Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Big_J on <09-30-11/1108:42>
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Any ideas how to confound or how to defend against a p.c. wielding one?
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Have opponents keep him at a distance to negate melee combat, is the simplest way.
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As mentioned already avoid melee combat. Other options include putting PC cover in the way, closing and disarming, or a personal fave of mine: a taste of their own medicine. Any of these should work.
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Shoot him from a very long way away.
Set a pack of Barghests on him.
Have Lone Star search him, take it away, and then throw him in the lock-up besides a mad and lonely troll named Bubba.
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For other options, I suppose we'd have to know what the character was like that was making the Monofilament Whip a problem - a Hacker or a Face with a low combat skill using one is a little different to a Troll Street Samurai or Physical Adept with maxed out skills using one.
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Remember to use the glitch and critical glitch rules, that thing has a nasty backfire.
Also, invest in better impact armor and stay out of melee.
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Fully Automatic Shotgun.
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1.) Take a Roto-drone
2.) Take 4 Mono-whips
3.) Attach Mono-whips to Rotors of Roto-drone
4.) Sic it on the player
On a more realistic note, the mono-ship has like twenty years of notoriety in game. Anyone that sees the dude pool it out is going to immediately try to frag the dude with the mono-whip unless they just flat out can't. And I don't just mean shoot him, I mean overkill. I feel free to chunk grenades, FA fire, and overcast powerbolts on guys with them, because that's what the sec guards would be doing. It's a terrifying weapon. If they don't have anything of the like, run away. Lock themselves in a Sec Room and call Rapid Response backup. After all, anyone that can get their hands on a mono-whip and feels comfortable using it is a much higher threat than what your average joe rent-a-cop is paid to deal with.
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What exactly is the threat that the average Joe Rent-a-Cop paid for, anyhow? I mean, considering the pay rate, I doubt they'd even want to tangle with the geriatrics with canes. They could get beaten badly, after all... Or written up and fired for tasering them after the severe beating they got from cane-weilding Granny.
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What exactly is the threat that the average Joe Rent-a-Cop paid for, anyhow? I mean, considering the pay rate, I doubt they'd even want to tangle with the geriatrics with canes. They could get beaten badly, after all... Or written up and fired for tasering them after the severe beating they got from cane-weilding Granny.
Yeah - they're pretty much "spot problem, report problem, eat donuts, go home to family" - no sense being a hero.
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Rent-a-Cop: "To Observe and Report"
Oh, wait, they can harass young kids for being "Potential Shoplifters" due to chronological profiling! ;D
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Rent-a-Cop: "To Observe and Report"
Oh, wait, they can harass young kids for being "Potential Shoplifters" due to chronological profiling! ;D
That's all part of the "choosing your battles" code that these guys live by. Also known as "how to feel like a Big Man" :P
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The way I personally play normal rent-a-cops/security guards is that anything larger than a heavy pistol will cause them to call in back as will overwhelming numbers. I see them as their to keep the ever present gangers at bay and maybe deal with the occasional "I can't believe that SOB fired me" ex-employee with a gun situation. Of course, anytime a weapon is fired (no matter what kind) they call in backup as they respond or hide.
So when a group of runners come strolling in carrying ARs, howitzers and a random kitchen sink, most of my sec guards (unless they're highly trained for a secure location/headquarters type job) will immediately grab good cover and call in back up rather than engage them. It drives my group crazy, but I feel that it makes more sense from a role-playing perspective. I mean, if I were making 50 bucks an hour (far more than the average sec guard in 2072 I would wager) I still wouldn't try to take on a team of para-military armed guys when all i have is a 9mm or .45. I'd hide, get the License Plate, and if I were feeling ridiculously adventurous maybe pull their valve stems so they have to get away on four flats.
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"Why do you bring that kitchen sink everywhere, Mungo?" "Came in handy first 'Run. Good luck charm. Also, handy for hitting other Trolls with." "Ah yes, nothing like a good bit of stainless steel, I agree."
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The way I personally play normal rent-a-cops/security guards is that anything larger than a heavy pistol will cause them to call in back as will overwhelming numbers. I see them as their to keep the ever present gangers at bay and maybe deal with the occasional "I can't believe that SOB fired me" ex-employee with a gun situation. Of course, anytime a weapon is fired (no matter what kind) they call in backup as they respond or hide.
So when a group of runners come strolling in carrying ARs, howitzers and a random kitchen sink, most of my sec guards (unless they're highly trained for a secure location/headquarters type job) will immediately grab good cover and call in back up rather than engage them. It drives my group crazy, but I feel that it makes more sense from a role-playing perspective. I mean, if I were making 50 bucks an hour (far more than the average sec guard in 2072 I would wager) I still wouldn't try to take on a team of para-military armed guys when all i have is a 9mm or .45. I'd hide, get the License Plate, and if I were feeling ridiculously adventurous maybe pull their valve stems so they have to get away on four flats.
IMNSHO, that's how they should be played. Part of being a good GM is knowing how to step into the role of your NPCs - "if I was a Rent-o'-Cop, what would I do?". I do the same thing with Lone Star/Knight Errant, and with RR/HTR/FTR/SWAT/whatever. It's not Old School D&D, where your monsters act without rhyme or reason and are there to fight the PCs to the death.
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"You go into a ten-foot by ten-foot room with an ork protecting her chest, she screams, 'Get out of here you perverts! This is the woman's shower!', and decks the Hacker."
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"You go into a ten-foot by ten-foot room with an ork protecting her chest, she screams, 'Get out of here you perverts! This is the woman's shower!', and decks the Hacker."
"You have to roll for Surprise, first. My Elf is only surprised 1 in 6."
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Now why would she be decking in the shower? ;D
My NPCs don't really attack the PCs most of the time. Instead they try to prolong the PCs escape for the back up to arrive. I'm a huge fan of CS/Tear gas, flash-bangs, suppressive fire, and good old thermal smoke. I'm also really hard on group vehicles, of course now they have a rigger that's always inside keeping an eye on things, but that just means their wheels have a tendency to drive off on their own when things get heavy.
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Now why would she be decking in the shower? ;D
My NPCs don't really attack the PCs most of the time. Instead they try to prolong the PCs escape for the back up to arrive. I'm a huge fan of CS/Tear gas, flash-bangs, suppressive fire, and good old thermal smoke. I'm also really hard on group vehicles, of course now they have a rigger that's always inside keeping an eye on things, but that just means their wheels have a tendency to drive off on their own when things get heavy.
Well, given how much paperwork that is involved after the event for incident reports that involve drawing weapons, firing weapons, wounding someone and killing someone - it's not worth it for an NPC. He doesn't want his superior busting his chops for his paperwork at the end of the month! ;)
A lot of the time my NPCs will find a nice safe location that they can act from if they have to, and have their actions delayed so they can if and when the time arrives. I've had NPCs keep superior (on paper) PCs at bay this way (and on more than one occasion I've had an NPC secure a location like this, get the word from back-up to get the hell out of there, and do so in such a way that the PCs still think they're there).
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Reminds me of an unwilling extraction my group was hired to do once. They made a loud noisy botch of entering the guys office building and he saw them coming to his office on his security cams, so he tossed on his emergency Chameleon Cloak (Honestly 11k to have one of these things with Thermal Dampening at 6) and hid in the closet. The group did a cursory sweep of the office (didn't even look in the closet) and left to search the rest of the building.
