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Astral Perception

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Rosa

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« Reply #15 on: <05-05-18/2224:18> »
The abundance of life in the first 10 meters of water from the surface in the oceans will give you a -2 dice pool modifier to assensing tests,  in warm water it's -4 due to the extra abundance of micro organisms ( run and gun pg 158 ). I would say that's a good indicator that you can use other auras and Astral forms to aid in hiding astrally.

Overbyte

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« Reply #16 on: <05-05-18/2324:12> »
The abundance of life in the first 10 meters of water from the surface in the oceans will give you a -2 dice pool modifier to assensing tests,  in warm water it's -4 due to the extra abundance of micro organisms ( run and gun pg 158 ). I would say that's a good indicator that you can use other auras and Astral forms to aid in hiding astrally.

Fair point. Although there are micro-organisms everywhere in the ocean (and only give a -2), whereas the air is pretty much devoid of life.
But I could see in special circumstances it could work, like trying to spot an aura standing right behind an astral form.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

Rosa

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« Reply #17 on: <05-06-18/0859:33> »
Mana barriers, another astral form, also obscures astral perception,  so does background count. They may not say it directly but I think it's fairly clear that that's the intention.

At our table we have always used it so. For example large crowds or an abundance of plant life will directly aid you in hiding astrally.

Redwulfe

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« Reply #18 on: <05-06-18/2318:06> »
The Sneaking skill "allows you to remain inconspicuous in various situations." This incluedes walking quietly against being heard or moving in such a way as to not draw attention to yourself. Since non-astral forms don't seem to be translucent but only "appear as faded semblances of their physical selves; grey, lifeless, and intangible." I don't see why you can't use Sneaking to be undetected by astral perceiving characters, or hide in astral. An Astral form is not visible through walls and such. So if you can physically hide form physical sight why can't you hide from astral ones? It even implies that you can hide against astral perception on pg. 313- "You only need to roll the dice when your target is trying to hide or when you’re trying to observe in detail—then you make an Assensing Test to see what you can see." It even says you use Assensing to see what you can see. Which to me implies that you would use Assensing for perception tests in the astral.
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Xenon

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« Reply #19 on: <05-07-18/0123:25> »
Since non-astral forms don't seem to be translucent but only "appear as faded semblances of their physical selves; grey, lifeless, and intangible."

Just want to add that what you just described was non-living mundane entities.

Non-living mundane entities that have strong emotions attached to it by an individual or metahumanity as large like a lost teddy bear, a love letter or a mass grave might be described as colorful.

Living physical forms such as a metahuman that don’t use astral perception, an animal or a plant are often described as intangible, shadowy reflections of the physical form that is both colorful and bright, illuminating the surroundings.

And astral forms such as a spirit, a dual natured metahuman and an active focus are often described as solid and tangible as well as much brighter and colorful than living auras.

Having said that, Astral Perception is a psychic sense which mean that while some astral beings  “see” auras as different colors and lights another astral being might rather “feel” different textures or “smell” different flavors.

Can you hide in the Astral? For sure. You just need to do it in another way. It’s more about blending in with other living auras, hide behind a bright and colorful astral form or fully get behind mundane cover. Hiding in the shadows in the corner of a badly lit room work on the physical plane but doesn’t work against astral perception since your aura would be obvious to spot as it lit up the otherwise gray and lifeless mundane room.

Redwulfe

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« Reply #20 on: <05-07-18/1035:00> »
This is one of those times I wish I could just +1 a post. :)

I think getting a description of what a person is doing is a good habit to get into before any roll. If they are trying to hide in a corner in the open I would say "I don't think you could hide your aura by standing in the open, would you like to hide in another way?" I tell them that ahead of time so they can adjust their actions, I'm not out to screw over a player, nor do I think anyone here is either.

I like to have the group work together to weave a better story. I do this for almost every situation I ask my players to actually role-play with me a bit to get con or negotiation rolls or describe what/how they are doing something before they get a skill test. I do have some players that get nervous in socially situations and for them I allow them to interpret dice, but that is a corner case most of the time. To me having the descriptions brings the world to life in the minds of those at the table and makes it more than just, what if feel is mechanically reading the results of a skill test by looking at the dice. It also gives me, as a GM, more information to go on as I narrate the results to the table.
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Wu Jen

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« Reply #21 on: <05-24-20/0855:50> »
In the matrix you use Matrix Perception which is resolved with Computer + Intuition [Data Processing]

In the astral you use Astral Perception which is resolved with Assenssing + Intuition [Astral]

In the physical world you use [Physical] Perception which is resolved with Perception + Intuition [Mental]


if someone is trying to hide from an astral perciever
SR5 p. 312 Astral Perception
Like physical perception, you don’t need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easy to spot). You only need to roll the dice when your target is trying to hide

An adept or magician that use Astral Perception cannot also use [Physical] Perception at the same time. You can either only sense the astral plane with intangible gray shadows and auras in different colors around you or use your eyes to actually "see" the physical plane for what it really is. You can't do both at the same time (the only exception to this are Naturally Dual Natured Critters). It take a simple action to switch between the two.

