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What do those Attributes mean?

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SoulGambit

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« Reply #15 on: <06-26-15/1247:26> »
The issue with Attributes, specifically with how Shadowrun does things (specifically the need for multiple hits to accomplish most tasks), is that the Shadowrun system relies on emergant narrative. The system itself isn't meant to present a strong narrative, but that it is instead intended to present a compelling series of challenges within an interesting context/setting with the assumption that a strong drama will naturally emerge in those conditions. This is a perfectly valid design philosophy, though Shadowrun is, in my mind, a case study for why most of the challenge needs to be moved from character building decisions to discreet in-play decisions. As it stands, the more optimized character will usually "win" and since the goal of Shadowrun is, at the end of the day, to "win" a Run as a team (it isn't, but there is a great pressure to be able to do that) you will find character with more optimization than normal. No one wants to drag the party down, and in Shadowrun that matters considerably more than most games.

Anyways, to address the OP. Practically speaking, what does it mean? At the table? Hush up and play. The character you play is the character you play and no one's going to tell you it's wrong so long as everyone is having fun. The worst you'll get is someone ragging on your 1 LOG character for coming up with epic plans or your CHA 1 character getting all the chicks. If the ST or yourself happen to remember the character stat at 1 they may use it for hilarity or to drive the narrative. If no one remembers, then no one remembers. At the end of the day you gotta finish runs and you're all there to eat chips, drink mountain dew, throw dice at imaginary security guards and have a good time.

Within the context of the setting? A lot of different things. Attributes practically represent transferable ability. That is, baseline skills that apply in a variety of fields. A mathamatics genius could be a math genius because he has Logic 6 or because he has Logic 1 and a skill related to Mathamatics and/or Test Taking at 4. Both hypothetical characters are equally good at Mathamatics and both would be branded a "genius" by any institution measuring IQ by those means would produce the same result. The difference is that the first character has a much broader range of transferable skills while the second is more specialized. Someone who is meet and shy but good at dinner parties might have CHA 1 and Ettiquet 6. They're bad at getting other people to do what they want, but they are great at standing their ground saving face, and are someone you want to have at a party.

I could go on and on, but I'll leave it at this. Characters should be judge holistically by their skills, attributes and qualities, not piecemeal.

adzling

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« Reply #16 on: <06-26-15/1251:43> »
As long as you RP your dump stats I'm cool with it.

What I will not tolerate is a 1 logic character coming up with involved and detailed workable plans.

Or a Cha 1 character trying to play on being pretty/ handsome or trying to play on their charm (well they can but it will end up bad).

You choose your strengths and weaknesses and you better play both ;-)

Reaver

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« Reply #17 on: <06-26-15/1257:01> »
I agree with you in theory Gambit, but some player's choices leave a lot to be desired.

And while there is no rules against it, there is something inherently wrong with a character with a Logic of 1, and the Logic skills at a signifigantly higher rating. Now admittedly a logic skill focused character should NOT have a poor logic attribute, i have still seen it done. (And gritted my teeth over it)
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #18 on: <06-26-15/1327:33> »
Two things

First, and I say this a lot, the mechanics are not a perfect verisimililar simulation nor are they intended to be. IRL conceptually it is nigh impossible to separate some stats, especially the mental stats. It's best not to think of things too much. It's hard to say IRL how good someone is at shooting because they just have good muscle tone versus practice and someone can easily just be a natural at shooting without formal training, or you naturally suck but you've been drilled so much you're great at it now. The likelihood of someone with high BOD not also having high STR is low. What the game calls INT is a portion of mental function that would be used IRL to actually calculate IQ. It's all intertwined IRL. This is not what the game is trying to perfectly replicate.

Second, there are people with low average to average Full IQ scores who nevertheless become very learned and proficient in certain skills. Having a lower IQ in no way means you can't be a quantum engineer. It may lower the likelihood but it's not impossible. So having say low LOG and high skills is perfectly feasible AND verisimililar in that regard.

I am probably fine with a character not coming up with brilliant plans but I would never tell a player to dumb it down OOC. Being low LOG doesn't mean you can't think tactically. If anything Small Unit Tactice being tied to INT and not LOG speaks volumes about this.
Playability > verisimilitude.

RacoonSF

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« Reply #19 on: <06-26-15/1336:41> »
As long as you RP your dump stats I'm cool with it.