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if I were making 50 bucks an hour (far more than the average sec guard in 2072 I would wager)
I just had to dig out my copy of the LoneStar Sourcebook (because I honestly couldn't remember how much they were paid, but I knew it was crap, and I knew it was in there). Roughly 20,000 nuyen a year annually for a newly sworn peace officer on the street track. Which works out to be about 10 nuyen an hour. Definitely not worth getting shot and killed over ;)
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IM"NS"HO?
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IM"NS"HO?
In My Not So Humble Opinion.
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Keep in mind though that this is a distopic future. A street cop or security guard won't hesitate to discourage riff raff like gangers, SINless and the rest of the disenfranchised with a few hits or a blast of Liquid Pain brand pepper punch, and higher end ones are willing and authorized to shoot someone, reacting more like trained soldiers then rent-a-cops.
Try to walk up to a hot lab and you are less likely to run into someone there to observe, report and discourage trouble then some running though Shout-Show-Shove-Shoot ROE in their head while they point an assault rifle at you.
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Keep in mind though that this is a distopic future. A street cop or security guard won't hesitate to discourage riff raff like gangers, SINless and the rest of the disenfranchised with a few hits or a blast of Liquid Pain brand pepper punch, and higher end ones are willing and authorized to shoot someone, reacting more like trained soldiers then rent-a-cops.
If they think it is a battle they can win, sure, if it's not, forget about it. Acting like a trained security guard, street cop, or whatever means you should know your limitations, and know that there is safety in back-up, if it's a problem that you can't handle without breaking a sweat.
Try to walk up to a hot lab and you are less likely to run into someone there to observe, report and discourage trouble then some running though Shout-Show-Shove-Shoot ROE in their head while they point an assault rifle at you.
Sure, and you'll have the better skills, training, weapons, armor, salary and cyber to suit your position there, and also have a better back-up to call in when things look like they are going to get too much.
It's all about playing your NPCs to their role, abilities and their limitations.
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Exactly. I'm all for playing the NPCs with the stats and mental abilities they realistically should have. Shadowruns will tend to be balanced for the capabilties of the characters, but the wider world should be internally consistent - that mall security guard shouldn't suddenly have automatics: 6, nor should the Leopard Guards suddenly get gimped because the PCs decided to attack an Aztechnology facility out of the blue.
Back to the original question - melee is a niche role already, so be careful not to go overboard countering the PC. If he is using it all the time, then people firing from windows, or cover, or from a distance, should remind him that long range weapons are usually the better option to use. But a monofilament whip should be extremely effective when you can use it.
Some things to keep in mind, though. It is a distinctive (although easily hidden) weapon with the Forbidden legality code. Using one should get about the same reaction from law enforcement as using an assault rifle. It also makes a big mess (be sure to wear a poncho, or at least a bib, when using your monofilament whip ;D). Decapitated/dismembered bodies are a bit rarer than merely shot or stabbed ones. This could make the group easier to track, or even give them some Notoriety.
It is effective, but not at the top of the melee food chain - punching specialists, especially trolls and/or adepts, can do more damage, and two-weapon fighters with the right maneuvers will have a very dense defense (since two-weapon fighting gives you full defense with no cost of an action). And melee itself is not as common or versatile as ranged combat.
But someone using a monofilament whip, who is good with it, should dominate most melee fights. Shadowrun is chock full of one-shot kills, so this is not unusual at all. I would worry less about it, and let the player have fun. Although I would still keep the reactions of the game world realistic.
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You don't know true terror until you see the ambidextrous troll character with SURGE III who took Celerity and Satyr Legs to have a run speed of 70, took Mono-whips at 6 with a specialty in dual wielding, and metegenetically improved their Agility and took martial arts training. Ever see what happens when you "parry" with a monowhip? Well, now THEIR weapon is gone...
Now cyber that troll up with 3 IPs and Muscle replacements...or adept him up with great leap and freefall and wall running, and add stealth skills...
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You don't know true terror until you see the ambidextrous troll character with SURGE III who took Celerity and Satyr Legs to have a run speed of 70, took Mono-whips at 6 with a specialty in dual wielding, and metegenetically improved their Agility and took martial arts training. Ever see what happens when you "parry" with a monowhip? Well, now THEIR weapon is gone...
Now cyber that troll up with 3 IPs and Muscle replacements...or adept him up with great leap and freefall and wall running, and add stealth skills...
and then, he trips.
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and lulz ensue.
Seriously, though, that build was scary and I would probably veto it instantly if anyone actually brought him to a session. Slinging 10 dice per whip is just not cool.
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Why is that not cool? That's no scarier then a mage who can kill you with his brain with an overcasted F10 manabolt which in my group is par for the course. Also for the record none of us are power gamers. 14-18 dice is usual for what a PCs specialty is.
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If your Monofilament Whip wielder is just a one-trick pony, then it's not hard to find ways to negate the trick if you really want to. But, as has been said, there are plenty of other ways to make a one-trick pony, and so long as everyone is having fun, then there shouldn't be a problem.
Now, if everyone in the team were packing these, and using them all the time, then there might be some serious cause for concern...
And now I have Devo stuck in my head... 8)
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Think that's bad? Try playing Interstate '82. Couldn't get them out of my head for a month.
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Well, anythings gotta be better than the New Age crap I have to listen to all day every day, at work, I suppose.
*sits back and enjoys the internal music*
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Keep in mind though that this is a distopic future. A street cop or security guard won't hesitate to discourage riff raff like gangers, SINless and the rest of the disenfranchised with a few hits or a blast of Liquid Pain brand pepper punch, and higher end ones are willing and authorized to shoot someone, reacting more like trained soldiers then rent-a-cops.
If they think it is a battle they can win, sure, if it's not, forget about it. Acting like a trained security guard, street cop, or whatever means you should know your limitations, and know that there is safety in back-up, if it's a problem that you can't handle without breaking a sweat.
Try to walk up to a hot lab and you are less likely to run into someone there to observe, report and discourage trouble then some running though Shout-Show-Shove-Shoot ROE in their head while they point an assault rifle at you.
Sure, and you'll have the better skills, training, weapons, armor, salary and cyber to suit your position there, and also have a better back-up to call in when things look like they are going to get too much.
It's all about playing your NPCs to their role, abilities and their limitations.
I have to chime in here being Security and all. I find that there are 4 tiers to security. The lowest with least chance of altercations are the paper pushers. These are the dispatchers, access control, and IT security guys. These guys are the nervous system of security. Someone wants to get in, well these guys figure out if they are suppoed to be there. (Mr. Johnson, I have a Spike here to see you. Alright, I will let the boys know.)
Then there are the Security Guards. These are your observe and report guys. Their whole job is to watch and listen. If they have a weapon, it's probablt just a flashlight they use as a makeshift club. (Dispatch, I got a lab door that is unsecured, I'm going to do a walk through...CRAP! I need backup there is a Troll in here and he doesn't look happy. Sir, Please put the axe down.)
Security Officers are trained to go hands on or use weapons. But nothing bigger than a heavy pistol or maybe shotgun/AR with SnS rounds. Leathal, maybe, but main purpose is to detain or subdue. (Dispatch this is 241, I have spotted the BOLO and am engaging. Sir, put your weapon on the ground and step away, you have 3 seconds to comply... [bite me rent-a-cop]..Have it your way **opens fire** Target is down, securing for PD)
High Threat Response is something we don't have now. Well not on anything short of a military facility. These are the SWAT of Corp. Sec. These are your Red Sams, your elite of the Elite. (We have spoted the suspect, opening Fire)
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High Threat Response is something we don't have now. Well not on anything short of a military facility. These are the SWAT of Corp. Sec. These are your Red Sams, your elite of the Elite. (We have spoted the suspect, opening Fire)
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "we don't have now" - I'm pretty sure we do have them now.
