[Taejix]

I feel you're missing the problem.

If all you do with Qi Foci is buy one at force 4 and that's it, the end, you're losing a ton of versatility and you're tying one of your more important powers to something that can get shut off.  That's the issue.

If you have a Force 4 Qi Focus for Improved Reflexes you already have level 2 Improved Reflexes (IE as good as the chromed street sam has) as one of your powers. Loosing one level if it gets shut off isn't the end of the world.

There's also the issue that you're probably only turning on your Improved Reflexes focus for combat. You're hardly likely to need your utility foci during a fight (and if an edge case requiring it comes up you can just risk the addiction and activate both).

Also, as ZeConster pointed out you can't bond more than your magic rating in foci. This means six foci in most cases. If I buy four different powers for 0.25PP each I'm still using up four foci, whereas if I take the minor odds and ends using my PP and have level 3 Improved Reflexes in a focus I'm only using up one of my potential foci.

[Aranador]

Personally, I would rather that any ability that I want available instantly the moment the GM yells out "Suddenly - ambush" was bought with power points.  So for me, Qi Foci for Increased Reflexes is a no go.

I feel that Qi Foci are better for any power where you look at a problem, and say "just gimme a few seconds" before tacking it.  When bullets are flying, I don't want to take those few seconds getting ready

[ProfessorCirno]

I feel you're missing the problem.

If all you do with Qi Foci is buy one at force 4 and that's it, the end, you're losing a ton of versatility and you're tying one of your more important powers to something that can get shut off.  That's the issue.

If you have a Force 4 Qi Focus for Improved Reflexes you already have level 2 Improved Reflexes (IE as good as the chromed street sam has) as one of your powers. Loosing one level if it gets shut off isn't the end of the world.

There's also the issue that you're probably only turning on your Improved Reflexes focus for combat. You're hardly likely to need your utility foci during a fight (and if an edge case requiring it comes up you can just risk the addiction and activate both).

Also, as ZeConster pointed out you can't bond more than your magic rating in foci. This means six foci in most cases. If I buy four different powers for 0.25PP each I'm still using up four foci, whereas if I take the minor odds and ends using my PP and have level 3 Improved Reflexes in a focus I'm only using up one of my potential foci.

I dunno about you, but my GM doesn't let me go "Hold on, let me change foci before rolling my initiative."

Initiative is something you want BEFORE bad stuff goes down.

And I'd rather have 6 foci to switch between then 5.  It's +1!  It's mathematically better 

Again, it comes down to usefulness.  Light Body is more or less my go-to for qi-foci powers; you won't use it all the time and likely not in split second moments, but when you DO need to use it, it's good to have.  And you can shove all power 6 of it on that power 4 qi focus (leaving room for a weapon focus for those sword adepts out there).

[PunkxRonin]

So what's the consensus about augments and Adepts in 5e?

Things like Bone Lacing for added Body and unarmed damage worth the loss of essence? How about Muscle Toner/Augmentation? Or some thing Adept Powers can't (currently) do like Platelet Factories for boosted damage resistance?

Also could one in theory make a qi-focus out of bone lacing (or any cyberware really) and then have it implanted and utilized by an adept? I seem to recall that being possible in 4e, and haven't read anything to the contrary in 5e.

[Taejix]

Some augmentations, particularly attribute boosters, are still completely worth it.

The problem is that affording them at chargen on an adept usually means dumping either your skills or attributes. Later on it's totally a good place to put your excess nuyen once you've got the gear you need.

[Aranador]

It is as simple as working out how much essence vrs how many power points a given upgrade would be.

Muscle toner at .2 essence per rank is waaaay better than buying agility with power points, for example.

[ProfessorCirno]

You can likely go without augments if you're focused on shooting.

If you want to melee, you need augments.  Melee, it's no contest - chrome beats adept every single time.

[PunkxRonin]

You can likely go without augments if you're focused on shooting.

If you want to melee, you need augments.  Melee, it's no contest - chrome beats adept every single time.

could you elaborate please?

