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[SR6] IC and Spiders

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Finstersang

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« Reply #15 on: <05-06-20/1500:27> »
Another note: there's no restriction to having only 1 spider....
True that! the previous edition even talked about a "...special kind of rigger, the security spider..." that "...slave their RCC to the building’s host and connect to the entire security system, including all of its slaved drones..." but also that the the "...spider-rigger is often teamed up with a spider-decker to help against hacking intrusions on the security system".

The 'Spider' (as in corporate hacker), using a cyberdeck, protecting the integrity of the host.
The 'Security Spider' (as in corporate rigger), using a RCC slaved to the host, protecting the physical facility.
Both working from inside the same host (= direct connection to all the slaved drones).

Note: Not too big a fan of that last point here, at least in part. I recreates that weird situation from 5th Edition where all host are magical clouds in the Matrix with perfect Noise canceling capabilities. If the host has a kind of physical backbone and isnīt just "everywhere" in the Matrix (and Iīd say that this is the default for most "security" hosts, not the other way around), then it should matter to some degree how far the Patroling Drones steer of the perimeter.   

But to my main point: Technically, Spiders donīt need either a Deck or an RCC to protect the host to some degree. As long as they stay inside, they can always use the host attributes for themselfes and lend their Mental Attributes to the hostīs defense Tests. In that regard (and thatīs a key function of Spiders in the new Matrix rules!), thereīs a huge overlap between a "Decker-style" Spider, a "Rigger-style" Spider or even just a "Dude with a Commlink that knows a bit about Matrix security"-Style Spider. Having a RCC, Control Rig, Deck, Cyberjack and/or Resonance just adds more options, physically or in the Matrix. RCCs and Control Riggs helps you to better coordinate Drones to hunt for intruders, while Decks/Jacks/Resonance allow you to leave the host and hunt them down in the Matrix (Which might be necissary quite often, since some hostile Actions donīt require insider Acces).

Which brings me to the question: Where does a Spider (of any kind) have to "sit" in relation to a host to protect it?

Figure a nested host like this:

Outside Matrix ===== A ("lobby") ===== B ("security") ===== C ("root") ===== McGuffin

There may be other hosts nested in this structure, I just fokus on these 3. The "lobby" is easily accessible for outsiders - maybe even without any actual hacking through some entry level social engineering. Then thereīs the "security" host: Thatīs the nest of the Spider, and itīs also where most of the physical security devices are slaved to so that the spider can monitor them.  "root" is some ultra-secure insiders-only data host. Thatīs where the runīs McGuffin can be found. Which hosts (and other things, like the McGuffin) can now now actually be considered "protected" by the Spider?

The current Matrix rules are still "malleable" in that regard, so right now, itīs basically "Whatever the GM feels like is working best." As a GM, I have a strong preference here: As long as the Spider sits in host B, he can only buff the protection of Host B and the direct "children" of it. Or, basically, all the Firewalls that he can immediately "see" in the Matrix from his current position - and explicitly not the whole System.

Why so? Because it makes things more interesting.

Letīs say that our Hacker (marked with an H) has already penetrated the outer layer and infiltrated A. The Hecker also has figured out that thereīs a high-level Spider (marked with an X) sitting in Host B. (Tipp: Picture the nested hosts as 3 nested circles instead, with the Spider sitting in middle layer. The lines of the circles are the Firewalls of the different hosts. The Spider protects just the adjacent firewalls.)

Outside Matrix ==== A ("lobby") ==H== B ("security") ==X== C ("root") ==== McGuffin

That would make hacking B more difficult, but also hacking into C to retrieve the McGuffin. With that double protection, the Hacker figures that this would be to risky. So, time for a little diversion : The decker calls in a favour from a local Matrix Gang (or compiles a Sprite etc.) to cause some ruckus from the outside: Vandalism, Dataspiking low-priority devices, harassing customers - just enough for the Spider to emerge from B to kick some ass.

