[firebug]

It's always best to judge people by their actions and not their words.

And Catalyst's actions speak very loudly.

1). The company owner spends all his time with battletech and has left Srun to a second stringer to manage and her could care less (otherwise Randall would have posted/ responded/ got involve with fixing things by now).

2). It's clear that Catalyst's Srun process is broken and has been for a long time. It could have easily been fixed by now by any competent manager. The fact that it has not is clear evidence of either lack of talent or lack of will.

3). Catalyst could easily have resolved the ongoing customer satisfaction problems by issuing errata. They've had years now. The fact that they haven't conveys the message that they really don't care at all about their customers. We are only money to them.

4). Catalyst has an addiction to fiction as it's easier to write and shovel into a book/ supplement/ etc. You can see the line editor spending time writing srun novels rather than you know, doing his job. He could have easily taken the time he spent on ONE of those books to get errata out for ALL the srun rules books. The fact that he did not indicates that he could care less, he wants to write fiction and he will dammit!

So given all of the above how can you continue to buy product from a company that could care less about you as a customer?

Well said.  Even if what you said isn't true, the problem is that this is what many people feel is the case.  Catalyst isn't doing enough to solve it.  The freelancers are the only ones we really get any regularly response from, and they can only do much.

Lack of things like small, informal errata and answers is really insulting...  The issue isn't that the players can't come up with their own stuff; as people have stated, the errata needed would only take a couple hours for one person at MOST.  The issue is that the players shouldn't have to put in work to make the game's rules work.  What's the point of buying the game if you may as well just come up with the system on your own, for all the work you'd have to do to fix it?  It's like trying to sell someone a totaled car--  It just isn't worth it.

[Banshee]

It's always best to judge people by their actions and not their words.

And Catalyst's actions speak very loudly.

1). The company owner spends all his time with battletech and has left Srun to a second stringer to manage and her could care less (otherwise Randall would have posted/ responded/ got involve with fixing things by now).

2). It's clear that Catalyst's Srun process is broken and has been for a long time. It could have easily been fixed by now by any competent manager. The fact that it has not is clear evidence of either lack of talent or lack of will.

3). Catalyst could easily have resolved the ongoing customer satisfaction problems by issuing errata. They've had years now. The fact that they haven't conveys the message that they really don't care at all about their customers. We are only money to them.

4). Catalyst has an addiction to fiction as it's easier to write and shovel into a book/ supplement/ etc. You can see the line editor spending time writing srun novels rather than you know, doing his job. He could have easily taken the time he spent on ONE of those books to get errata out for ALL the srun rules books. The fact that he did not indicates that he could care less, he wants to write fiction and he will dammit!

So given all of the above how can you continue to buy product from a company that could care less about you as a customer?

ok, well I can not (or at least not truly willing to) respond directly to most of what you posted ... but one thing I can respond to ...

1). is completely false ... the owner (which is not Randall btw since your post seems to imply that) does not spend anymore time on Battletech than he does Shadowrun. In fact he has so many irons in the fire that he can not spend very much time on any one thing at a time

[adzling]

Ok well replace Randall with *whomever* and the point still stands.
Battletech is managed *far* better than Srun is.

[jim1701]

Ok well replace Randall with *whomever* and the point still stands.
Battletech is managed *far* better than Srun is.

I agree with this BUT since we don't know how CGL is internally structured railing at the company as a whole is a waste of time not to mention wild speculation.  Last I heard the company was a partnership between several people though again I couldn't tell you what the power structure might be like.  Such is a privately owned company. 

[PiXeL01]

We actually have proof that Jason Hardy reads the forums as he sent a private message in response to someone threatening to stop buying SR (Howling Shadows, same sub forum), where he stated that some of the things players found lacking in said product was not part of his vision for the game world.

So what is his vision then? Not a game world but only a setting to be writing fiction about, where crouch and rules are a major inconvenience just conjured into a first draft state then published without editing?
I really would like to know the reason for him to blatantly and adamantly ignoring the ever growing call for errata other than the lack obvious lack of instant profit.

Errata might not generate profit by itself but it would rebuild some of the trust and then players would like to introduce new players into the system. As it is now on other forums SR comes up as a setting people want to play but won't because of the state of it.

So please do something to save it. Don't just ride it like a cash cow

[Medicineman]

>>> So what is his vision then? Not a game world but only a setting to be writing fiction about, where crouch and rules are a major inconvenience just conjured into a first draft state then published without editing?
I really would like to know the reason for him to blatantly and adamantly ignoring the ever growing call for errata other than the lack obvious lack of instant profit.

