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[5e] Brainstorm to improve HVAR, miniguns and such weaponry.

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PiXeL01

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« on: <01-17-15/0633:33> »
As it stands now there aren't any reasons to ever buy or use either the vindicator Minigun or the HVAR rifle even though their fluff states they fire at a much higher rate than any other weapons.

I would like the weapons to reflect that.
I recall that in SR2 at least both types of weapons used the doubled amount or more rounds when firing burst or FA while having a really unmanageable recoil.

My quick and not that much thought through suggestions would be for these weapons to use their complex firing modes as simple actions.
Or be able to use twice the amount of rounds for double the penalties when suppressing.

Any other ideas?
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #1 on: <01-17-15/0928:25> »
I agree completely with this sentiment.

SR4 had slightly different rules for HVAR weapons and mini-guns, and I personally think this is appropriate.

HVAR weapons could be allowed to fire more rounds per action; a simple change would be to add 3 rounds to each Full Auto mode, making it 9 and 12 for Simple vs Complex. Another option is to allow for multiple attacks with the same burst similar to shotgun choke settings. HVAR weapons in 4th had no change to suppressive fire rules.

Mini-guns could similarly be altered slightly; I like your idea of allowing a 10-round burst with a simple action, though I'd also allow a 15-round burst with a complex action. Additionally, a mini-gun weapon in 4th had an elegant change to suppressive fire that I like; instead of 20 rounds, these weapons use 30 rounds when employed for suppressive fire and the base damage inflicted is 1.5 times (rounding up). A Vindicator would therefore be 14P -4AP when used for suppressive fire, compared to its 9P -4AP when used for normal attack actions, though a complex action with one could impose a -14 dice pool modifier (virtually guaranteeing a hit against almost anything).

MijRai

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« Reply #2 on: <01-17-15/1027:06> »
Which seems fair to me, given the Availability and cost of the Vindicator. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Namikaze

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« Reply #3 on: <01-17-15/1108:38> »
I think the rounds should automatically negate a certain amount of hardened armor.  The rounds are high velocity, not the firing chamber.
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adzling

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« Reply #4 on: <01-17-15/1152:28> »
Miniguns spit out more rounds per second/ minute than any other weapon system due to the multiple barrells.
The velocity of those rounds is not much different from a normal weapon of the same caliber (i.e. light or heavy mg).
So I would not alter AP or damage codes but I would allow them to spit out DOUBLE or TRIPLE the number of rounds that a normal weapon could (although the recoil would be horrendous, they are meant to be vehicle mounted weapons).

And they should not be able to fire short bursts, full-auto or nothing for these things as the barrells do take a second or two to spin up to speed.

So yeah a short burst = 10 rounds, a long burst = 20 rounds and I like the suppressive fire change you note brakhaus but perhaps even increase the AREA the suppressive fire covers.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #5 on: <01-17-15/1259:43> »
I think the rounds should automatically negate a certain amount of hardened armor.  The rounds are high velocity, not the firing chamber.
I don't personally think hardened armor should be negated by volume of fire; this is what armor piercing is for, in my opinion.

A Vindicator firing APDS rounds is already at -8 AP, and using the Bulls-Eye action this could be increased to -12AP (4*3) or even -16AP ((4*3)+4), depending on reading. Even in full heavy mil-spec armor (20+3), -12 AP represents a reduction in armor rating by 52% while -16AP would represent a reduction of 70%. Expensive, yes, but taking out the metahuman equivalent of a walking tank should probably have a significant cost.

Miniguns spit out more rounds per second/ minute than any other weapon system due to the multiple barrells.
The velocity of those rounds is not much different from a normal weapon of the same caliber (i.e. light or heavy mg).
Traditional Gatling style weapons like the M134 Minigun and the GAU-8 Avenger feature high rates of fire in the thousands of rounds per minute. However, it should be noted that this is insignificant when compared to experimental technology like that developed by Metal Storm, which have a proven firing rate in the hundreds of thousands of rounds per minute, with the potential of exceeding one million rounds per minute (prototype 36-barrel weapons fired a 180 round burst in 0.01 seconds). Just saying ;)

You are right on the mark about muzzle velocities, though. I agree completely on this point.

So I would not alter AP or damage codes but I would allow them to spit out DOUBLE or TRIPLE the number of rounds that a normal weapon could (although the recoil would be horrendous, they are meant to be vehicle mounted weapons).

And they should not be able to fire short bursts, full-auto or nothing for these things as the barrells do take a second or two to spin up to speed.