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High Threat Response is something we don't have now. Well not on anything short of a military facility. These are the SWAT of Corp. Sec. These are your Red Sams, your elite of the Elite. (We have spoted the suspect, opening Fire)
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "we don't have now" - I'm pretty sure we do have them now.
No not really, on military installations yes, because well it's the military. Most Corp. Sec. In modern day get's the cops involved. The SWAT is actual SWAT. Not Militarized security forces.
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High Threat Response is something we don't have now. Well not on anything short of a military facility. These are the SWAT of Corp. Sec. These are your Red Sams, your elite of the Elite. (We have spoted the suspect, opening Fire)
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "we don't have now" - I'm pretty sure we do have them now.
No not really, on military installations yes, because well it's the military. Most Corp. Sec. In modern day get's the cops involved. The SWAT is actual SWAT. Not Militarized security forces.
My bad - when I read "security" I usually dual-read it as security/cops.
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High Threat Response is something we don't have now. Well not on anything short of a military facility. These are the SWAT of Corp. Sec. These are your Red Sams, your elite of the Elite. (We have spoted the suspect, opening Fire)
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "we don't have now" - I'm pretty sure we do have them now.
No not really, on military installations yes, because well it's the military. Most Corp. Sec. In modern day get's the cops involved. The SWAT is actual SWAT. Not Militarized security forces.
My bad - when I read "security" I usually dual-read it as security/cops.
I understand. Remember in Shadowrun the reasons Corps. Are able to have such militarized units was because of the incident where there had been the truckers strike and some scabs were hauling medical waste out of NYC and rioters thought it was a food shipment. We haven't had that happen yet.
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High Threat Response is something we don't have now. Well not on anything short of a military facility. These are the SWAT of Corp. Sec. These are your Red Sams, your elite of the Elite. (We have spoted the suspect, opening Fire)
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "we don't have now" - I'm pretty sure we do have them now.
No not really, on military installations yes, because well it's the military. Most Corp. Sec. In modern day get's the cops involved. The SWAT is actual SWAT. Not Militarized security forces.
My bad - when I read "security" I usually dual-read it as security/cops.
I understand. Remember in Shadowrun the reasons Corps. Are able to have such militarized units was because of the incident where there had been the truckers strike and some scabs were hauling medical waste out of NYC and rioters thought it was a food shipment. We haven't had that happen yet.
Yeah - Seretech and The Shiawase Decision. I think of heard of it. ;)
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High Threat Response is something we don't have now. Well not on anything short of a military facility. These are the SWAT of Corp. Sec. These are your Red Sams, your elite of the Elite. (We have spoted the suspect, opening Fire)
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "we don't have now" - I'm pretty sure we do have them now.
No not really, on military installations yes, because well it's the military. Most Corp. Sec. In modern day get's the cops involved. The SWAT is actual SWAT. Not Militarized security forces.
My bad - when I read "security" I usually dual-read it as security/cops.
I understand. Remember in Shadowrun the reasons Corps. Are able to have such militarized units was because of the incident where there had been the truckers strike and some scabs were hauling medical waste out of NYC and rioters thought it was a food shipment. We haven't had that happen yet.
Yeah - Seretech and The Shiawase Decision. I think of heard of it. ;)
Seretech more than Shiawase. Shiawase gave them extraterritoriality, Seretech gave them armies.
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Only a matter of time... Of course, the Police are doing a decent enough job at the moment for Corporations and the Rich to be happy with just having them.
See how well that works out now that we're starting to have uprisings all over the world... 'Course, not much different than any other era, really, is it?
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Actually just about any major corporation that has cut throat R&D has their security contracted out to a "security contractor" as in blackwater or whatever now. And those ARE private armies, who were trained by the public army haha. Yeah, on a daily basis they don't have the army in their facility but if shit really hit the fan I'm 99% sure that Bob the corporate security expert would pull out his cell phone and call up his boss and say "We need backup" and his boss would say "I have 9 men on a chopper heading in, 30 minutes out" and there would be 9 guys in full battle rattle with automatic weapons and authority to detain or destroy anyone trespassing. Most places have people from Pinkerton or Securitas or whatever, but major pharmacoms have access to private armies.
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I bet Shiawase bought Seretech. :D
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Actually just about any major corporation that has cut throat R&D has their security contracted out to a "security contractor" as in blackwater or whatever now. And those ARE private armies, who were trained by the public army haha. Yeah, on a daily basis they don't have the army in their facility but if shit really hit the fan I'm 99% sure that Bob the corporate security expert would pull out his cell phone and call up his boss and say "We need backup" and his boss would say "I have 9 men on a chopper heading in, 30 minutes out" and there would be 9 guys in full battle rattle with automatic weapons and authority to detain or destroy anyone trespassing. Most places have people from Pinkerton or Securitas or whatever, but major pharmacoms have access to private armies.
Too much paperwork, the really cutting edge R&D places have wonderful pre-emption security that identifies potential threats before they arrive and escort them / report them / arrange for their arrest. If someone does break in, then the facility shuts down in the roach hotel "you can get in, but not out" style, then the police are invited to apprehend the suspect. See, if the R&D facility shoots someone, that makes their facility an active crime scene with the R&D facility as the suspect. That's bad for business.
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What is worse for business? Letting someone live who knows anything about your current research project, or sanitizing the scene and letting the police piss into the wind while investigating the crime scene?
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What is worse for business? Letting someone live who knows anything about your current research project, or sanitizing the scene and letting the police piss into the wind while investigating the crime scene?
Sanitizing the scene. Do you know how hard it is to commit to memory anything that's actually useful for R&D? Seriously, it took me months just to remember some of the more basic shit we've got at work and we're not even cutting edge. Anything that's truly worth knowing is going to be a complex chemical formula or a bizarre combination of electronics. Good luck remembering how that cold-fusion system is assembled a month later when you're trying to sell the concept to GE and don't even have any of the plans or research data that support your memory for the seller.
Besides, how many effective thieves and spies are also versed enough in whatever scientific field the facility they're robbing specializes in that they can make sense of what's important and what's not? Corporate espionage relies on getting the actual data sheets out of the company - without getting caught.
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What is worse for business? Letting someone live who knows anything about your current research project, or sanitizing the scene and letting the police piss into the wind while investigating the crime scene?
Time is money, especially in R&D.
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Call Centres as well. There was a Sniper in the building where a major call centre was back home (Based out of the office building section of a mall.).
Guess which was the only store/office not to be evacuated, or even alerted to the danger, and would have given him over 1,000 potential hostages?
Oh, but Management got out, that was the important part.
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I can understand why. If something happens at our hospital, we don't let anybody leave. It's put on lockdown.
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Call Centres as well. There was a Sniper in the building where a major call centre was back home (Based out of the office building section of a mall.).
Guess which was the only store/office not to be evacuated, or even alerted to the danger, and would have given him over 1,000 potential hostages?
Oh, but Management got out, that was the important part.
They might have been looking for an opportunity to outsource the Call Center to India, and this was an opportunity too good to ignore?
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Indian call centres weren't in vogue yet.
The swearing I got from folks in the US for "Stealing jobs from good, Red-Blooded Americans" when I worked there... :-\ Still can't go to New York due to the number of death threats I got.
I then did a different tech support job later, they found out I was Canadian, and, "Well... At least you aren't in India."
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Indian call centres weren't in vogue yet.