Most modifiers applicable to using eyes to "see" in the physical plane (such as darkness or smoke etc) doesn't really apply once you close your eyes and switch to astral perception...

Astral Perception page 312. This ability is called astral perception. It is a primary sense used in the astral plane that allows you to "see" auras and other things in the astral world overlaid on the material plane.

You are seeing both the astral plane and the material plane at the same time, hence the -2 penalty to actions on the physical plane. Astral is overlaid on the material.


Xenon

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« Reply #22 on: <05-25-20/0450:52> »
Please don't necro threads that are two years old.


When you use your physical perception then things on the physical plane look solid and have actual tangible forms. You see (with your actual eyes) visual light (such as color and contrast).

When you switch from your physical perception to your astral perception you no longer 'see' the physical plane. Instead you 'sense' the astral plane. While using astral perception doesn't matter if you have perfect 20/20 vision or if your are blind (or if you close your eyes) on the physical plane. While astral is often explained as 'seeing' (because the metaphor works and because it is easier for most of us to understand) astral perception is a psychic 6th sense, different from your other 5 senses:
Quote from: SR4 p. 191 Astral Perception
It takes a Simple Action to shift one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time, though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the astral, albeit without detail).
Quote from: SR4 p. 191 Astral Perception
Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive the astral plane and the creatures and auras within. Likewise, deaf magicians can “hear” in astral space.
Quote from: SR5 p. 281 Spellcasting Step 2: Choose the Target
you’re not technically seeing them, but the analogy works
Quote from: SR5 p. 312 Astral Perception
Technically, astral perception isn’t vision—you don’t need working eyes to see in the astral plane—but vision is the easiest metaphor to use.
Quote from: SG p. 28 Astral Topography
Astral perception is a psychic sense, so where I see and hear light and sound, others may interact more through taste or texture. Your experience in the astral very much depends on who you are.
Quote from: RF p. 153 Blind
Since astral sight is not a truly visual sense, Awakened characters who are blind can still use astral perception all the time and at least have some sense of objects in the world, but gamemasters should apply the customary –2 dice pool modifier to all actions performed on the physical plane while perceiving the astral, including indirect combat spells, and keep in mind the differences between the astral and physical worlds.
Quote from: SR5 p. 395 Critter Powers - Dual Natured
Being dual natured, though, is different from astral perception in that a dual-natured critter always senses both the physical and astral worlds; they don’t have to shift back and forth (and, in fact, cannot do so).


The book describe the astral plane like this:
Quote from: SR5 p. 312 The Astral World
It is an emotionally charged photonegative of the physical world where only living things and things infused with mana are real and physical objects are mere intangible shadows.
Quote from: SR5 p. 312 The Astral World
The general aura of that life illuminates the astral world at all times with an ambient glow. Things that exist only on the material plane can be seen and heard from the astral, but they are blurred and muted as the emotional context of people and things registers more than physical properties of light and sound (in many ways they are a substitution for those properties).
Quote from: SR5 p. 313 Astral Perception
Objects that are neither magical nor living do not have an aura; they are featureless grey shadows of their physical form.
Quote from: SG p. 28 Astral Topography
Life illuminates and emotions color a grey and shadowy mirror of the physical world. When astral projecting, you do not hear the din of the physical world, nor can you read written words. Technological displays and holographic images don’t exist even as shadows on the astral plane. All the lifeless objects in the physical world appear as dull and intangible shadows to astral forms, allowing them to easily pass through. Details on these objects (color, texture, smell) are almost impossible to understand; a book’s words are impossible to read, as is the context of the writing unless it’s tied to some emotion that the character can perceive. All life has intangible auras that illuminate the astral world, while emotions can color them. Emotions can also color non-living objects if they have some significance to metahumanity (individually or as a whole). Within the silence, the magician can hear the crackle and hiss of mana being drawn into a spell or the subtle harmonies or cacophony of aspected mana as it flows through the astral plane.