So yeah a short burst = 10 rounds, a long burst = 20 rounds and I like the suppressive fire change you note brakhaus but perhaps even increase the AREA the suppressive fire covers.
I agree on AP and damage codes. As for recoil, it might still be manageable, though it would take a Troll with Metagentic Attribute (Strength) to do so effectively.
Gas Vent 3 + Gyro mount 6 + STR 6 = 15 Recoil Compensation

Even with "just" the Gyro mount and gas vent 3 system you're looking at 10 recoil compensation from a bare minimum strength attribute. That would handle 10 round bursts in an of itself, though 20 round bursts would be almost unmanageable even for strong characters; a Strength 6 Human would suffer a -8 dice pool modifier. A 20 round burst would also impose a -19 dice pool modifier to defense, which quite frankly just seems excessive.

In short, I'd stick with the Arsenal rules, but modified for SR5 due to difference in firing modes between editions.

Edit:
Using the optional RG6: Damage for no defense rule might also  be appropriate to represent how deadly MGs are. With a -9 dice pool modifier to defense many opponents are essentially defenseless, and with suggested increases to rounds fired this would be even more apparent with -11 to -14 or even -19 dice pool modifiers.
« Last Edit: <01-17-15/1304:28> by Herr Brackhaus »

Finstersang

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« Reply #6 on: <01-17-15/1408:40> »
Nice call! The high velocity Weapons definitely lack distinction - pretty sloppy work there IMO, considering the fact that Catalyst already had rules for them in SR 4.

I houseruled the HVAR and the Vindi by giving them an additional Firemode (HV), but making no further destinction between these two.

HV Mode offers 4 Methods of Attack, quite like suggested above:

Short HV Burst (Simple Action, 10 Shots)
Long HV Burst (Komplex Action, 15 Shots)
Aimed HV Burst (Komplex Action, 10 Shots, no defense reduction but +5 DV)*
HV Suppressing Fire (Komplex Action, uses 30 Bullets, counts as Enhanced Suppression, increases Dice Pool Reduction and Damage by 150%)

Sadly, I have yet to see a HVAR or a Vindi fired ingame, so I can´t really say if the numbers work out.

* I also increased the DV Bonus for Aimed Burst and Brain Blaster Actions (Run&Gun) to +2 and +3, because they lacked the payoff
« Last Edit: <01-17-15/1410:37> by Finstersang »

Kincaid

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« Reply #7 on: <01-17-15/1700:17> »
From a simulationist standpoint, having these guns spit out more rounds/action makes sense.  That creates some rather significant game balance issues, however.  It's essentially all the benefits of a shotgun choke added to an assault rifle with none of the drawbacks.

I'd still love to see something for these guns.  A better version of suppressive fire is good.  I'd also think about reintroducing the ability to "walk" a burst from on target to the next.
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Lucean

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« Reply #8 on: <01-19-15/0206:54> »
20 rounds is just too much, even if you lose 10-12 dice because of recoil, your opponent will essentially be defenseless, up to the point where you could apply RG6 and increase damage for reducing the defense pool below zero.
So +1 round per simple action or +2 rounds per complex action for high velocity weapons seems more balanced and in line with SR4 Arsenal, as well as 15 rounds per complex action for the Vindicator, although I would also keep the requirement of needing a simple action to reach firing speed first. So a Vindicator could fire those 15 rounds starting with the second pass as well as requiring some serious recoil compensation.

Squirrel

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« Reply #9 on: <01-19-15/0541:41> »
The delay action to rotate the barrels is making this gun useless AND is complete technical nonsense. It has to leave asap!

http://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?270616-Why-Are-game-developers-so-ignorant-of-how-gatling-weapons-work-that-they-add-spinup
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #10 on: <01-19-15/0722:46> »
Well you can actually fire in turn 1 since you now can fire a 6 bullet burst as a simple action in FA mode.
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #11 on: <01-23-15/0400:36> »
Thank you to all who pitched in. I ended going;


(RG) "Minigun" rate of Fire; some weapons, such as the Ares HVAR rifle and GE Vindicator Minigun fire at an extreme rate of fire. To simulate this any Full Auto mode attack uses 50% extra rounds. A Simple action FA burst becomes 9 rounds and a Complex action uses 15 rounds. Also the Brain Blaster Complex Action uses 9 bullets and gives a +3 DV bonus.

(RG) The GE Vindicator Minigun fires at an insane rate of fire. In addition to using the "minigun rates" above, during Suppression the minigun uses 40 bullets. This enables the weapon to either cover twice the area OR do 1.5 times the damage (round up).
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #12 on: <01-23-15/0647:28> »
Nice; those are good compromises which I'll steal for myself! Call them RG7 and RG8 optional rules. Good job!

Namikaze

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« Reply #13 on: <01-23-15/1326:08> »
I agree - those rules seem extremely fair and reasonable.
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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #14 on: <01-23-15/1419:13> »
I might pitch them to my gm as well, thanks!
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

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