The swearing I got from folks in the US for "Stealing jobs from good, Red-Blooded Americans" when I worked there... :-\ Still can't go to New York due to the number of death threats I got.
I then did a different tech support job later, they found out I was Canadian, and, "Well... At least you aren't in India."
That's pretty bad. I mean, it'd be one thing if the jobs were being stolen, but I'm pretty sure they are being offered. It's not like India (or Canada, or Mexico, or wherever) is holding a gun to the US employer's head and taking the jobs. Of course, the kind of people that want to (blindly) keep jobs in their country are also the ones that complain about prices and quality, often together...
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Well, at the time the Canadian Dollar was half a US Dollar, so even with the higher wages paid in Canada (Before taxes), it made good fiscal sense. The rise of the Canadian Dollar, and the fall of the US Dollar are sending even those jobs to India.
Back to topic.
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Back to topic.
HEAR, HEAR, amen. Monofilament whips suck as a gm. I say just the first critical glitch he gets roll friend or self. If he gets self lop off a limb.
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Indian call centres weren't in vogue yet.
The swearing I got from folks in the US for "Stealing jobs from good, Red-Blooded Americans" when I worked there... :-\ Still can't go to New York due to the number of death threats I got.
I then did a different tech support job later, they found out I was Canadian, and, "Well... At least you aren't in India."
ouch, yeah the only problem I have is when I can understand the Indi and they aren't understanding me. Especially when they are logging your case to go to someone to help fix your problem and they aren't understanding the actual problem. It can make the problem take a little longer to fix.
Back on topic, I've never looked at a monofilament whip yet, and neither has my group so i haven't had to deal with it yet! lets hope it stays that way eh?
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Only thing I'd use them for is booby-trapping a backtrail. And a few other tricks, aside. ;D
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Monowire is great for booby traps and general compound defenses. I can still remember the reactions I got from players after I read the Corporate Security Handbook and started implementing the stuff from it...
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People are complaining about monofilament whips being overpowered? Monofilament whips? There are plenty of more effective ways to fight... the reason to use the whip is because it is cool, not because it is powerful.
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People are complaining about monofilament whips being overpowered? Monofilament whips? There are plenty of more effective ways to fight... the reason to use the whip is because it is cool, not because it is powerful.
???? It lops off limbs and stuff! Unless the GM just goes 'swing, damage, next' it is one of the most hurtful disabling weapons!
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It's the Lightsabre (AKA: Glowy Stick of Death) of Shadowrun, people. It's cool. It's wonderful. It's expensive. It's rare. It's REALLY hard to use.
Have a nice night.
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It's the Lightsabre (AKA: Glowy Stick of Death) of Shadowrun, people. It's cool. It's wonderful. It's expensive. It's rare. It's REALLY hard to use.
Have a nice night.
You had to say that word. Here's hoping a series of threads about Jedi in Shadowrun aren't about to spawn (again)...
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Hate to break it to you guys but a LIGHTWHIP already exists in the Starwars universe.
Check it out here => Lightwhip (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightwhip)
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Hate to break it to you guys but a LIGHTWHIP already exists in the Starwars universe.
Check it out here => Lightwhip (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightwhip)
Who comes up with this drek. Ok, physics can describe a lightsaber, but not a lightwhip. Lucasfilms shame on you for allowing that into cannon. At least the way they did.
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Hate to break it to you guys but a LIGHTWHIP already exists in the Starwars universe.
Check it out here => Lightwhip (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightwhip)
Who comes up with this drek. Ok, physics can describe a lightsaber, but not a lightwhip. Lucasfilms shame on you for allowing that into cannon. At least the way they did.
As far as I know, you can adjust a lightsaber to pretty much make any shape you want. The key is forming the containment field into the shape you want. If you REALLY wanted for example you could have a Katana Lightsaber. They have staff/spear lightsabers, double bladed, curve hilt, shoto sabers. You can even adjust the length of a lightsaber to more like a claymore. 3 meter long lightsaber blade is possible, can't remember who was weilding one that long but that's a long as reach considering no counter balance and effortless to hold up. Believe I also saw a lightsaber with a mini saber hilt guard near the bottom. Carefull not to cut your hand!
Everyone told me a black lightsaber was impossible they also allowed that one to show up recently in the Force unleashed games loooong after I "made it up". :P too bad i couldn't get some money for that.
[/end star wars rant]
P.S. you can tell I run a starwars RPG website almost just from me knowing that. xD
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Guy in the Darth Bane novel had a three meter saber. he was described as one of the biggest humans on the known galaxy.
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Also a dual-phase lightsabre that has two lengths that you can switch to in order to confuse you opponent by switching combat styles in the middle of a fight.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with Monofilament Whips. I was just comparing the "Ultra-Cool Limb Slicey Devices" of two different universes.
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Also a dual-phase lightsabre that has two lengths that you can switch to in order to confuse you opponent by switching combat styles in the middle of a fight.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with Monofilament Whips. I was just comparing the "Ultra-Cool Limb Slicey Devices" of two different universes.
That's on par with deactivating your lightsaber and reactivating it on the otherside of the opponent's vibroblade/lightsaber.
>.> Also should be noted Darth Bane was a badass, but I still like Darth Revan the best :P. (more because he's not really entirely evil xD)
Anyways we are getting WAAAAAAY off topic. I call you all out! now back to the whip!
>.> which some reason that just registered my mind with a monofiliment whip and kinky sex..... the image didn't end too well for the guy in it. XD (that's what cyberware is for tho right? xD)
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Monofilament whips are really scary. Think about in Johnny Mnemonic what happened to that dang yak.
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Monofilament whips are really scary. Think about in Johnny Mnemonic what happened to that dang yak.
Think about what happened to all the guys that ran into before Johnny pulled that trick.
I'm with the Bartender... Someone's always gotta clean up the damned mess. I really pity the Janitors of Shadowrun. Mainly as I was a Janitor at one time. Yeah, if I ever get published I'll be able to do the "All the weird jobs I had in life" bit pretty well...
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What's so scary about them compared to other weapons?
The only advantage they have against any other Reach 2 weapon is the damage code. If someone has the skill to use a monofilament whip well, they could do nearly as much damage with any other melee weapon. Just put the guy up against a troll melee character wielding a claymore, give him comparable skill and Agility ratings, and... well, I don't see the problem. Even if he's relatively average Strength for a troll (Strength 8), he'll have Reach 3, a base DV of 8P, and a -2 AP versus the monowhip's Reach 2, 8P, -4. Or hell, just put him up against a crazy specialized adept wielding a butter knife, but with a dice pool that's miles ahead of the monowhip wielder's. Melee is all about winning the opposed test.
The monowhip is no more 'overpowered' than, say, a Ruger Super Warhawk. Sure, if you compare it to a Streetline Special it looks ridiculously OP, but it really isn't all that much.
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How many melee weapons do 8 damage with that much of a negative to AP? None. Not to mention it is designed to cut through anything. ANYTHING! Oh look, your gun just got cut in half by my mono molecular whip. Those things are scary.
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"There goes your pistol. There go your fingers. There goes your hand. There goes your forearm. Want to give up now and just lie there, bleeding on the floor? Aw, you went and got my boots dirty. There goes your HEAD!"
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How many melee weapons do 8 damage with that much of a negative to AP? None. Not to mention it is designed to cut through anything. ANYTHING! Oh look, your gun just got cut in half by my mono molecular whip. Those things are scary.
I'm guessing you didn't read my post in full. Also, stun weapons are far more effective against heavily armored opponents.