I guess you're right about that
And I also guess that is one of the (main ?) Reasons for SR Anarchy (apart from making Money which is inherently not a bad Idea)

I get the Impression tha Mr. Hardy has a lot of other things to do ( like supervising the new Products, etc) and most of teh Products are from Freelancers that volunteer for a certain Product (like the Seelie Court Book f.E.)
and if no Freelancer volunteers for Erratta, than... no one will do it(? but that is just an outsider's guess based only on what I read from Forums)

>>> Errata might not generate profit by itself but it would rebuild some of the trust
That is correct, BUT they must be done by somebody who knows the actual rules
and since I'm used on making Houserules I'd rather stick to my/our Houserules than Erratta from someone who doesn't know the Rules

HokaHey
Medicineman

[ScytheKnight]

Most damming of all there's been two promises that Street Grimiore errata is just around the corner... with nothing actually happening that's viable at a player level.

Really sad that I had to give up on a game I've been wanting to play/GM for so long because of this kind of thing.

[Reaver]

Catalyst Game Labs is a subsidary of InMediaRes.

InMediaRes is a private company founded by Loren and Heather Coleman, Tara and Randal Bills, Philip DeLuca.

Heather Coleman serves as IMR's executive manager, while Loren is the submissions editor for BattleCorps.
●●●●

Found all that out in 3 minutes. Where Mr. Hardy fits into all this and what he is responsible for, I have no idea....But to me, it looks like he answers to someone....

(And that is NOT a bunch of people on these forums!)


And threats? Really? REALLY?!?
you know threats are a waste of time. Especially if you don't follow through on them. It just makes you look like a bunch of whiny brats. (Oh, wait.... i forgot where I was!)

Pro tip to thise who leveled threats. Man up and walk away like you said you were. IF you have walked away, then you have no reason to continue to post.... as you have walked away!!

And IF you have walked away, then why are you still posting???


"Hate everything I do, yet you wait on every word or action? Bitch, you're a Fan!" - random internet meme

[Novocrane]

Man up and walk away like you said you were. IF you have walked away, then you have no reason to continue to post.... as you have walked away!!

Half of a false dichotomy, imo. Deciding to cease buying product doesn't mean one must also get rid of their previous purchases and cease any possible contact with the community. I guess that's common when they're frustrated enough, but people can be ok with their current shelf, homebrew, or know people who still purchase.

[MijRai]

Yeah, I have to disagree with you there, Reaver.  I've sworn off buying any and all new Shadowrun products (I did so months ago, actually, and it isn't a 'threat,' I stopped purchasing all Catalyst products).  But I'm still around, mostly because I have a caveat; if Catalyst can get their act together and actually fix the products they've already produced while maintaining a higher standard with their new materials, I will start purchasing their books again.  I can't really pay attention to whether or not things are getting fixed if I'm not around to check, can I?

I love the Shadowrun setting; it is flat-out my favorite RPG setting of all time.  I can't get enough of it.  I have a shit-ton of the books in PDF, all purchased because I wanted my money to support the products I enjoy.  I don't want to walk away from the decades of history this amazing game has.  That said, the system and mechanics have been getting kicked in the stomach repeatedly over the last few years.  I'm not letting Catalyst's mediocre treatment of the system and certain aspects of the setting to ruin the rest for me, even if I won't pay them to continue messing it up.  Sure, my hopes that they'll actually fix things are at an all-time low (they seem to think leaving the current rules unfixed while releasing a new Rules-Lite version is a good idea, and yet again they've promised errata that is now months overdue); but I can keep going for a while longer.

In the end, if the things I want don't happen I'm going to walk away (at least until Catalyst loses Shadowrun from mismanagement).  I'll take the current rules and eventually apply my own fixes and adjustments, making a comprehensive home-errata so I can share the love of Shadowrun I have with local players who are leery of playing explicitly because of everything they've heard about the rules in 5th Edition (yes, people in my area refuse to play because of the current situation). 

All of the problems do make me wonder if the rumor I heard from a friend is true, though...  I have no way of verifying it, and neither did they, but according to what they heard there is a deep-pocketed backer of Shadowrun who provides a significant amount of funding to Catalyst to produce Shadowrun products; they use this funding as a means of influence on the setting.  I mean, the initial implementation of CFD sort of fits the bill of a cliched person without a clue going 'I want zombies!  With nanites!  And everyone is at risk!  And there's no way to cure it!' 

[Sterling]

All of the problems do make me wonder if the rumor I heard from a friend is true, though...  I have no way of verifying it, and neither did they, but according to what they heard there is a deep-pocketed backer of Shadowrun who provides a significant amount of funding to Catalyst to produce Shadowrun products; they use this funding as a means of influence on the setting.  I mean, the initial implementation of CFD sort of fits the bill of a cliched person without a clue going 'I want zombies!  With nanites!  And everyone is at risk!  And there's no way to cure it!'

