Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: PiXeL01 on <01-17-15/0633:33>
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As it stands now there aren't any reasons to ever buy or use either the vindicator Minigun or the HVAR rifle even though their fluff states they fire at a much higher rate than any other weapons.
I would like the weapons to reflect that.
I recall that in SR2 at least both types of weapons used the doubled amount or more rounds when firing burst or FA while having a really unmanageable recoil.
My quick and not that much thought through suggestions would be for these weapons to use their complex firing modes as simple actions.
Or be able to use twice the amount of rounds for double the penalties when suppressing.
Any other ideas?
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I agree completely with this sentiment.
SR4 had slightly different rules for HVAR weapons and mini-guns, and I personally think this is appropriate.
HVAR weapons could be allowed to fire more rounds per action; a simple change would be to add 3 rounds to each Full Auto mode, making it 9 and 12 for Simple vs Complex. Another option is to allow for multiple attacks with the same burst similar to shotgun choke settings. HVAR weapons in 4th had no change to suppressive fire rules.
Mini-guns could similarly be altered slightly; I like your idea of allowing a 10-round burst with a simple action, though I'd also allow a 15-round burst with a complex action. Additionally, a mini-gun weapon in 4th had an elegant change to suppressive fire that I like; instead of 20 rounds, these weapons use 30 rounds when employed for suppressive fire and the base damage inflicted is 1.5 times (rounding up). A Vindicator would therefore be 14P -4AP when used for suppressive fire, compared to its 9P -4AP when used for normal attack actions, though a complex action with one could impose a -14 dice pool modifier (virtually guaranteeing a hit against almost anything).
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Which seems fair to me, given the Availability and cost of the Vindicator.
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I think the rounds should automatically negate a certain amount of hardened armor. The rounds are high velocity, not the firing chamber.
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Miniguns spit out more rounds per second/ minute than any other weapon system due to the multiple barrells.
The velocity of those rounds is not much different from a normal weapon of the same caliber (i.e. light or heavy mg).
So I would not alter AP or damage codes but I would allow them to spit out DOUBLE or TRIPLE the number of rounds that a normal weapon could (although the recoil would be horrendous, they are meant to be vehicle mounted weapons).
And they should not be able to fire short bursts, full-auto or nothing for these things as the barrells do take a second or two to spin up to speed.
So yeah a short burst = 10 rounds, a long burst = 20 rounds and I like the suppressive fire change you note brakhaus but perhaps even increase the AREA the suppressive fire covers.
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I think the rounds should automatically negate a certain amount of hardened armor. The rounds are high velocity, not the firing chamber.
I don't personally think hardened armor should be negated by volume of fire; this is what armor piercing is for, in my opinion.
A Vindicator firing APDS rounds is already at -8 AP, and using the Bulls-Eye action this could be increased to -12AP (4*3) or even -16AP ((4*3)+4), depending on reading. Even in full heavy mil-spec armor (20+3), -12 AP represents a reduction in armor rating by 52% while -16AP would represent a reduction of 70%. Expensive, yes, but taking out the metahuman equivalent of a walking tank should probably have a significant cost.
Miniguns spit out more rounds per second/ minute than any other weapon system due to the multiple barrells.
The velocity of those rounds is not much different from a normal weapon of the same caliber (i.e. light or heavy mg).
Traditional Gatling style weapons like the M134 Minigun and the GAU-8 Avenger feature high rates of fire in the thousands of rounds per minute. However, it should be noted that this is insignificant when compared to experimental technology like that developed by Metal Storm, which have a proven firing rate in the hundreds of thousands of rounds per minute, with the potential of exceeding one million rounds per minute (prototype 36-barrel weapons fired a 180 round burst in 0.01 seconds). Just saying ;)
You are right on the mark about muzzle velocities, though. I agree completely on this point.
So I would not alter AP or damage codes but I would allow them to spit out DOUBLE or TRIPLE the number of rounds that a normal weapon could (although the recoil would be horrendous, they are meant to be vehicle mounted weapons).
And they should not be able to fire short bursts, full-auto or nothing for these things as the barrells do take a second or two to spin up to speed.
So yeah a short burst = 10 rounds, a long burst = 20 rounds and I like the suppressive fire change you note brakhaus but perhaps even increase the AREA the suppressive fire covers.
I agree on AP and damage codes. As for recoil, it might still be manageable, though it would take a Troll with Metagentic Attribute (Strength) to do so effectively.
Gas Vent 3 + Gyro mount 6 + STR 6 = 15 Recoil Compensation
Even with "just" the Gyro mount and gas vent 3 system you're looking at 10 recoil compensation from a bare minimum strength attribute. That would handle 10 round bursts in an of itself, though 20 round bursts would be almost unmanageable even for strong characters; a Strength 6 Human would suffer a -8 dice pool modifier. A 20 round burst would also impose a -19 dice pool modifier to defense, which quite frankly just seems excessive.
