasonable factors enable it. There is a reason why these weapons only have that mode available, and itīs not just a balancing. These weapons are supposed to be so clunky that you canīt properly shoot them in a rapid succession. The Ruger Redhawk mentions Hammer-fanning, but thatīs why it also has SA/BF listed in its stats. Thatīs not the case with the Ruger Super Warhawk.

(Side Note: At one of my tables, I actually enabled Hammer-Fanning for the RSW as well, but it requires a bit of gun modding and a homebrew martial Arts technique that can be learned as a part of the Cowboy fighting style. Itīs currently used by a player who build a Dark Tower-style Gunslinger Adept  ;D)
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Michael Chandra on <09-21-21/0148:16>
You're absolutely right in that being able to make two attacks on one target runs afoul of the burst fire rules... why indeed make a SA attack if you could instead just fire twice for full DV each time?

You could go down the rabbit hole of "two attacks firing one bullet each at the same target translates into a single SA burst", but we didn't have room for that in errataing the relevant rules.  I wouldn't call you wrong in adjudicating two-guns-on-one-target that way.  Only issue is when 2 SSs becomes SA, and 2 SAs become a narrow BF, what do 2 narrow BFs become?


When it comes to guns that are solely SS firing mode making multiple attacks: we're still talking about guns that fire way faster than 18th century muzzle loaders.  Even the slowest revolvers have a potential cyclical rate sufficient for at least 2 aimed shots in a 3 second combat round.  Sure, a proper semi-automatic could fire off a steady pop-pop-pop of bullets over the course of a combat round, but rate of fire is just one of many factors that the multi-attack action reserves to GM discretion/approval for the number of targets possible on that attack.  And of course once you add in rule of cool/hollywood physics, fanning the hammer could provide a rationale for a BUNCH of SS multi attacks.  Heck, the Ruger Redhawk revolver actually gains the BF firing mode from fanning the hammer!
I mean if I scored 41 Initiative in SR5 (had a player roll that once thanks to a massive Increase Reflexes spell), I could fire 5 6-round FA Bursts and not suffer any recoil, or fire 5 SS attacks. Being able to fire 2 or 4 in the same time in SR6 doesn't seem that big a deal.
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: Finstersang on <09-21-21/0701:41>
And 4th Edition was even more bonkers, with fixed Initiative Passes and the possibility of making 2 shots per pass ::)
Title: Re: Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE
Post by: MercilessMing on <09-21-21/1649:29>
Quote from: SSDR
You're absolutely right in that being able to make two attacks on one target runs afoul of the burst fire rules... why indeed make a SA attack if you could instead just fire twice for full DV each time?

I know this is referring specifically to damage from multiple attacks on a single target, but in all this "multiple attacks is starting to encroach on the purpose of firing modes" talk, are we forgetting that outside of Anticipation, players are rolling half or less of their dice pool to get this done?