[kirk]

I'm requesting help building skeletons for new users. That is, the minimum build points that must be in your build. Not the things that make it better at the class, just the raw minimums. I'm going to give an example using the only class in which I feel competent: the technomancer.

Assumed meta: Human
Positive Quality: Technomancer (5 BP)
Choose a stream if using Unwired
Softcap (usually 5) in your fading attribute. If just using the basic book this is Willpower. (40 BP)
Resonance (6). (65 BP)
Logic 3 if it isn't your fading attribute. (20 BP)
Complex forms: Analyze (6), Command (6), Exploit (6), Spoof (6), Stealth (6). (30 BP)
Skills pass 1: Hacking and Gunnery get 10 rating points between them, either 6/4 or 5/5, depending on whether you intend to emphasize hacking, rigging, or balanced. (40 BP)
Skills pass 2, all the following at rating 4: Electronics Group, Compile, Register. (72 BP)
Total 272 BP.

Now why is this a skeleton? First it should be obvious from the attributes -- except for the three mentioned, everything's at 1.  There are qualities (such as Paragon) that will make the TM better. There's no discussion of gear. Useful skills like perception, weapon, dodge, unarmed combat, and all that are missing.

I'll also point out that an experienced player can shortchange some of what I listed and create interesting and fun characters -- but they're intentionally being a bit "less" than the 'standard' TM.

In another message in this thread I'm going to post my current understanding of the skeleton for the mage. I've been studying the class trying to understand it and I think I've got a handle. But I also suspect I might be wrong, so I'd appreciate feedback. I'd also like to see skeletons for other classes.

What I plan to do is make these another tool on googledocs for players, similar to what was done by UmaroVI with the archetypes. It will be something a new player or a player unfamiliar with the class can grab and then build upon. Example: Technomancer Skeleton.

[kirk]

Using the same outline, the generic mage as I understand it. Corrections invited and welcomed.

Assuming human metatype.

Positive Quality: Magician (15 BP)
Chose a Tradition (determine Drain attribute).
Softcap Drain attribute (40BP).
Softcap Willpower (40 BP).
Hardcap Magic (65 BP)
High Skills: 10 rating points (6/4 or 5/5) between Spellcasting and Counterspelling. (40 BP)
Additional Skills: Summoning (4), Binding (4), Assensing (4), Ritual Magic (2) (56 BP)
Spells: Heal, Levitate, one combat [choose from stunball, stunbolt, powerball, powerbolt], nine other spells of your choice. (36 BP)

Total to this point: 292 BP.

Have I over-required? forgotten something? Comments?

[Makki]

i would never ever hardcap an attribute. Not magic, not resonance. It makes me feel like going to the car dealer and paying 20% more than the list price of the car.

the mage is very very generic. most flavor builds focus on spellcasting or summoning

[kirk]

i would never ever hardcap an attribute. Not magic, not resonance. It makes me feel like going to the car dealer and paying 20% more than the list price of the car.

the mage is very very generic. most flavor builds focus on spellcasting or summoning

The mage is meant to be generic at this point -it's a skeleton. That said, should the high-rate skills be summoning and spellcasting instead of counterspelling, or should it be a third ("choose two of these three" sort of thing)?

I can't speak for hardcapping magic as I've not enough experience, but the difference for resonance has been significant when I don't because of the limits resonance imposes.

[kirk]

Forgot Increase Reflexes. Decided to take Makki's advice for Magic and reduce it to softcap. That puts the skeleton at 261. Work in progress: Mage Skeleton.

[Typath]

Wow this is a great idea. I can see this being very helpful to new players (like myself). Cutting all of the unnecessary fat for certain character types can help newbies understand what is essential. Even without soft or hard capping attributes and skills, just knowing the important ones is helpful. This game with its many options for character types can make this a long processes. Look at the Adept alone, you could make a melee, range or social character with all those adept powers. With that in mind. Are you trying to build skeleton versions of archetypes like those found in the core book. Or are you working on Quality point classes like the TM and Mage characters you created? Because I would love to see a Mystic Adept that leans to the physical side. Sense I'm trying to build one for my first Shadowrun game. I know, I had to pick one of the hardest characters to build in the game.