Also, the "cut through anything" bit is pure house ruling on your part. It does no such thing. It cuts through things more easily than other weapons, but it's not this super wonder insta-severing cosmic wonder weapon you're making it out to be.
Again: The damage codes don't mean anything if you don't have the dice pools to back it up. And if you have the dice pools to back it up, you'd be deadly with just about any melee weapon you got your hands on.
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How many melee weapons do 8 damage with that much of a negative to AP? None. Not to mention it is designed to cut through anything. ANYTHING! Oh look, your gun just got cut in half by my mono molecular whip. Those things are scary.
I'm guessing you didn't read my post in full. Also, stun weapons are far more effective against heavily armored opponents.
Also, the "cut through anything" bit is pure house ruling on your part. It does no such thing. It cuts through things more easily than other weapons, but it's not this super wonder insta-severing cosmic wonder weapon you're making it out to be.
Again: The damage codes don't mean anything if you don't have the dice pools to back it up. And if you have the dice pools to back it up, you'd be deadly with just about any melee weapon you got your hands on.
Every other melee weapon the damage is based off of Strength. Not the Monofilament Whip. The AP is scary how many melee weapons have that high an AP? And actually if you read the fluff for Shadowrun, yeah it does. There is nothing scarier in the fluff than the whip.
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Every other melee weapon the damage is based off of Strength. Not the Monofilament Whip. The AP is scary how many melee weapons have that high an AP? And actually if you read the fluff for Shadowrun, yeah it does. There is nothing scarier in the fluff than the whip.
You should go re-read it yourself. Even if you glitch, you only do the base damage code to yourself. Nothing is automatically severed. And every melee stun weapon (gloves, batons, etc.) have a higher AP of -half, with the AZ-150 being 7S with electrical damage to boot.. Not that AP is the end-all be-all stat you seem to be making it out to be.
And, yet again, I never said the monofilament whip wasn't a strong weapon. It's just not this allegedly overpowered and unstoppable weapon some people in this thread are making it out to be, yourself included. It's a great choice for anyone with a low Strength score, but that's about it. It's like ranting on about the aforementioned Ruger Super Warhawk loaded with armor piercing rounds being mindbogglingly overpowered when you compare it to a Streetline Special with regular rounds That doesn't make the Ruger overpowered. At best, it means hold-out pistols need some loving. This is true with melee weapons, too.
And, also again, a guy wielding a survival knife with a dice pool of 20 is going to stomp all over a guy wielding a monofilament whip with a dice pool of 8 nearly every time. Just like a guy with a monofilament whip with a dice pool of 20 is going to ruin the day of a guy with a survival knife and a dice pool of 8 nearly every time. Dice pools > weapon stats, especially in melee.
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You can insulate against Electricity. You can't get protection against monowire, IIRC.
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Yes you can. It's called armor. Hence the monofilament whip having an AP rating to begin with. And a damage code instead of "instant death and dismemberment" for a damage value.
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Every other melee weapon the damage is based off of Strength. Not the Monofilament Whip. The AP is scary how many melee weapons have that high an AP? And actually if you read the fluff for Shadowrun, yeah it does. There is nothing scarier in the fluff than the whip.
You should go re-read it yourself. Even if you glitch, you only do the base damage code to yourself. Nothing is automatically severed. And every melee stun weapon (gloves, batons, etc.) have a higher AP of -half, with the AZ-150 being 7S with electrical damage to boot.. Not that AP is the end-all be-all stat you seem to be making it out to be.
And, yet again, I never said the monofilament whip wasn't a strong weapon. It's just not this allegedly overpowered and unstoppable weapon some people in this thread are making it out to be, yourself included. It's a great choice for anyone with a low Strength score, but that's about it. It's like ranting on about the aforementioned Ruger Super Warhawk loaded with armor piercing rounds being mindbogglingly overpowered when you compare it to a Streetline Special with regular rounds That doesn't make the Ruger overpowered. At best, it means hold-out pistols need some loving. This is true with melee weapons, too.
And, also again, a guy wielding a survival knife with a dice pool of 20 is going to stomp all over a guy wielding a monofilament whip with a dice pool of 8 nearly every time. Just like a guy with a monofilament whip with a dice pool of 20 is going to ruin the day of a guy with a survival knife and a dice pool of 8 nearly every time. Dice pools > weapon stats, especially in melee.
I'm not saying that the larger dice pool doesn't come out on top. I'm saying that I has a huge advantage. For instance, let's hash the numbers, average human stats and average skills of 3 so on that it's a 6 for a dice pool. On top of that there is a reach of 2. So rolling you need four 1's to glitch, and trading dice gets you two hits. So that being said, just buying two hits, has the possibility of doing 10 damage, now that's a lot of damage. Unfortunately again using completely average stats of 3 for attributes and skills assuming your average joe knows dodge, that's a dice pool of 6. So 3 1's for a glitch and trading dice gives you ...1? Crap that means joe got hit for 9P. Now, average body of three, could soak up to 3, on top of that your average wageslave isn't going to have that much armor. But just for instance we'll give him urban explorer armor, the most common in the game. Now Urban explorer is 6/6, effectively 6/2 against the whip. That means he has a total of 5 dice for a soak roll. That still leaves 4P that will get through. That's minus 1 on all subsequent rolls. If he fails completely, that's 9P. Almost "dead" for this purpose, and at a -3 on all rolls. If he glitches, possible severing, and if he critically glitches, as a standby rule, I feel 3 extra damage is fair because well, you just got jacked up. At 13 you are dead, no ifs ands or buts. That example doesn't even calculate edge into it. And if you go full dodge, you loose your attempt to counter attack, so eventually somone is going to have a bad day. And adding more armor is an advantage but it is still a scary weapon.
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That's the gist, but check your numbers and damage=death amounts.
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Yes, and a single bullet from a guy ten meters away renders your whip wielder completely inept. And dead, using the sorry stats you're using to "prove" how overpowered the whip is.
But, yet again, the monofilament whip is there mostly as a counter to the trolls in the game. Let's use an actual example of someone who matters, rather than the disposable trash combatants you're using. Like, say, a troll with softcapped Strength (10) for starters. Give him a claymore. His melee weapon now has a Reach of 3, a damage value of 9P, and armor penetration of -2. Considering that a damage value of 1 is equal to ~-3 AP, that's practically identical to the stats of a monowhip. And that's just from a soft-capped troll, or augmented ork or dwarf. Heck, a fully augmented human or elf is just one DV point lower. Give it to a fully buffed out troll and you have a DV of, what, 12P?
So why aren't you raging on about how overpowered claymores are? Or no-dachi? Or vibro-swords? Or any other weapon with similar stats? Why is the monofilament (a word that is not synonymous (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/monofilament) with monomolecular, by the way) whip so mindboggling wretched compared to those in the hands of someone who matters? Simply because Joe Normal can use it against Donut Eating Mall Guard to good effect? Well, he could do the same thing with a submachine gun, too. So what?
Nevermind that the real problem is the sorry stats melee weapons have in general. The STR/2 bit is a completely broken and underpowered mechanic in most cases, not a whip that has stats on par with a good firearm loaded with quality rounds.
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His example WAS someone who actually matters, actually. Trolls with hard capped Strength of 10 are not exactly common, and most people using a monowhip to kill someone aren't using them on troll terrors. BTW, Strength 10 IS hardcapped, not softcapped. Finally, your tone is somewhat combative and insulting. Please avoid that.