[Csjarrat]

You can likely go without augments if you're focused on shooting.

If you want to melee, you need augments.  Melee, it's no contest - chrome beats adept every single time.

depends on weapon choices i think. stuff like monofilament or shock gloves don't really care how strong you are, but a punching adept really benefits from a bit of hardware

[ProfessorCirno]

You can likely go without augments if you're focused on shooting.

If you want to melee, you need augments.  Melee, it's no contest - chrome beats adept every single time.

could you elaborate please?

This is assuming you aren't going shock gloves, shock stick, mono-whip, or chainsaw.

The big differences between the two:
Sammies have permanent stat boosts for affordable prices, higher armor/soak, and higher versatility.
Adepts have potential temporary stat boosts through Boost ____ as a simple (and you'll usually score 2 hits on average), higher initiative, higher dodge, and better specialization.

For a ranged character those are roughly about even.  The adept will probably go first and has a higher chance to not get hit at all, the sammy is far better at stuff outside of combat and can take those hits and continue going.  This is because guns (and the aforementioned weapons) do a set amount of damage unchanged by your stats.

Melee weapons DON'T do a set amount of damage though; they are, by and large, Strength+X.  In addition, melee attacks are complex actions, not simple.  This means the sammy suddenly LEAPS ahead.  The ability to boost your agility as a simple action works when you can then pew pew pew as your second simple, but with a melee weapon, boosting agility means no attacking that turn, which is a major loss.  On top of that, Boost Strength does not increase your melee damage.  So right off the bat, the sammy is either attacking before you, or they've got equal chance to hit since you can't activate your buff, removing your specialization bonus.  Then you actually hit, and the gulf widens; the sammy can add +3 to their strength no problem, while the adept at best adds +1 from Critical Strike.  To add insult to injury, this is assuming a weapon; if you're going unarmed, the sammy can either have NEW BONES or a cyberweapon of some sort to boost their unarmed strength, whereas adepts get nothing of the sort.

So, if you want to go melee, using 'ware to boost your strength and agility is near mandatory, and if you're going unarmed you THEN want more 'ware to boost your unarmed damage, and you start to wonder how much easier it would've been to just go sammy from the start.

And this is really weird and dumb, because pre-SR4, adepts were the melee choice.  Now they very distinctly play second fiddle.

[PunkxRonin]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your augmented maximum applies to magical augmentation as well as chrome/bio augmentation. So boosting your strength for added damage via Qi-foci/adept powers is still going to be limited by the augmented maximum like a Chrome'd out razor-boy. So there's an inherent limit to how much you could stack strength for the purposes of dealing damage.

Adepts then get the ability to add 1 to their DV based off off Critical strike, and increase their dice pools via Improved Skill and Improved Accuracy. Finally if they're using a Weapon focus, they can add the focus rating to the attack roll?

So I'm not seeing why a melee adept isn't inherently worse then a cyber character.

A cyber character can become very deadly in melee shortly out the gate of character creation because they implant cyberware, but an Adept has a higher celing because they in theory have access to all the same "tricks" a cyber character does with melee and the additional boost of Critical Strike, Improved Accuracy and a Weapon Focus.

Also a cyber character is going to have to prioritize differently at character generation to allow for enough nuyen to afford the cyber/bio which can come at a determent to skills/attributes, some thing an Adept doesn't necessarily have to do.

[Michael Chandra]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your augmented maximum applies to magical augmentation as well as chrome/bio augmentation.

It does, but only because these magical boosts actively state they do. Any magic power that doesn't state they respect Augmented Maximum, doesn't because they're not augmentations, they're not 'ware.

[ProfessorCirno]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your augmented maximum applies to magical augmentation as well as chrome/bio augmentation. So boosting your strength for added damage via Qi-foci/adept powers is still going to be limited by the augmented maximum like a Chrome'd out razor-boy. So there's an inherent limit to how much you could stack strength for the purposes of dealing damage.

