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6e Play/Stress Test

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Lormyr

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« Reply #105 on: <09-06-19/1443:06> »
Your PCs are (in my opinion) highly optimized. In your experience, does that put more stress on 6E's rules than it does to 5E's?

Yes and no.

In 5e, you could create an armored cyberlimb bearing, heavy milspec wearing, soak dice optimized minotaur juggernaut that could be packing soak pools in the 60 dice +11 automatic hits from the milspec range, plus just be immune to attacks that have a combined DV+AP of less than 23 literally out of character generation. Other than direct combat spells, no reasonable opposition will hurt that character, not even the triple-tap sniper without an improbable amount of net hits.

In 5e, you can build a mystic adept with such a high defense pool that only another mystic adept or adept with an unreasonably high rating weapon foci, running both analyze device and benefiting from a technomancer's machine sprite diagnostics will have a snowball's chance in hell of ever hitting them.

The same is true of resisting magic. After you have your base (usually) two quickened increase attribute augmented attributes to resist the spell, then add your ranks of adept spell resistance, and counterspell skill, and body+magic+initiate grade from harmonious defense, not even the likes of lord gwyn, harlequin, and lowfyr with their magic attributes 30+ could land a spell.

5e was the system of supreme defense where you couldn't be touched by anything in the ballpark of an equally advanced opponent if you chose to build that way.

6e overall is more balanced towards the center at the "base level", but when you compare the optimized levels vs. one another the entire thing falls apart with offense standing victorious.

The attack pool vs. offense pool is it a good ratio. You basically have agility + augmentation, plus 1 from smartlink, plus 1 from reflex recorder, or plus improved ability and plus weapon foci rating vs. intuition, reaction, attribute augmentation (favors mages), plus combat sense (adept only). That default favors offense calculations, but when you factor in action options of block, dodge, and full defense it evens out well enough.

Damage vs. soak is the opposite of 5e. At the low end of offense, it is decently balanced. I would say average soak pool is probably 4 or 5, with the absolute max being 14. Against small arms like pistols, knives, and clubs around DV 3P, that scale holds up decently. When we get into FN-HAR burst firing explosive rounds for 8P, a troll punching you in the eye for 11P, or a grenade exploding in your face for 16P, it completely breaks down to the point of being insulting to suggest the person even bother to soak if they get hit.

Overall 5e is more broken, but broken favoring PC survival vs. broken favoring PCs being evaporated. Literally all it would have taken would have been me to give each of those five adepts a single grenade at the end of our play and it would have been a guaranteed party wipe.

I think playstyle is going to be an even bigger issue for 6e than 5e. Players who's style differs from their GMs are going to have a much harder time having fun.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

skalchemist

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« Reply #106 on: <09-06-19/1503:00> »
Lormyr, thanks for these detailed posts.

I admit I was utterly astonished by the shear volume of dice being thrown around.  I haven't played/ran Shadowrun since 1E, so my memories of it are hazy.  I will need to reverse engineer a few of these described rolls just to figure out how those numbers of dice happen.  I mean, one roll has 35 freakin' dice! 

One question: to what extent is the problem with grenades not so much that they are overpowered, but that it seems so easy for player characters to endure being close to them going off? 
« Last Edit: <09-06-19/1504:43> by skalchemist »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #107 on: <09-06-19/1607:54> »
Yeah in both 5e and 6we the rules were designed with a mindset of PCs throwing 9-12 dice or so against NPCs with 6 to 10-ish dice pools.  Of course it was easily enough possible, even in chargen, to bust those expectations wide open.

6we introduces some new limits that weren't in 5e, but you can still hit 16 or even 20 or more dice in a task, right out of chargen.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Tecumseh

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« Reply #108 on: <09-06-19/1727:02> »
5e was the system of supreme defense where you couldn't be touched by anything in the ballpark of an equally advanced opponent if you chose to build that way.

6e overall is more balanced towards the center at the "base level", but when you compare the optimized levels vs. one another the entire thing falls apart with offense standing victorious.

...