Also, that claymore is only slightly more effective than a monowhip in the hands of an unnaturally strong troll, but a trained fighter without the unnatural strength who uses monowhips is better every time, due to high damage AND high AP. Just call a shot for the head and slice! whip wielder wins.
Now, guns will shoot a "whip"persnapper dead, dead, dead. That is quite true.
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His example WAS someone who actually matters, actually. Trolls with hard capped Strength of 10 are not exactly common, and most people using a monowhip to kill someone aren't using them on troll terrors. BTW, Strength 10 IS hardcapped, not softcapped. Finally, your tone is somewhat combative and insulting. Please avoid that.
Also, that claymore is only slightly more effective than a monowhip in the hands of an unnaturally strong troll, but a trained fighter without the unnatural strength who uses monowhips is better every time, due to high damage AND high AP. Just call a shot for the head and slice! whip wielder wins.
Now, guns will shoot a "whip"persnapper dead, dead, dead. That is quite true.
Unless they lure them into close range and the NPC's aren't thinking. XD
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Now, guns will shoot a "whip"persnapper dead, dead, dead. That is quite true.
The major point of contention is that he can't understand why the whip is so feared. The problem is he's forgetting something, we aren't comparing the whip to a gun. We are talking about a whip to another melee weapon. I'm not saying that the whip is the end all be all of weapons. A gun at range will beat a melee weapon anyday. But that's not what is in debate.
Now in the end it's your choice on what to arm your character with, that being said, if you don't think it is worth arming your character with it, don't. It's your choice.
BTW, Mason, I thought my numbers were sound. Where were my calculations off?
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Yes, and a single bullet from a guy ten meters away renders your whip wielder completely inept. And dead, using the sorry stats you're using to "prove" how overpowered the whip is.
But, yet again, the monofilament whip is there mostly as a counter to the trolls in the game. Let's use an actual example of someone who matters, rather than the disposable trash combatants you're using. Like, say, a troll with softcapped Strength (10) for starters. Give him a claymore. His melee weapon now has a Reach of 3, a damage value of 9P, and armor penetration of -2. Considering that a damage value of 1 is equal to ~-3 AP, that's practically identical to the stats of a monowhip. And that's just from a soft-capped troll, or augmented ork or dwarf. Heck, a fully augmented human or elf is just one DV point lower. Give it to a fully buffed out troll and you have a DV of, what, 12P?
So why aren't you raging on about how overpowered claymores are? Or no-dachi? Or vibro-swords? Or any other weapon with similar stats? Why is the monofilament (a word that is not synonymous (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/monofilament) with monomolecular, by the way) whip so mindboggling wretched compared to those in the hands of someone who matters? Simply because Joe Normal can use it against Donut Eating Mall Guard to good effect? Well, he could do the same thing with a submachine gun, too. So what?
Nevermind that the real problem is the sorry stats melee weapons have in general. The STR/2 bit is a completely broken and underpowered mechanic in most cases, not a whip that has stats on par with a good firearm loaded with quality rounds.
As for me using sorry stats, I could have used an elf adept with an effective agility of 11, and a weapons skill of 10. Which would have skewed the results even further. Intead I went with deliberatly lower numbers to prove a point. I didn't even throw in edge, to prove a point, with the sorry stats I used it better shows how overpowered it is.
Personally, I like the whip. I avoid using it because it is overpowered. The reason for my choice is because it is a character killer. I tend to use characters that do a job professionally. Lots of stun, leaving no dead so that I don't have people coming after them.
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His example WAS someone who actually matters, actually.
No. His example was of a trash obstacle that's just there to spice up a story. Just like any other painfully average character in the game who gets in the way of a real shadowrunner.
Also, that claymore is only slightly more effective than a monowhip in the hands of an unnaturally strong troll, but a trained fighter without the unnatural strength who uses monowhips is better every time, due to high damage AND high AP. Just call a shot for the head and slice! whip wielder wins.
Now, guns will shoot a "whip"persnapper dead, dead, dead. That is quite true.
Please go back and read the very last line of my previous post.
And, again, Armor Penetration is not this super uber wonder stat you guys keep trying to present it as. It's feeble. It takes an average of 3 points to have any real effect on an outcome, and that outcome is just the difference of one hit. Also, yeah, someone wielding a monofilament whip (which, again, is neither monomolecular nor some magical vorpal weapon) can take out an enemy pretty easily. But they can do the same thing with any number of other weapons, firearms included unless their opposition happens to be a serious -- serious -- combatant. Who cares that Joe Blow can kill Mall Cop Guy with one shot using a monowhip? He could do the same thing with a gun and likely any other melee weapon he chooses to use, because Mall Cop Guy is just a minor obstacle.
The monofilament whip is and always has been the equalizer for the troll melee specialist in a system that has always had a crappy melee weapon game mechanic. Now Joe Blow with Strength 2 can do comparable damage to Jim Bob Troll and his claymore of doom.
The major point of contention is that he can't understand why the whip is so feared. The problem is he's forgetting something, we aren't comparing the whip to a gun. We are talking about a whip to another melee weapon. I'm not saying that the whip is the end all be all of weapons. A gun at range will beat a melee weapon anyday. But that's not what is in debate.
Actually, that's the entire debate. Something is only "overpowered" if it's actually overpowered. There's plenty of counters and equals to a monofilament whip out there.
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Your right, absolutely, I concede. Your inability to understand that the choices of "drek roadblocks that was used to spice up the game," was specifically to prove how an underpowered character can do major damage with a weapon that is rightly "feared" in the game. I am considering this matter closed. Hopefully you will see the error of your ways when someone plays a character in your game that uses said weapon and demolishes any sembalance of tension or drama that you have tried tirelessly to put into the story. Debate over.
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Got a question for you. When you see -2 ap you don't see a change in hits? It take's -3 dice to take away an average of 1 net hit?
I kind of see it as a limiting factor of the possible number of hits a person does. (I usually don't go by averages because my rolls really never match averages. Most of my rolls come out above average.) Not saying it's going to kill ya but it does take out possible hits which is always a plus. XD
My next question not to feed the fire or anything, did you just say it allowed someone to do the same damage of a melee troll without having to spend all that stuff beefing up a melee? What I got out of what you said was "Joe Nobody" could do the same damage as "Trollisorious Rex."
Which means the weapon in anyone's hand is deadly, and that doesn't make it over powered when anyone can use it to deadly effect?
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Your right, absolutely, I concede. Your inability to understand that the choices of "drek roadblocks that was used to spice up the game," was specifically to prove how an underpowered character can do major damage with a weapon that is rightly "feared" in the game. I am considering this matter closed. Hopefully you will see the error of your ways when someone plays a character in your game that uses said weapon and demolishes any sembalance of tension or drama that you have tried tirelessly to put into the story. Debate over.
<shrugs>
You're the one who seems to have trouble understanding the point. Someone with a monofilament whip is no more overpowered than someone of equal stats with an Ingram Smartgun, a strong troll with a claymore, a mage with an overcast stunbolt, or any other comparable weapon/attack in the game. It only looks overpowered when compared to the crappy, underpowered stats other melee weapons have courtesy of the silly STR/2 mechanic.
When you see -2 ap you don't see a change in hits? It take's -3 dice to take away an average of 1 net hit?
I kind of see it as a limiting factor of the possible number of hits a person does. (I usually don't go by averages because my rolls really never match averages. Most of my rolls come out above average.) Not saying it's going to kill ya but it does take out possible hits which is always a plus. XD
I see a potential for it, but nothing guaranteed on average. +1 DV >= -3 AP in my eyes. Which is why I brought it up in the first place. The difference between AP -2 and AP -4 is pretty feeble compared to DV +1. It loses even more value when you add unarmored opponents to the equation.