In short, I'd stick with the Arsenal rules, but modified for SR5 due to difference in firing modes between editions.
Edit:
Using the optional RG6: Damage for no defense rule might also be appropriate to represent how deadly MGs are. With a -9 dice pool modifier to defense many opponents are essentially defenseless, and with suggested increases to rounds fired this would be even more apparent with -11 to -14 or even -19 dice pool modifiers.
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Nice call! The high velocity Weapons definitely lack distinction - pretty sloppy work there IMO, considering the fact that Catalyst already had rules for them in SR 4.
I houseruled the HVAR and the Vindi by giving them an additional Firemode (HV), but making no further destinction between these two.
HV Mode offers 4 Methods of Attack, quite like suggested above:
Short HV Burst (Simple Action, 10 Shots)
Long HV Burst (Komplex Action, 15 Shots)
Aimed HV Burst (Komplex Action, 10 Shots, no defense reduction but +5 DV)*
HV Suppressing Fire (Komplex Action, uses 30 Bullets, counts as Enhanced Suppression, increases Dice Pool Reduction and Damage by 150%)
Sadly, I have yet to see a HVAR or a Vindi fired ingame, so I canīt really say if the numbers work out.
* I also increased the DV Bonus for Aimed Burst and Brain Blaster Actions (Run&Gun) to +2 and +3, because they lacked the payoff
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From a simulationist standpoint, having these guns spit out more rounds/action makes sense. That creates some rather significant game balance issues, however. It's essentially all the benefits of a shotgun choke added to an assault rifle with none of the drawbacks.
I'd still love to see something for these guns. A better version of suppressive fire is good. I'd also think about reintroducing the ability to "walk" a burst from on target to the next.
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20 rounds is just too much, even if you lose 10-12 dice because of recoil, your opponent will essentially be defenseless, up to the point where you could apply RG6 and increase damage for reducing the defense pool below zero.
So +1 round per simple action or +2 rounds per complex action for high velocity weapons seems more balanced and in line with SR4 Arsenal, as well as 15 rounds per complex action for the Vindicator, although I would also keep the requirement of needing a simple action to reach firing speed first. So a Vindicator could fire those 15 rounds starting with the second pass as well as requiring some serious recoil compensation.
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The delay action to rotate the barrels is making this gun useless AND is complete technical nonsense. It has to leave asap!
http://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?270616-Why-Are-game-developers-so-ignorant-of-how-gatling-weapons-work-that-they-add-spinup
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Well you can actually fire in turn 1 since you now can fire a 6 bullet burst as a simple action in FA mode.
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Thank you to all who pitched in. I ended going;
(RG) "Minigun" rate of Fire; some weapons, such as the Ares HVAR rifle and GE Vindicator Minigun fire at an extreme rate of fire. To simulate this any Full Auto mode attack uses 50% extra rounds. A Simple action FA burst becomes 9 rounds and a Complex action uses 15 rounds. Also the Brain Blaster Complex Action uses 9 bullets and gives a +3 DV bonus.
(RG) The GE Vindicator Minigun fires at an insane rate of fire. In addition to using the "minigun rates" above, during Suppression the minigun uses 40 bullets. This enables the weapon to either cover twice the area OR do 1.5 times the damage (round up).
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Nice; those are good compromises which I'll steal for myself! Call them RG7 and RG8 optional rules. Good job!
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I agree - those rules seem extremely fair and reasonable.
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I might pitch them to my gm as well, thanks!
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The delay action to rotate the barrels is making this gun useless AND is complete technical nonsense. It has to leave asap!
http://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?270616-Why-Are-game-developers-so-ignorant-of-how-gatling-weapons-work-that-they-add-spinup
Trust me, there is a "warm up" time. it's not as long as what they are suggesting in the rules, but it is there.
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Assuming you ae correct:
Is it even remotely long enough to be of any relevance to game rules?
My observations of miniguns do not indicate any delay of any perceivable length.
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There is no motor in existence that goes from 0rpm to 800rpm in 0.00 seconds. Without knowing the motor size and supply i can't tell you the lag time. I would imagine .25 to 1 sec for full speed.
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There is no motor in existence that goes from 0rpm to 800rpm in 0.00 seconds. Without knowing the motor size and supply i can't tell you the lag time. I would imagine .25 to 1 sec for full speed.
In 0.0s, no. But modern day electric motors powered by enough current to drive the load could be close enough to where it makes no practical difference.