[Mason]

Hmm. This seems to work pretty well. I don't know that i will need to use them, though. I'll point some of my newer players to this thread, though.

[kirk]

@Typath, I'm not sure how it'll work out.

One thing I've already noticed is that some "roles", even though thought of as primary, are really secondary. Example: face. A mage/face is different from a CCface is different from a cyber-adept face is...  IF I get the underlying skeletons done I might take a shot at that sort of addition.

@Mason, the newer player is exactly the target audience, whether new to SR or new to that character type.

[Typath]

Yeah I see what you mean. Maybe when you're done with the primary roles, you can create a template for those secondary roles that can be added to the skeletons? Give them a points cap so as not the break the bank. Perhaps with essential option in skills, qualities, and even wares. This is just me, but I would make this templates skeletons also. Example: A B&E type would need the Infiltration and Hardware skills, but not necessary their respected groups. Just a thought so new players can pick a skeleton slap on a template and fill in the rest with the remaining points.

[kirk]

Yeah I see what you mean. Maybe when you're done with the primary roles, you can create a template for those secondary roles that can be added to the skeletons? Give them a points cap so as not the break the bank. Perhaps with essential option in skills, qualities, and even wares. This is just me, but I would make this templates skeletons also. Example: A B&E type would need the Infiltration and Hardware skills, but not necessary their respected groups. Just a thought so new players can pick a skeleton slap on a template and fill in the rest with the remaining points.

At which point it's recreating the PACKS system.

I still might, but let's see how far I get on just the skeletons.

[Ryo]

Considering this is meant to be a tool for newbie players who don't know how to build properly, I think all the skeletons should have the essential skills EVERYONE should always have at least one rank in, like Perception, Etiquette, and at least one Combat skill. If not, then construct an 'Essential Skills' skeleton, which you would then add to the base archetype skeleton before adding your own customizations.

[Typath]

I never noticed the Pacts system in this forum before. Thanks for pointing that out.

[kirk]

Considering this is meant to be a tool for newbie players who don't know how to build properly, I think all the skeletons should have the essential skills EVERYONE should always have at least one rank in, like Perception, Etiquette, and at least one Combat skill. If not, then construct an 'Essential Skills' skeleton, which you would then add to the base archetype skeleton before adding your own customizations.

First, I'm not convinced it's necessary to have a rank in perception and etiquette given both have a default point. For that matter, I think a combat spell takes care of the mage's combat skill.

However, I do see your point. That said, I'm not sure those are skeleton level skills. They're very important and almost always necessary, like Paragons and Mentor Spirits. But they're skills to add to muscle up and flesh out the character.

[Zephraim]

Do (non-rigger) Technomancers really need minimum 4 in Gunnery? With threaded Command CF that seems like a lot of points that could be used for other things.

[kirk]

Do (non-rigger) Technomancers really need minimum 4 in Gunnery? With threaded Command CF that seems like a lot of points that could be used for other things.

Good question. There are two primary reasons I think the answer is "yes".
1) The SR4 nature of the matrix is such that riggers are hackers and vice versa. Not taking gunnery is the same as not taking hacking because you're "just going to rig". Which leads to 2:
2) The sheer amount of points required to be a TM makes anything other than Hacking and Rigging a second-tier skill. By tier, I mean 20-15-10 for approximate dice pools. Primary skills should get 20+ dice. Secondaries, which you do when there isn't someone for whom it's primary, are 15 or so dice. 10 dice are for the times when you're forced to do "this".

In my opinion a TM without gunnery is intentionally not having an expected skill. The character can be fun and playable but it's doing so by working around the handicap.

(Having reviewed that answer, I'm now wondering if the TM should have at least one Pilot [vehicle] (1) skill. Probably.)