What I will not tolerate is a 1 logic character coming up with involved and detailed workable plans.

Or a Cha 1 character trying to play on being pretty/ handsome or trying to play on their charm (well they can but it will end up bad).

You choose your strengths and weaknesses and you better play both ;-)

That's one way to do it.
But it has some drawbacks in my opinion. Let's say you have some Logic-1 or 2- Troll, whose player simply has a lot of interesting and useful ideas. Or the player tends to think tactical while his character is some face with no clue of tactics.

What should a GM do if this happens? You might hint that the character probably would not follow up to the idea he just had or even have the player throw dice if the character likes his own plan. But I would not forbid him to explain a good (or bad) idea because the creative problem solving is a main part of the game for me. And if Troll has the best ideas: so be it.
I also let the player discuss the action of a single player even if they are not physically present or if they are otherwise occupied (generelly speaking, there might be exceptions if the narrative demands it) . It adds to the fun - and they have commlinks anyway.

Logic can come into play in other forms imO. A lot of skills depend on Logic. An if the players are stuck somewhere I sometimes let them roll on Logic or Intuition to drop hints.

Of course if a player is out-of-character most time (a character with "uncouth" or "vindictive" having all the peaceful solutions or if they follow some moral codex I would intervene and perhaps suggest to work at the character or the way it is played.

But that's just the way I do it. It all depends on the GM and players and what gives them the most fun.


zarzak

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« Reply #20 on: <06-26-15/1408:52> »
For attributes most people have a good understanding of what the 'middle of the bell curve' means.  3 is average, 2 is a little below average, 4 is a little above average.

5 is very strong/fast/smart/whatever, and is also easy to understand.

I feel that the 'extremes' (1 and 6) are misinterpreted more often, though.

Conceptually they are easy to understand.  1 means at the bottom of the bell curve, 6 means at the top.  That gives you a lot of room to RP.  6 Would be an olympic athlete, or an Einstein (or that might be a 7, potentially).  1 would be the weak kid in gym class who couldn't do a single pushup, or the slow kid in class.

Its important to remember, though, that these extremes don't equate to exceptional characteristics.

Just because you have a 1 in charisma doesn't mean you are always horrid in social situations.  There is a specific negative quality for that.  Just because you have a 6-7 in logic doesn't mean you remember/solve everything instantly; there is a specific positive quality for that.

I see this in a lot of posts especially with regards to 1's in things.  For some reason there seems to be the impression that a 1 in logic means you're mentally impaired - it does not.  That would fall under a negative quality.

Remember: 1-6 represents the range of attributes a normal person might be expected to have (with 7 being a special exception).

Of course specific metatypes play around with this a bit, but we're talking about humans here. :)

adzling

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« Reply #21 on: <06-26-15/1622:08> »
So at our table if you are a player who tends towards complicated, involved, detailed and good ideas and you want to take advantage of that during play I would sit them down and explain that RPing a 1 or 2 logic character is going to be a millstone around your neck.

I would encourage them to make the character they actually want to play, a troll with logic higher than 1 or 2.

On the other hand there are plenty of players who are more passive, do not often come up with such complicated, devious, multipart plans and if they want to have a toon with a 1 or 2 logic thats cool as it better fits their actual in game RP.
It can also work if the player is more into bang-bang and not subtlety.

I also let players roll logic, intuition etc checks to get clues or prompts that the player might not have picked up on or have any way of knowing. This is helpful in reinforcing their character's competency or lack thereof.

All of the above does not mean the character is retarded or mentally challenged by having a logic of 1, and it doesn't mean I forbid them from contributing good ideas to the group.

Rather they will not be developing the kind of complicated, devious, multi-part plans that many runs call for.

I have observed over the years that many people just ignore a character's poor mental stats and let people play as they see fit.
To me that's a cop-out at best and metagaming at worst.
Now understand I am NOT saying any of the posters here fit that bill, I don't know you or your table and don't presume to.
I am telling you what I have seen in person while playing with other folks.

Bottom line: I encourage (and sometimes demand) that players RP their character as it's built, including their strengths and weaknesses.

As long as you RP your dump stats I'm cool with it.

What I will not tolerate is a 1 logic character coming up with involved and detailed workable plans.

Or a Cha 1 character trying to play on being pretty/ handsome or trying to play on their charm (well they can but it will end up bad).