Adepts then get the ability to add 1 to their DV based off off Critical strike, and increase their dice pools via Improved Skill and Improved Accuracy. Finally if they're using a Weapon focus, they can add the focus rating to the attack roll?

So I'm not seeing why a melee adept isn't inherently worse then a cyber character.

A cyber character can become very deadly in melee shortly out the gate of character creation because they implant cyberware, but an Adept has a higher celing because they in theory have access to all the same "tricks" a cyber character does with melee and the additional boost of Critical Strike, Improved Accuracy and a Weapon Focus.

Also a cyber character is going to have to prioritize differently at character generation to allow for enough nuyen to afford the cyber/bio which can come at a determent to skills/attributes, some thing an Adept doesn't necessarily have to do.

The basic issue is that Boost Strength doesn't effect melee damage, and Boost Agility means you can't melee attack on the same turn.  Hypothetically you could raise your permanent agility and strength to equal the sammy, but doing so would cost you eight PP.  Having a very high ceiling doesn't mean much if you never reach it.  The permanent stat boosts for an adept are just too expensive to really gun for.

In my experience, Resources B works just fine, same as an Adept who goes Magic B.

[PunkxRonin]

OK here's what's going down. I need to have this character completed for next Friday as he'll be joining the group most likely I'm very tired so going to crash here shortly, and Ive got a very busy week coming up so if Any one wants to take a crack at it please, i'd appreciate it. You'll be new new best digital chummer.

Ok here's the basics. He has to be an Elf. No negotiation. He's an Elf. He's gotta be an Adept. He uses automatics as his primary skill for fighting, but I want him to be able to engage at short-range melee fights id required. Whither it's through knucks, augmentations to punch harder or any other combination it doesn't matter. This should be a tertiary concern. as Shooting/survivability is primary. He's a club junkie and a skirt chaser. Adrenaline is what keeps this guy going, so base jumping, playing music at clubs, having groupies to keep him entertained, maybe some drug habits. But some one who's living life fast and hard. High agility (for shooting and dodging) high charisma (for con/seduction) and music creation/performance. Strength so he can fight back unarmed and bring some pain. athletic so he can be into pakaour or base jumping and other crazy sports (maybe even skate boarding, or roller blade).

For some ideas here's my current character and I"d love for my new Elf to be better at things then he was (or at least more versatile) Also note my GM has green-light access to Delta grade bio/cyberware if I can afford it and there will be in- game penlites and plot I have to suffer through to take it into account.

With out further delay here's my old street sam

(no i don't remember his priorities)

Body 5 (7)
Agi 5(7)
Reaction 4( 8 )
Stregnth 3
Willpower 4
Logi 2
Intuition 4
Charisma 2
Edge 5

Essence 0.6
Magic/resonance 0
Inititve 3D6 + 12

Compusre 6
Judge Intentions 6
Memory 8
Lift/carry 8

Physical limit 7 mental 4 social 3

athletics skill group 2
-running
-swimming
-gymnastics 3 (broke it here)

Unarmed 2
Clubs 2
Exotic Melee Weapon (chain saw) 4
Perception 2
Sneaking 1
Automatics 5
Pistols 2
Long arms 3
Armorer 2
auto mechanic 1
pilot ground graft 4

I'd have to dig around to find what augs I have but you can see their effects in the attributes and their normal and (augmented) form Finally my new character will recieve 83 Karma to play with however I (or you) see fit.

TLDR: please help me make a combat monster who can tank for the party, kill any thing that threaten us preferably with automatics but also with punches. I don't mind augmentation when it's more cost effective I've got some money coming his way and GM is willing to work with me. He has 83 karma to spend beyond base gen. He's a DJ hipster in Seattle, lives life by the second. Loves fighting, sees it as an art form. fights hard parties harder. Just make him /better/ then my old guy he was nice but too boring to RP

Really I appreciate any one who can take the time to put together a toon for me. I"m running out of time and this week is going to keep me very very busy. I don't want to hold up our group because I wasn't ready.