My next question not to feed the fire or anything, did you just say it allowed someone to do the same damage of a melee troll without having to spend all that stuff beefing up a melee? What I got out of what you said was "Joe Nobody" could do the same damage as "Trollisorious Rex."
I'm not exactly the world's greatest wordsmith, but my intent was indeed the former. Just like a shotgun is equal in damage output whether you have a Strength of 1 or 9, so too is the monofilament whip. And it's there specifically to let players keep up with those troll monstrosities in a game where those troll monstrosities don't really fit in but can't be removed because they're a core concept of the game. The big difference between the two is that "Trollisorious Rex" has more options available in producing similar results, including access to weapons with more interesting stats and legality issues.
Which means the weapon in anyone's hand is deadly, and that doesn't make it over powered when anyone can use it to deadly effect?
Pretty much.
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K. Just wanted to make sure I read that right.
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"Dice pool 6. Reach 2. trading dice gets you two hits."
Wrong. Buying hits is 4-1, not 3-1. That is just the average roll.
"Dodge pool 6. So 1 to dodge."
4 dice remain, so 1.3 dodge.
"Urban explorer armor. Now Urban explorer is 6/6, effectively 6/2 against the whip. That means he has a total of 5 dice for a soak roll. That still leaves 4P that will get through."
Except that it is 1.6 soaked. the final damage averages at 8 by all of the above.
"At 13 you are dead, no ifs ands or buts."
I laughed. Average joe can take 10 plus three Over and be alive. The 14th is a kill. Cyberarms add more health, too.
Anyway, the whip's biggest advantage IS the AP, folks. -3 AP is > than (NOT =) 1 DV, as it also helps negate Physical to stun rules of armor.
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"Dice pool 6. Reach 2. trading dice gets you two hits."
Wrong. Buying hits is 4-1, not 3-1. That is just the average roll.
"Dodge pool 6. So 1 to dodge."
4 dice remain, so 1.3 dodge.
"Urban explorer armor. Now Urban explorer is 6/6, effectively 6/2 against the whip. That means he has a total of 5 dice for a soak roll. That still leaves 4P that will get through."
Except that it is 1.6 soaked. the final damage averages at 8 by all of the above.
"At 13 you are dead, no ifs ands or buts."
I laughed. Average joe can take 10 plus three Over and be alive. The 14th is a kill. Cyberarms add more health, too.
Anyway, the whip's biggest advantage IS the AP, folks. -3 AP is > than (NOT =) 1 DV, as it also helps negate Physical to stun rules of armor.
Hey I actually didn't even think about that!
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Anyway, the whip's biggest advantage IS the AP, folks. -3 AP is > than (NOT =) 1 DV, as it also helps negate Physical to stun rules of armor.
Which it doesn't always do, and it's just as likely not to count in full when going up against lightly armored opponents.
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"Dice pool 6. Reach 2. trading dice gets you two hits."
Wrong. Buying hits is 4-1, not 3-1. That is just the average roll.
"Dodge pool 6. So 1 to dodge."
4 dice remain, so 1.3 dodge.
"Urban explorer armor. Now Urban explorer is 6/6, effectively 6/2 against the whip. That means he has a total of 5 dice for a soak roll. That still leaves 4P that will get through."
Except that it is 1.6 soaked. the final damage averages at 8 by all of the above.
"At 13 you are dead, no ifs ands or buts."
I laughed. Average joe can take 10 plus three Over and be alive. The 14th is a kill. Cyberarms add more health, too.
Anyway, the whip's biggest advantage IS the AP, folks. -3 AP is > than (NOT =) 1 DV, as it also helps negate Physical to stun rules of armor.
Reach gives extra dice if they are within the reach of the weapon. So if Average knife guy goes against Average whip guy, it's plus two. So dice pool is 8. When figuring dodge the pool was 6 and I gave it one hit. As for the urban explorer explorer armor, 6/2 is what I said. Add that to body 3 makes 5 dice. Adding hits to the damage as per rules, one net hit, 9P, assuming all the dice hit (giving the defender every advantage to prove the strength of the weapon) still let 4P through. As forthe 13 count health call, the guy is on the ground, probably with a limb off, how hard do you think it will be to coup de grace him? I didn't add cyberlimbs into the equation, mainly because average joe doesn't get cyberlimbs unless he's been injured horribly. Even the grunts in the books don't realy have cyberlimbs.
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And cybernetics are so 2050s anyhow. :P
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And cybernetics are so 2050s anyhow. :P
Hey Mason is currently running a converted 2050 game. That's where Spyder is. Been debating on wether I should give him a whip. He does have cyber limbs though.
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:'(
I wanna play in the '50s. I missed out on so much...
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:'(
I wanna play in the '50s. I missed out on so much...
Maybe we'll get a Shadowrun: Retro Edition? :P
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:'(
I wanna play in the '50s. I missed out on so much...
I hear ya. I am enjoying it. But my wife also runs a 2072 campaign alternating missions.
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Reach gives extra dice if they are within the reach of the weapon. So if Average knife guy goes against Average whip guy, it's plus two. So dice pool is 8.
It applies to either the foe's dodge or to your own pool. either way, 2 dice advantage averages out to 0.6 DV.
When figuring dodge the pool was 6 and I gave it one hit.
Except that 6 dice is ~2 hits.
As for the urban explorer explorer armor, 6/2 is what I said. Add that to body 3 makes 5 dice.
Which is what I said, too. That 5 dice is 1.6 hits.
Adding hits to the damage as per rules, one net hit, 9P, assuming all the dice hit (giving the defender every advantage to prove the strength of the weapon) still let 4P through.
When you take a complete average situation and then assume outstanding luck in one aspect, you don't get the average result. The average result of 5 dice is 1.6 successes.
As for the 13 count health call, the guy is on the ground, probably with a limb off, how hard do you think it will be to coup de grace him? I didn't add cyberlimbs into the equation, mainly because average Joe doesn't get cyberlimbs unless he's been injured horribly. Even the grunts in the books don't really have cyberlimbs.
Yes, but he isn't DEAD. His chummer has 9 seconds to save him, which is possible if you get shot in the back of the head and his chummer rushes to him with a high class first aid kit. It isn't average, but neither is 13P in this scenario. Luck always changes the averages.
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On the dodge roll, the dice pool is 6. Trading dice, at a 4 to one ratio as mentioned in the rules, it's only one hit. At 8 dice it becomes 2 hits.
And for the soak roll, I wanted to show how bad the damage was, so I gave the highest possibe hits. Which would be 5. It's not always going to be the case, but it does show how vicious it is.
Yeah, the extra point does mean life or death. I concede that point. I am undercutting the survivability of the victim.
The reason I didn't use the actual averages, was because the rules give an easy out. The 4-1 rule. Besides, it makes even numbers, and makes it easier to work the numbers in this case.
Yes, I will admit the 13P in't likely to happen, neither is the 4P. But it will be in between the 2. Using the average damage would be between 6 and 7. Still two hits at that would be just as bad if not worse.
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You will find that the rolled averages matter more than the traded hits, as people do not trade hits on a dice pool of 8 when someone is slicing them at them with a monowhip.
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This is true, but along those same lines, the guy dodging would probably use edge on either the dodge or soak roll. It was skewed, but I was skewing it evenly so that it would be a fair representation.