Just on this, I truly doubt there's any truth to this rumour.

CFD was originally posited to explain away the occasional Jackpoint comment with no name.  This was initially an editing error that was then worked into the setting, all during 4th Ed and finally leading to the comments being attributed to FastJack's new persona.

Any time someone comes up with an unsubstantiated rumour it seems to be another urban fairy tale.

[revan.be]

OP has my full support on this.

I also believe it has come to the point Shadowrun, and Catalyst as a business ,
would be better served if it were to just either sell off the line
or at least hand over the RULES only to the more competent german publisher Pegasus Games,
and give these utter leeway to change the rules as they see fit.
They have done what they could to improve on the product without changing the core,
because not allowed, and added better optional rules.

Or they could sell it to FFG or another big house.
 Or even change the business model drastically , and go more crowdfunding , and crowd influencing focused..

There are plenty of options , but the fact is
we urgently need a sort of Shadowrun : 5ixed edition

[Finstersang]

This current mix of salt and rumors won´t make things any better, I´m afraid 

Let´s put it a more suggestive way: Officialy releasing an Errata at least for the more serious problems in the system (no prices and availability for pets in a book that constantly refers to "base costs" of pets, to name something very recent) would probably be worth the effort even from a pure-
businesslike perspective, because it would help you regain some lost trust.

And some trust is lost, that´s for sure. From what I´ve experienced so far, many of the more casual rounds have fallen back to 4th Edition or to systems that are either maintained better or don´t need that much maintenance because they don´t repeat the same editing mistakes all over again.

[RacoonSF]

I guess there are several topics mixed together when the state of Shadowrun as a product ist discussed.

1.) The quality of the books published

Contrary to many people here on the forum I think that the quality is quite good. I really like Run Faster and Howling Shadows e.g. and think they are great books. That there are many initial inconsitencies and errors is to be expected, considering the scope of the world an existing rules.

Of course there are some things that should not happen, like the rules on shifters in Run Faster which are incomplete and full of errors. I generally draw the line when I have to houserule at the basics of character creation (like attributes or augmentations).


2.) The design choices in the books

I guess this is the topic where a lot of users confuse a bad product with design choices. Just because you disagree with a design choice does not make the book a bad product.

Examples: I don't like fact that shapeshifters no longer have regeneration. They can still only get deltaware, which is a highly questionable design choice. But it is a design choice. On the other hand, the lack of ruling on the possibility of SURGE with shifters and how to apply it is a lack of quality, especially since both are covered in the same book.

Another example would be the missing animal prices in Howling Shadows (see the other topic). It's a design choice, not an error or bad editing. Same with the heavily criticizied extensive fluff. Like it or don't like it, it's a design choice.

3.) The lack of errata

This is a very, very bad. While I completely understand the impossibility of publishing a flawless book and also know that sometimes seamingly obvious errors can happen, there is no excuse for not publishing errata. In PC game industry every publisher with a reasonable economical survival instinct will publish at least some "hotfixes" asap. While a Pen & Paper never really gets "unplayable" due the possibility of housruling even the worst errors it's still a very serious issue.

4.) The lack of communication

This is worst. Not commuicating on such widely discussed issues as errata can ruin a game and it's community. There is no reason i can think of not to adress some matters officialy by posting in topics, releasing official announcments or else.

It just broadcasts a simple message: We don't care. At all.

Look at Hero Lab. Due to work overload and other reasons they where late in publishing some shadowrun products this year. While they didn't give estimates on release (which is reasonable) they explained why there are problems and reported on the state of the updates. That's enough to show the customer that they care and do their best. They are up to date now btw.

5. Suggestion

IMO there is a viable solution outside of creating "classic" errata. Put up a separate board for each book where everyone can post a specific question in a seperate topic which is officially answered within a week or so.

Now I have the strong suspicion that every ruling has to be approved of by probably a dozen people and goes up and down the chain probably a hundred times which probably takes months even for simple issues. But that's the problem. Give one or several guys the authority to answer the questions independently. Perhaps the answer then does contratdict some hidden design goal. But better a sub-par answer than none at all. As it seems Pegasus in Germany has some leeway to correct errata and even add content, so why not? Of course I have no insight in the internal workings on error control etc. but how should I? No one explains officially where the problem is ...

That post got longer than intended ...

[adzling]

You're totally wrong about the below as evidenced by the fact that there are cost multipliers and other entrys in the book that reference a base cost.

This was clearly another horrific editing fail that the line editor is trying to CYA after the fact by issuing a fake statement.

Really he dropped the ball entirely, he just doesn't want to take the blame.

Another example would be the missing animal prices in Howling Shadows (see the other topic). It's a design choice, not an error or bad editing. Same with the heavily criticizied extensive fluff. Like it or don't like it, it's a design choice.