When you look at a room with your regular perception you could for example see a red bench with two people. You see a yellow desk and you see a green poster on the wall with some white text that you can read. Spotlights in the ceiling lit up the room. If you close your eyes everything goes dark.

When you switch from your physical perception to your astral perception, while still keeping your eyes closed. You 'sense' (which is different from 'seeing') the walls, the bench and the desk, but they appear to be intangible colorless shadows of their former self - you get the feeling that you could walk straight through them (and if you were projection you actually could). You almost can't distinguish the poster on the wall from the wall itself and the color, contrast and text is no longer there. Everything is lifeless and colorless, except for the two living subjects on the bench. While they too are just represented by intangible blurred shadows they are full of emotions and they also have an 'aura' full of life which make them quite obvious compared to their lifeless mundane surrounding.

Now you open your eyes on the material plane, while still using astral perception. And nothing changes. At all. You are still using astral perception instead of your regular perception. You still can't read the poster. You still can't see the color of the bench. You still can't see the bright light from the spotlights in the ceiling (instead the room still appear to be 'lit up' by the two living subjects on the bench).

You can navigate through the room or even bring up your gun and aim at one of the subjects on the bench, but since you are using astral perception instead of physical perception you will take a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice (due to the disorientation). It would also not matter if someone would turn off the spotlights in the ceiling (or if someone blindfolded you). While the room would turn into total darkness on the material plane which would cause a negative dice pool modifier of 6 dice (Blind Fire) for anyone using their regular perception, you would not even notice that the room turned dark and you would still 'only' have a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice from using your astral perception.
« Last Edit: <05-25-20/0533:35> by Xenon »

Wu Jen

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« Reply #23 on: <05-25-20/1112:00> »
So nothing in 5e onwards by RAW state that you cannot see both. Its basically up to the game master to determine how he/she/it determine it to be.

Thanks!

Xenon

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« Reply #24 on: <05-25-20/1428:43> »
Only dual natured critters get to both see the physical plane and sense the astral plane at the same time. A magician using astral perception need to shift back and forth.

Quote from: SR5 p. 395 Critter Powers - Dual Natured

Being dual natured, though, is different from astral perception in that a dual-natured critter always senses both the physical and astral worlds; they don’t have to shift back and forth (and, in fact, cannot do so).


Having said that, you are free to rule that astral perception let you view both at the same time just like dual natured critters and you are also free to rule that mundane objects don't appear as blurred, featureless grey shadows of their physical form, if you like. It's your table. Your rules.

Just don't try to sell it as RAI or RAW ;-)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #25 on: <05-25-20/1453:41> »
For what it's worth, 6we does dispense with the arcane distinction between astral perception and dual natured.  In that edition, they ARE finally exactly the same thing.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #26 on: <05-25-20/1522:22> »
I need to read the rules in 6th edition to be 100%, but I am pretty sure that dual natured critters still observe both the astral plane and the physical plane at the same time while magician have to spend a minor action to shift between physical perception and astral perception and then another minor action to shift back into physical perception from using astral perception.... ... that there is still no difference between using astral perception while not projecting and using astral perception while projecting...  and that objects still appear as blurred, featureless grey shadows of their physical form while using astral perception.

Having said that, while RAI seem to be identical to the previous edition in a majority of cases, almost all written rules in SR6 have become much more ambiguous and a lot more open for interpretation (if you ask me skipping all the clarifying text was the biggest drawback of cutting the word count, but some might also see this as an advantage as it gives GMs more freedom in how they want to shape the rules at their table).

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #27 on: <05-25-20/1536:29> »
In 6we, while you're astrally perceiving you become dual natured.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #28 on: <05-25-20/1544:43> »
And...?

(you become dual natured while using astral perception in 5th edition as well; which mean you have both a tangible physical body and a tangible astral body at the same time - doesn't automatically mean you can use your physical perception and your astral perception at the same time....... it doesn't automatically mean that that astral perception is suddenly just something you activate and deactivate rather than switching to and from)

I'll go read through 6th edition rules on the matter before replying more in this thread, but I doubt there will be new rules that conflict with how it worked in earlier editions. If anything they probably just cut out a bunch of clarifying text to make the rules more open ended, ambiguous and open for interpretation (without actually changing any rules).
« Last Edit: <05-25-20/1549:05> by Xenon »