You choose your strengths and weaknesses and you better play both ;-)

That's one way to do it.
But it has some drawbacks in my opinion. Let's say you have some Logic-1 or 2- Troll, whose player simply has a lot of interesting and useful ideas. Or the player tends to think tactical while his character is some face with no clue of tactics.

What should a GM do if this happens? You might hint that the character probably would not follow up to the idea he just had or even have the player throw dice if the character likes his own plan. But I would not forbid him to explain a good (or bad) idea because the creative problem solving is a main part of the game for me. And if Troll has the best ideas: so be it.
I also let the player discuss the action of a single player even if they are not physically present or if they are otherwise occupied (generelly speaking, there might be exceptions if the narrative demands it) . It adds to the fun - and they have commlinks anyway.

Logic can come into play in other forms imO. A lot of skills depend on Logic. An if the players are stuck somewhere I sometimes let them roll on Logic or Intuition to drop hints.

Of course if a player is out-of-character most time (a character with "uncouth" or "vindictive" having all the peaceful solutions or if they follow some moral codex I would intervene and perhaps suggest to work at the character or the way it is played.

But that's just the way I do it. It all depends on the GM and players and what gives them the most fun.

Overbyte

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« Reply #22 on: <06-26-15/1639:00> »
I agree with you Adzling.. it is very difficult for most players to play dumber (or less clever) than they are, and impossible for them to play smarter then they are. The latter can be aided by the GM, but the former is entirely up to the player.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

Reaver

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« Reply #23 on: <06-26-15/1728:47> »
End of the day, This is something that has to be table agreed on. And each table is going to have a different view. I am in Adzling's Boat. If you put it down on your character, I expect you to play to it. And if that means you have a CHA 1 and no social skills, expect to fail. Every time.

Now, I know my players and look over their character for "crap and stuff" like this and point it out to them before game play starts so they can make an informed decision, but once they have been informed... yep, failing to social rolls will always happen until the character invests some karma to improve their social graces.

And really, there is no reason why you would ever have to have a character with a 1 in any attribute (unless for RP reasons). except for the fact that you chose to do so, so live with your choice.

Choosing to dump stat something, then getting huffy about a GM insistence on you living with your CHOICE is very much the reason I bring a 2x4 with me.

I am playing a game to have fun with a group of people I (hopefully) enjoy spending time with. If you are going to ruin that with your antics.... start running cause I'll be swinging that chunk of wood!!
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Hobbes

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« Reply #24 on: <06-26-15/2002:45> »
"What do these Attributes mean?"

They are usually 1/2 of the calculation for dice pools on skill checks.  Attributes are also used to calculate most meaningful combat stats, move, dodge, soak, initiative.  Attributes are also used to calculate many of the mechanical secondary characteristics used in the game such as limits, composure, memory and the like.  Attributes are used to calculate the base line of a Technomancers living persona and are used to calculate a mages Astral attributes.  There are some aspects of character generation that use Attributes, mainly Knowledge skills and Contacts.

Anything else is table rules.  You do what you want at your table but Shadowrun 5th edition is the most difficult game I've played to take a concept rattling around in my head and get the numbers on the piece of paper in front of me to have an in game performance that reflects the concept in my head.  i.e. this is a game with a very high system mastery requirement for character generation.  Adding random and arbitrary Attribute taxes seems unnecessarily punitive since the game has several built right in.  Intuition, Reaction, Agility, Body, Willpower... you don't see those as dump stats or if you do, someone comes along and points out the mechanical importance of those stats.  Strength, Logic, Charisma have slightly less severe mechanical penalties, but they're there.  Knowledge skill points and Contacts at Chargen.  Armor Encumbrance and recoil.  As well as being the stat for some very commonly checked skills. 


Hobbes

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« Reply #25 on: <06-26-15/2009:22> »
As long as you RP your dump stats I'm cool with it.

What I will not tolerate is a 1 logic character coming up with involved and detailed workable plans.

Or a Cha 1 character trying to play on being pretty/ handsome or trying to play on their charm (well they can but it will end up bad).

You choose your strengths and weaknesses and you better play both ;-)

So my Samurai that spent a couple tours in the CAS Marines (1rst Marine Reconnaissance Battalion OOH-RAH!!) with a 1 Cha, 1 Logic, 5 Int and 5 in Small Unit Tactics shouldn't be able to coordinate multiple fire teams in a complex maneuver?  Because the rules say otherwise.  In fact the rules say that character is actually quite good at it.   RPwise it kinda flows too IMO.  YMMV. 