Outside Matrix ==X== A ("lobby") ==H== B ("security") ==== C ("root") ==== McGuffin

That would leave B and C more vulnerable, which might be just the Edge advantage the Hacker needs. Besides that, this handling also creates an ingame explanation on why hosts are not just layers after layers after layers of firewalls to stall hackers. The more layers, the more spiders are needed to protect them all.
« Last Edit: <05-06-20/1503:48> by Finstersang »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #16 on: <05-06-20/1508:00> »
Yeah, I see no reason to presume anything other than "the spider is only lending his stats to the host he's currently inside, and those devices networked to that host".  However, when a site has nested architecture with multiple hosts, it'd make sense they have multiple spiders as well.  Maybe enough spiders to put one in every host 24/7. Maybe more.  Maybe less.  Probably less, if you have a complex host architecture.... but the point is spiders (just like any other matrix user) can move around from host to host.  if trouble erupts in one host, spiders certainly can come-a-runnin' from other hosts to respond.  I wouldnt' figure IC can do this though, as the lore always said they ran natively on the hosts themselves.

But this simple idea of host architecture brings us kind of full circle back to the fun (bad?) old days of 1e decking where you had a dungeon-like map of nodes that only connected to certain other nodes.  They're just called hosts, now!  Corp sec can (and arguably should) build choke points and DMZs in their architectures.  Presumably if they do so, they can trust other hosts to operate without needing a spider INSIDE 24/7, and that in turn incentivizes deckers to leave the van and physically join the penetration for direct connections beyond those architecture choke points...
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #17 on: <05-06-20/1542:45> »
Note: Not too big a fan of that last point here, at least in part.
If it wasn't clear enough - that was just a reference to how it used to work in SR5. I fully acknowledge that it work differently in this edition.



Where does a Spider (of any kind) have to "sit" in relation to a host to protect it?
When it comes to a physical on premises host that is running inside a facility, designed to protect the facility, the spider (and all drones slaved to the host) is most likely also physically located inside the facility somewhere (if the host have a spider that is).

When it comes to a global virtual matrix host the spider can probably be physically located anywhere in the world.



Which hosts (and other things, like the McGuffin) can now now actually be considered "protected" by the Spider?
Unmonitored hosts roll zero dice instead of mental attributes. Monitored hosts benefit from mental attributes of whoever is monitoring it. Different spiders can monitor different hosts.

Question is if the spider need to actually be inside the host in order for the Host to be considered monitored
...or can several hosts be considered monitored by a single spider at the same time even if the spider is not actually inside the host.



...and that in turn incentivizes deckers to leave the van and physically join the penetration for direct connections beyond those architecture choke points...
+1

Finstersang

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« Reply #18 on: <05-06-20/1719:05> »
Which hosts (and other things, like the McGuffin) can now now actually be considered "protected" by the Spider?
Unmonitored hosts roll zero dice instead of mental attributes. Monitored hosts benefit from mental attributes of whoever is monitoring it. Different spiders can monitor different hosts.

Thatīs my point here, Iīm talking about the "virtual location" of the Spider in the Matrix and the ramifications of it. If the spider can sit just anywhere in the matrix to defend a host with his mental Attributes
  • having multiple spiders isnīt going to make a big difference for the corps (besides redundancy)
  • Smart tactics like luring the Spider out of a host wouldnīt work either.

Thatīs why I think that it would make more sense if the Spider is, f.i. restricted to the host heīs currently in and its direct "children" (f.i. Files, slaved devices, other hosts). Or, if heīs in the outside Matrix to hunt for troublemakers, just the outermost host. This works better if you donīt picture nested hosts as a network of connected nodes and more like a different layers of (fire)walls nested inside each other. The Spider can monitor these walls to look for intruders and backdoors, but only those that he can see because of his current virtual location in the matrix topology.

But this simple idea of host architecture brings us kind of full circle back to the fun (bad?) old days of 1e decking where you had a dungeon-like map of nodes that only connected to certain other nodes.  They're just called hosts, now!  Corp sec can (and arguably should) build choke points and DMZs in their architectures.  Presumably if they do so, they can trust other hosts to operate without needing a spider INSIDE 24/7, and that in turn incentivizes deckers to leave the van and physically join the penetration for direct connections beyond those architecture choke points...