Overall 5e is more broken, but broken favoring PC survival vs. broken favoring PCs being evaporated.

Thanks again. Good insights.

Lormyr

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« Reply #109 on: <09-06-19/1733:14> »
I haven't played/ran Shadowrun since 1E, so my memories of it are hazy.  I will need to reverse engineer a few of these described rolls just to figure out how those numbers of dice happen.  I mean, one roll has 35 freakin' dice!

That roll was assisted by two dice pool adding actions. Intuition 9 + Reaction 9 + Combat Sense 6 + full defense 6 (Willpower) + dodge 5 (athletics).

One question: to what extent is the problem with grenades not so much that they are overpowered, but that it seems so easy for player characters to endure being close to them going off?

I suppose that is a matter of perspective. I did not find it easy for either the PCs or NPCs to endure being close to them going off (for note, I consider "close" to the be either the ground zero range damage or close range damage). Not even the two trolls, who had the highest soak pools at 12 and 13 dice, were able to be at close range without taking damage, and their soak rolls were both frequently (if only slightly) higher than statistically average. Two ground zero explosions would have killed either of the two, period. The rest of the team struggled just to deal with the "near" range (17 meters!?) 8P.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #110 on: <09-06-19/1743:44> »
Yes, I'd also like to thank you Lormyr for sharing your thoughts and detailed note-taking.

I believe I know your answer already, but I'll ask anyway to be sure:

Do you think the Avoid Incoming and Hit the Dirt actions are insufficient defensive options against grenades?  Do you think being allowed to Avoid Incoming more than once (or after you've already Moved) would have made a difference in your playtest?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #111 on: <09-06-19/1747:05> »
Upon further investigation, I also want to add that I believe they buffed up cyberware too much in comparison to the adept power points. While I am in favor of cyberware coming out the door more efficiently, it went too far. Let's take a quick and how many power points Cage effectively had in cyberware:

8 power points into improved physical attribute for his muscle replacement 4.
7.5 powers points for bone density 4 (which is 4 into improved attribute for the soak application, 2 into critical strike for the augmented unarmed damage, and 0.5 into mystic armor for the +2 DR)
3 power points into increased reflexes for his synaptic booster 3
1 power point into improved ability for reflex recorder in athletics

That is 19.5 power points vs. a starting adept's maximum of 4. Not only is that 14.5 power points better out of the gate, but it would take the adept a minimum of Magic Attribute 10, Initiate Level 9 for 360 karma (maybe 60 game sessions?) just to break even. Wow.
« Last Edit: <09-06-19/1748:58> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Lormyr

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« Reply #112 on: <09-06-19/1756:27> »
Do you think the Avoid Incoming and Hit the Dirt actions are insufficient defensive options against grenades?  Do you think being allowed to Avoid Incoming more than once (or after you've already Moved) would have made a difference in your playtest?

I appreciate you asking!

My philosophy is very simple: If a character takes an action that negatively impacts another character it should always require an opposed roll. Period, no exception. So in that vein, even if avoiding/dodging a grenade explosion isn't terribly realistic, that is acceptable when opposed to game balance being completely destroyed by staying to appropriate realism.

Avoid Incoming was actually even less useful than I thought it would be, which was already of vital importance. The main reason why is that stiff dodge penalty. Even Cage, who had 8 agility and 8 athletics, had a hard time clearing the close range 12P damage after that -6 ground zero penalty.

If for some reason the powers that be just cannot get on board with at least bringing things closer to the SR standard of attack test vs. dodge test, allowing multiple avoid incoming as remaining actions allow would at least help a little in terms of surviving a situation of multiple grenades in a combat, let alone in the same turn.

Hit the dirt is solid as is. 1 minor action for a flat -2 damage off the top is a good trade.
« Last Edit: <09-06-19/1759:22> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #113 on: <09-06-19/1759:55> »
...That is 19.5 power points vs. a starting adept's maximum of 4. Not only is that 14.5 power points better out of the gate, but it would take the adept a minimum of Magic Attribute 10, Initiate Level 9 for 360 karma (maybe 60 game sessions?) just to break even. Wow.