I wonder if anyone else has mentioned that the one planning skill in the game is Intuition based, not Logic.  Seems like that might have come up....

adzling

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« Reply #26 on: <06-26-15/2012:20> »
i would be cool with him being competent in planning combat maneuvers that weren't that out of the box or highly unorthodox.

executing the maneuvers in R&G? Absolutely, thats what training is for.

that's a whole world of difference from multi-part, complicated and nuanced run planning involving multi-variate strategies beyond bang bang.

but then i wouldn't permit a character with two dump stats of 1 at my table.

so yeah, ymmv.
« Last Edit: <06-26-15/2013:59> by adzling »

Senko

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« Reply #27 on: <06-26-15/2015:13> »
@Zarzak
That I think is the main problem here to you the 1-6 represents the bell curve range of a normal person whereas to me it represents the full range of what a person can be i.e. a 7 is quite simply the maximum any person can be without magical or technological aid. It doesn't matter who you are or how much you train you will NEVER find a human with an 8 in strength who isn't using some form of augment it simply can never happen. Of course this could put a virutal 0 for the minimum a person can be but still that means a 1 needs to be defined as to how much above a zero and what a zero actually means. Its one thing i liked about the Cthulu d20 game it didn't define its attributes in terms of strong/weak it had a nice table with all the attributes defined in terms of what they actually meant in the "real world" e.g. for strength you had . . .

Value   MOD Meaning
-           -       Incorporeal Spirit
1         -5     Shan
2-3      -4     Rat Thign
4-5      -3     A child
6-7      -2     An elderly person
8-9      -1     A weak person
10-11   0     An average person
12-13  +1   A fit person
14-15  +2   A strong person
16-17  +3   A weightlifter
18-19  +4   An olympic ahtlete
20-21  +5   Ape
30-31  +10 Dark young of Shub Niggoruth
42-43  +16 Dhole
44-45  +17 Shoggoth

So you'd know in real world terms what your stat acutally meant in that system if you had a 12 you were fit, if you had an 18 you were an olympic athlete if you had a 3 a child could beat you up.

@Reaver & Adzling
The problem with that is while you have people like me who'd prefer to play that way e.g. 2-3 minimum in a stat and with the 2 explained in character to achieve it in most games (not sure about yours) you either have to have a very high attributes or build a character that isn't considered "viable" by most people on these boards. Lets say I was making a mage I'd have to have C+ in attributes. To get my drain stats at 6/5 a C means I'd be looking at something like . . .

Body: 3
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2
Strength: 2
Willpower: 5
Logic: 2
Intuition: 2
Charisma: 6

If I want to get int/agi at 3 I wind up with 2 other stats str/log at 1 giving me a character that's viableish but not one I really want to play. On the other hand if I put attributes at B I can then have only one stat at 2, most of the others at 3 and my drain stats at 4/5 but I start losing out elsewhere either skills or metatype depending on if its a straight priority or sum to 10. I don't want to play a character with dump stats but if I'm playing priority mage and want decent skiils its either 5 stats at 2 or 2+ at 1.

EDIT
Or having a GM who doesn't mind your character starting with a less than fully optimized character who may not have a 6 starting stat or may have spent skill points on flavour choices like basic swimming and computer training for their mage.
« Last Edit: <06-26-15/2017:17> by Senko »

Hobbes

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« Reply #28 on: <06-26-15/2018:40> »
End of the day, This is something that has to be table agreed on. And each table is going to have a different view. I am in Adzling's Boat. If you put it down on your character, I expect you to play to it. And if that means you have a CHA 1 and no social skills, expect to fail. Every time.

And my very simple expectation as a player is that if my character has to make a skill check of some kind, every other character at the table has to make the same check for the same thing.  And my expectation as someone who knows a tiny bit about this game and probability is that any character who isn't a face will fail Social checks if they can't buy hits or edge.  Ditto for hacking checks and non-hackers.  *shrug*

adzling

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« Reply #29 on: <06-26-15/2021:46> »
Senko you don't need those prime stats at 6, 5 is fine.
at my table taking a single stat at 1 is fair game.
if you want the uber stats you must invest.

Hobbes actually at our table our part time face with a Cha of 4 gets along quite fine most often.