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This is true, but along those same lines, the guy dodging would probably use edge on either the dodge or soak roll. It was skewed, but I was skewing it evenly so that it would be a fair representation.
I was using ONLY averages, without extraneous modifiers, but I shall agree to disagree.
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I wasn't really disagreeing. I was just explaining my numbers. Since using averages leaves decimals, and decimals aren't useable for the rules. Hence the way I worked the problem. Averages are great for when you work out for yourself. But remember there are outliers in every population. Sometimes there is going to be a lot of 6s sometimes there will be a lot of 1s. That's why I just went with the standard ratio. Yes it's skewed. I understand that. I agree. I was just giving even footing.
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I wasn't really disagreeing. I was just explaining my numbers. Since using averages leaves decimals, and decimals aren't useable for the rules. Hence the way I worked the problem. Averages are great for when you work out for yourself. But remember there are outliers in every population. Sometimes there is going to be a lot of 6s sometimes there will be a lot of 1s. That's why I just went with the standard ratio. Yes it's skewed. I understand that. I agree. I was just giving even footing.
The lazy answer is to round all decimals up, if you do it to both sides, you preserve enough balance and still get numbers that are more representative of actual die rolls (and you can wave off the people who are insisting on average numbers a lot more easily).
Also, since the comparison to Troll with Claymore has come up a few times, how come no one has pointed to the BP cost of Troll with Claymore vs Human with Monowhip. After all, doesn't cost of build factor into whether or not something is more powerful? Of course, none of that argument resolves the "no more effective than a gun with good ammo" argument of over-all in-game power. The troll, though more versatile, costs 97 BP more than a human with a monowhip (assuming maxed strength, agility, weapon with specialization for the troll and max agility, weapon skill for human). That's 97 BP the human can go invest in things that make him more powerful outside of melee combat (or further improving his melee combat with martial arts maneuvers and various things that let him get a bigger die pool). For that 97 extra BP, Troll gets an extra die on the attack, an extra point of reach, and an extra point of DV.
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Minor interruption, but shouldn't the modification to the urban explorer armor be 2/6? It's P, so it checks against ballistic armor, and it's 8+hits vs 6-4. Isn't it?
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Ballistic armor is basically used against bullets, Impact armor against everything else. The ballistic or impact armor is not linked to the Physical vs Stun damage type.
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I wasn't really disagreeing. I was just explaining my numbers. Since using averages leaves decimals, and decimals aren't useable for the rules. Hence the way I worked the problem. Averages are great for when you work out for yourself. But remember there are outliers in every population. Sometimes there is going to be a lot of 6s sometimes there will be a lot of 1s. That's why I just went with the standard ratio. Yes it's skewed. I understand that. I agree. I was just giving even footing.
The lazy answer is to round all decimals up, if you do it to both sides, you preserve enough balance and still get numbers that are more representative of actual die rolls (and you can wave off the people who are insisting on average numbers a lot more easily).
Also, since the comparison to Troll with Claymore has come up a few times, how come no one has pointed to the BP cost of Troll with Claymore vs Human with Monowhip. After all, doesn't cost of build factor into whether or not something is more powerful? Of course, none of that argument resolves the "no more effective than a gun with good ammo" argument of over-all in-game power. The troll, though more versatile, costs 97 BP more than a human with a monowhip (assuming maxed strength, agility, weapon with specialization for the troll and max agility, weapon skill for human). That's 97 BP the human can go invest in things that make him more powerful outside of melee combat (or further improving his melee combat with martial arts maneuvers and various things that let him get a bigger die pool). For that 97 extra BP, Troll gets an extra die on the attack, an extra point of reach, and an extra point of DV.
This is precisely what I was thinking.
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I was never arguing against that.
There are plenty of ways to go about achieving a certain outcome that's easier one way than it is another. You see it all the time, especially in powergaming discussions. Take adepts for instance. Most people here will and do tell others to grab a bit of bioware instead of "wasting" their points on Improved Physical Attribute. Ditto for a magician taking Increase Reflexes over Wired Reflexes. That doesn't make those alternative options worthless or overpowered; they're simply options that work better for some concepts than they do others. The monofilament whip is simply an extreme example of that. And, again, this is largely due to the fact that the other melee weapons have shitty stats rather than the monowhip being uberpowerful compared to other options in the game such as firearms or combat spells.
Personally, I always thought melee weapons should have a more static value and a user's Strength should influence armor penetration instead. An average person can pick up a knife and wave it around and be considered a genuine threat, on par to someone waving a pistol around. In Shadowrun, that's simply not the case. Even if they do manage to hit you with it, it's going to be a mild scratch at worse, while the gun remains potentially dangerous. And that's where the real problem lies.
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I was never arguing against that.
There are plenty of ways to go about achieving a certain outcome that's easier one way than it is another. You see it all the time, especially in powergaming discussions. Take adepts for instance. Most people here will and do tell others to grab a bit of bioware instead of "wasting" their points on Improved Physical Attribute. Ditto for a magician taking Increase Reflexes over Wired Reflexes. That doesn't make those alternative options worthless or overpowered; they're simply options that work better for some concepts than they do others. The monofilament whip is simply an extreme example of that. And, again, this is largely due to the fact that the other melee weapons have shitty stats rather than the monowhip being uberpowerful compared to other options in the game such as firearms or combat spells.
Personally, I always thought melee weapons should have a more static value and a user's Strength should influence armor penetration instead. An average person can pick up a knife and wave it around and be considered a genuine threat, on par to someone waving a pistol around. In Shadowrun, that's simply not the case. Even if they do manage to hit you with it, it's going to be a mild scratch at worse, while the gun remains potentially dangerous. And that's where the real problem lies.
1 or 2DV is still somebody hurting. It's hardly a scratch. It's like getting stabbed in your arm. Sure you probably won't die from it but it's going to hurt. Though your way of thinking about it is an interesting one as well the strength affecting penatration. What would happen when you take into account the Monofiliment weapons that are inately sharper than the rest however?
I think our defination of Overpowered is probably the difference in oppinion here. For me it's anything that allows someone to have an advantage over another person with little effort on their part. (there's a few sentances added onto it because that definition you could say a gun does that but i'm sure you get my point.) Fact is there's always something to compare something to make it look not over powered. Sure a Stunbolt might be overpowered as well, but comparing it to SnS or a Monofiliment whip doesn't make it any different in terms of Overpowered ness. Quite frankly in all games there usually is a few things that are more powerful than others. I don't think they should be banned from the table or anything like that myself. Just know that if you exploit it, that It can be exploited back.
*shrugs* that's just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it. (heh reminds me of take a penny leave a penny)
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The problem I'm seeing is, he asked for a reason why everyone is afraid of the whip. I have given argument as to why, he didn't like my arguement. He mentioned that the whip isn't any stronger than any other Reach 2 Weapon. I explained why. Again he didn't like my arguement. I used deliberatly underpowered attacker and defender. Now the defender was given incredible luck and incredibly bad luck for both examples. Instead of reading the arguement, he attacked my choice of underpowered characters to demonstrate he lethality of the weapon. I never compared the monofilament whip to a firearm. That wasn't the point. It was against other melee weapons. In the end I ended up trashing my rep arguing with someone that had made up his mind and was unwilling to see the viewpoint of others.
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Eh, who cares about Rep here? Look at Fastjack! He is awesome and epic, but he has a LOT of negative Rep. Also, since you can click the Rep buttin once an hour here, every time someone returns to the forum and dislikes something you said he can down your rep again, so it can drop really fast.
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Wear it like a badge of honor? you contributed something of contraversy! xD