Since we don't know what it would take to spin the barrels of a Vindicator it's hard to calculate if a real-world electric motor exists that could do the job. My money is on yes; with great power comes great torque :)
I will say that I personally think 1s is way too long from a theoretical electrical engineering point of view, but from a game mechanics point of view it really doesn't matter.
It's not like one couldn't housefule out the spin-up time if one was so inclined.
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I do deal in motors all the time. They are a full 60% of an industrial electrician's job. And controlling motors and their RPM balanced by the inrush current and countermotive force, and just general electrical properties i can give you rough times, and rough current needed to get the barrels to max RPM in the least time, if i have all the variables.
The most efficient motors i know of measurable speed (800-1000 rpm, for a volume of fire of 4800-6000 rounds a minute.) Take .25 seconds under no load conditions (the drive that spins the barrels is not engaged, with the shaft of the motor) and up to 2 minutes under max load conditions. Its not as simple as "more power"...
Now game mechanics wise is this really important? That depends on the side of the agrument you sit. But as you said, if you don't want the spin in your house games, don't use it.
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I can't find any specs for the newer Dillon motors, but the original GE ones used on the M134 pulls around 60 amps on 24-28V @ 3000 rpm according to multiple websites. Higher rate of fire = higher power draw, and as one would expect the current spikes when firing begins.
That being said, I think the biggest issue I have with combat abstraction in general is the split of combat turns and how it affects certain things; a simple action for someone with one action phase represents a full 1.5s, while for someone with three action phases a simple action is a mere .5s. So the Vindicator spins up at different speeds for different characters. This more than any other concern is probably why I would just dismiss the need for spending a simple action to spin up the barrel; in short, I don't think it's a sufficiently balanced game mechanic.
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Used to be it was just 1 combat turn - so 3s all-around. Eternity if you're waiting for it to go ...
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I can't find any specs for the newer Dillon motors, but the original GE ones used on the M134 pulls around 60 amps on 24-28V @ 3000 rpm according to multiple websites. Higher rate of fire = higher power draw, and as one would expect the current spikes when firing begins.
That being said, I think the biggest issue I have with combat abstraction in general is the split of combat turns and how it affects certain things; a simple action for someone with one action phase represents a full 1.5s, while for someone with three action phases a simple action is a mere .5s. So the Vindicator spins up at different speeds for different characters. This more than any other concern is probably why I would just dismiss the need for spending a simple action to spin up the barrel; in short, I don't think it's a sufficiently balanced game mechanic.
That's not much to go off of, but i'll throw some numbers up for you:
Assuming 28VDC @ 60 rated load, 100% eff motor and 0.0 resistive load: generates 2.25 hp of work at 60hz. To go from 0 to 3000 rpm would take 11 time intervals, for a total time of 0.25 seconds.
Now the problems there are: No motor is 100% efficient. You always lose energy, usually in the form of heat. The other problem is, there is no such thing as an unresistive load. Electricity is the flow of electrons, for something to flow, it must overcome inertia to start (resistance!), then the resistance of all the other particles pressing against it (you get the idea). And so on..
Once you factor in the resistance and efficiency, the time to full rpm could be as high as 1.95 seconds (and this is assuming GE kept to its general standards as a minimum)
However, personally i can see it being closer to .4 to .6 of a second. (This is assuming the use of some complex and expensive electrical eqiupment normally only seen used on massive 2500hp+ motors.)
But that isn't a game issue. Considering the massive nerf pounding Hvar/mini guns have gotten in 5th, they do need some fixing, if only to maintain their "cool" factor.
I have always thought of these weapons as the ultimate squad support weapon. Not because of damage, but because they can totally suppress large areas of badguys easily. But in 5e they have lost that edge. There is now no reason to take a minigun or Hvar, as any assault rifle can do just as good a job.
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Nah, lets have them get up to full speed in milliseconds. Conservation of angular momentum will be hilarious!
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Nice work Reaver, I likey!
And yeah, they should be the ultimate suppressive fire weapon, no doubt.
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Dig it Pixel, I am pinching that for my table too, thanks.
Thank you to all who pitched in. I ended going;
(RG) "Minigun" rate of Fire; some weapons, such as the Ares HVAR rifle and GE Vindicator Minigun fire at an extreme rate of fire. To simulate this any Full Auto mode attack uses 50% extra rounds. A Simple action FA burst becomes 9 rounds and a Complex action uses 15 rounds. Also the Brain Blaster Complex Action uses 9 bullets and gives a +3 DV bonus.
(RG) The GE Vindicator Minigun fires at an insane rate of fire. In addition to using the "minigun rates" above, during Suppression the minigun uses 40 bullets. This enables the weapon to either cover twice the area OR do 1.5 times the damage (round up).
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Yeah, I'll be using this as well, I've been looking for something to make these guns stand out a bit.