It has the potencial to become sour if host nesting is used to just "stall" hacker PC and force more and more dice rolls. Thatīs not good GMing, though. Hosts should be designed to challenge hackers and, most importantly, offer rewards for clever thinking: Finding physical (or metahuman?  :P) weakpoints to access deeper layers, distracting the security spiders...
« Last Edit: <05-06-20/1722:19> by Finstersang »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #19 on: <05-06-20/1722:39> »
Quote
But this simple idea of host architecture brings us kind of full circle back to the fun (bad?) old days of 1e decking where you had a dungeon-like map of nodes that only connected to certain other nodes.  They're just called hosts, now!  Corp sec can (and arguably should) build choke points and DMZs in their architectures.  Presumably if they do so, they can trust other hosts to operate without needing a spider INSIDE 24/7, and that in turn incentivizes deckers to leave the van and physically join the penetration for direct connections beyond those architecture choke points...

It has the potencial to become sour if host nesting is used to just "stall" hacker PC and force more and more dice rolls. Thatīs not good GMing, though. Hosts should be designed to challenge hackers and, most importantly, offer rewards for clever thinking: Finding physical (or metahuman?  :P) weakpoints to access deeper layers, distracting the security spiders...

Sure, there's always the possibility of something being overdone.  Or maliciously done.  Like the GM saying the "only" way to get to the research lab is to get through half a dozen checkpoints.  I mean, it's absolutely possible a site might be constructed in such a way.  While there's a pact between GM and players that the GM shouldn't be malicious, there's simultaneously no part of that social pact that says the GM has to make things EASY for you just because you're the protagonists.  You might have to penetrate layer after layer of physical security.  Now that nested architecture is a thing, that possibility also exists in the matrix, as well.


Would you make a team fight/pick their way through 6 doors to get to the macguffin?  You might, if they were really good at fighting/picking locks.  You probably wouldn't though, if they'll be challenged by one.  Same thing for matrix.  If your hacker(s) make quick work of hosts, then you can challenge them by making them do it more than once to get to the digital macguffin.
« Last Edit: <05-06-20/1725:12> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Bishop75

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« Reply #20 on: <05-13-20/2026:54> »
I haven't seen any discussion on what happens when the decker is detected by a Patrol IC. The description of Patrol IC says..

"When it is activated, make a Matrix Perception roll for the Patrol IC; that serves as hits on Matrix Perception actions it takes every in-game minute it is active."

Great, Ok, then what? It's detected the persona which it presumably thinks is a legit admin / user? Or does it automatically see through that and raise an alarm?

Then there is the example on page 188 which says: "While doing so, the Patrol IC rolls the host Device Rating of 4
x 2 and gets a surprising 8 hits. (so far makes sense) This more than beats Mungo’s Sleaze rating of 4 and adds 8 to his Overwatch Score."

WTF? The rule and the example seem to bear no resemblance to one another at all. IF I read the rule correctly, OS score is meant to go up when the decker takes illegal actions. Matrix perception is legal, so my understanding is that it would have no impact on OS. Am I missing something here?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #21 on: <05-13-20/2126:16> »
I haven't seen any discussion on what happens when the decker is detected by a Patrol IC. The description of Patrol IC says..

"When it is activated, make a Matrix Perception roll for the Patrol IC; that serves as hits on Matrix Perception actions it takes every in-game minute it is active."

Great, Ok, then what? It's detected the persona which it presumably thinks is a legit admin / user? Or does it automatically see through that and raise an alarm?

GM discretion.  Although, for simplicity's sake, it's probably best to assume the IC realizes the runner is in fact NOT a legit user on a successful perception test.  But YMMV, especially in unique circumstances.

Quote
Then there is the example on page 188 which says: "While doing so, the Patrol IC rolls the host Device Rating of 4
x 2 and gets a surprising 8 hits. (so far makes sense) This more than beats Mungo’s Sleaze rating of 4 and adds 8 to his Overwatch Score."

WTF? The rule and the example seem to bear no resemblance to one another at all. IF I read the rule correctly, OS score is meant to go up when the decker takes illegal actions. Matrix perception is legal, so my understanding is that it would have no impact on OS. Am I missing something here?

Yes, adding to the OS is referring to some rules that were cut prior to publication and this (and a few other) supporting examples regarding OS still haven't been corrected.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Bishop75

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« Reply #22 on: <05-13-20/2332:54> »
Thanks for the quick response.

That make sense.