I'm not saying that you don't have a point.. but Qi Foci are still a thing.  Most any adept would be getting a big one of those (or several smaller ones for "hot swappable" Adept powers) rather than going  for brute, raw PP gain thru Initiation only.

Between Adepts being able to toggle between powers, having powers that aren't hackable, and having access to the Astral world (if not being able to PROJECT into it...) I'd expect that cyberbois OUGHT to have a better than 1:1 advantage in raw power.  You might be right that it's skewed too far, but I don't think it's as skewed as far as you seem to think it is.

Do you think the Avoid Incoming and Hit the Dirt actions are insufficient defensive options against grenades?  Do you think being allowed to Avoid Incoming more than once (or after you've already Moved) would have made a difference in your playtest?

I appreciate you asking!

My philosophy is very simple: If a character takes an action that negatively impacts another character it should always require an opposed roll. Period, no exception. So in that vein, even if avoiding/dodging a grenade explosion isn't terribly realistic, that is acceptable when opposed to game balance being completely destroyed by staying to appropriate realism.

Avoid Incoming was actually even less useful than I thought it would be, which was already of vital importance. The main reason why is that stiff dodge penalty. Even Cage, who had 8 agility and 8 athletics, had a hard time clearing the close range 12P damage after that -6 ground zero penalty.

If for some reason the powers that be just cannot get on board with at least bringing things closer to the SR standard of attack test vs. dodge test, allowing multiple avoid incoming as remaining actions allow would at least help a little in terms of surviving a situation of multiple grenades in a combat, let alone in the same turn.

Hit the dirt is solid as is. 1 minor action for a flat -2 damage off the top is a good trade.

I think your feedback is rather useful.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #114 on: <09-06-19/1807:49> »
I'm not saying that you don't have a point.. but Qi Foci are still a thing.  Most any adept would be getting a big one of those (or several smaller ones for "hot swappable" Adept powers) rather than going  for brute, raw PP gain thru Initiation only.

Between Adepts being able to toggle between powers, having powers that aren't hackable, and having access to the Astral world (if not being able to PROJECT into it...) I'd expect that cyberbois OUGHT to have a better than 1:1 advantage in raw power.  You might be right that it's skewed too far, but I don't think it's as skewed as far as you seem to think it is.

You aren't wrong, but I personally think that foci are in the top three list of things that need to be re-considered, re-balanced, and re-worked from the ground up, as they are one of the primary things that helps magic continue to completely dominate the game.

So I agree with you that they go a long way to bridge the gap I mentioned, but they are also basically like cheating the system too, so not an ideal solution.

I also think your perception that ware should have a better than 1:1 ratio vs. power points is legit. But right now, out of chargen, it is closer to 5:1, which is kind of insane.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #115 on: <09-06-19/1813:48> »
You aren't wrong, but I personally think that foci are in the top three list of things that need to be re-considered, re-balanced, and re-worked from the ground up, as they are one of the primary things that helps magic continue to completely dominate the game.

Hey, I'd love to hear your views on this in more detail, but let's not disrupt the thread.  HMU in PM or on the CDT discord chat?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Tecumseh

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« Reply #116 on: <09-06-19/1846:44> »
I think the thread has concluded, at least in terms of the original intent to offer a practical review of the rules.

As such, I'm not sure we're really derailing it by picking Lormyr's brains on specific systems and subsystems.

Since this thread is basically Lormyr holding court, I wouldn't mind hearing his thoughts on foci.

Lormyr

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« Reply #117 on: <09-06-19/1904:36> »
Sent you a PM, but it is not showing up in my sent folder for some reason. Please confirm if you receive it or not.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Lormyr

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« Reply #118 on: <09-06-19/1909:04> »
Tecumseh, if others want to hear it as well I will post it here too. Otherwise I'll send you a PM later as well.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #119 on: <09-06-19/1917:59> »
I did get your PM Lormyr.  But if more of us want to discuss Foci, why not just start a new thread? :)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.