[Reiper]

One other thing to add.

While you do bring up some valid reasons on why it may not be cheese, the type of game also matters tremendously.

If its a one off or only doing a really short campaign, then it is definitely cheese to take something like that. If it is a longer, more drawn out one, then it may slide better if I were GM, but I'd make you be really careful about losing a limb.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Going by that theory, most qualities are cheese.  In a super short campaign, you probably wouldn't have much to do with a majority of negative qualities.

[RHat]

I tend to build my characters for the long haul unless I'm told it's not gonna be a long game.  I hate having to bail out on characters early, to be honest.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

I do the same.  My characters in any game(or game system) usually start out weak due to my inability to buy stuff that is useful at first but loses feasibility later.

[Aqukie]

I just assumed that essence loss was from losing a limb, and the essence hole took care of the cost of a cyberlimb. Otherwise it seems that you would have a larger cost for many of the implants.

[UmaroVI]

Even if a character with sensitive system doesn't plan on taking cyberware, they also aren't planning on being caught in an explosion. The Shadows are a dangerous place, a lot of cyberlimbs aren't upgrades, but replacements. So I wouldn't call it cheese, in fact its highly dangerous for Awakened/Emerged characters to take sensitive system. For example, if they get a leg blown off, that's one point of essence gone right there, and if they decide to get a cyberlimb replacement, that's another point right there.

See, that's what I thought, but as I discovered in another thread regarding hit locations, you don't lose the essence for just the amputation - only once you get the cyberlimb.  Oddly.

Really? That seems kinda dumb. You wouldn't happen to be able to point me to either that thread or to where it states that in the books, would you?

The optional rules for limb damage are in Arsenal p120ff, note they don't mention essence loss. Arsenal 23 has an optional rule that references the other optional rule - Severe wounds (which is the category under which limb loss falls) cause essence loss between .1 and 1. Since essence loss for limb loss is explicitly an optional rule, and not otherwise referred to, it's not a core rule.

[Xzylvador]

IMO, it's all about a persons id or ego.
As long as it's 100% natural, he's got a clean aura and full essence. Doesn't matter if he's lost 2 limbs, an eye and had a kidney removed. Everything he is, is still pure and natural, his body still true to his id/ego.
But the moment something unnatural becomes part of his or her being, that being becomes something else, something less pure and natural and has deviated from his spiritual id/ego, which is resembled by essence loss and a visibly altered aura.

[All4BigGuns]

I suppose those in the "it's cheesy" crowd would consider the following "cheesy" for an Awakened:

Sensitive System
Sensitive Neural Structure
Weak Immune System
Low Pain Tolerance

All of those combined are a rather obvious theme of being a bit 'messed up' physically and neurologically.

[Glyph]

I suppose those in the "it's cheesy" crowd would consider the following "cheesy" for an Awakened:

Sensitive System
Sensitive Neural Structure
Weak Immune System
Low Pain Tolerance

All of those combined are a rather obvious theme of being a bit 'messed up' physically and neurologically.

I think a lot of people don't get lateral limiters.  The character's ability to utilize implants is impaired, full stop.  Unfortunately, some GMs don't think you are "paying" for the flaw unless you have cyberware.  Which is where all of the limb-lopping talk is coming from, which is about the same as GMs having characters get captured and forcibly implanted with 'ware.  Unless it is an exceptionally gritty game, I don't see either one popping up too often without a lot of GM fiat being involved.

Looking at that set of negative qualities, sensitive system is really the only lateral limiter in the bunch - the rest of them have specific, quantifiable penalties associated with them.  I don't consider it a cheesy set of negative qualities, and I think it fits an overall theme.  Contrast the combat mage archetype - sensitive system, a mild allergy, and two mild addictions - to "simsense" and "stimulants".  A lot of GMs would pitch a fit if someone made a character with those flaws.

[RHat]

Addictions are never cheesy for Awakened.  Inevitably, they'll fail a roll at some point at start spiraling down to Essence loss.

[Reiper]

I suppose those in the "it's cheesy" crowd would consider the following "cheesy" for an Awakened:

Sensitive System
Sensitive Neural Structure
Weak Immune System
Low Pain Tolerance

All of those combined are a rather obvious theme of being a bit 'messed up' physically and neurologically.

I think a lot of people don't get lateral limiters.  The character's ability to utilize implants is impaired, full stop.  Unfortunately, some GMs don't think you are "paying" for the flaw unless you have cyberware.  Which is where all of the limb-lopping talk is coming from, which is about the same as GMs having characters get captured and forcibly implanted with 'ware.  Unless it is an exceptionally gritty game, I don't see either one popping up too often without a lot of GM fiat being involved.

Looking at that set of negative qualities, sensitive system is really the only lateral limiter in the bunch - the rest of them have specific, quantifiable penalties associated with them.  I don't consider it a cheesy set of negative qualities, and I think it fits an overall theme.  Contrast the combat mage archetype - sensitive system, a mild allergy, and two mild addictions - to "simsense" and "stimulants".  A lot of GMs would pitch a fit if someone made a character with those flaws.

Allergies and additions I wouldn't consider cheese, especially for an awakened.

If there is an allergy and I was a GM, you would encounter it at least once, more than once if the enemy ever figured out your allergy. Same with a gease, if the enemy knows it then they will attempt to use that against you.

As far as additions go, I'd make sure that the rules on addition are enforced, and the more cheesy I think the character is playing the more addition rolls they'd have to roll. Basically if they RP it good and work it really well into the character, I'd be less inclined to make them roll for addition (they will would but not as often).

[All4BigGuns]

I suppose those in the "it's cheesy" crowd would consider the following "cheesy" for an Awakened:

Sensitive System
Sensitive Neural Structure
Weak Immune System
Low Pain Tolerance

All of those combined are a rather obvious theme of being a bit 'messed up' physically and neurologically.

I think a lot of people don't get lateral limiters.  The character's ability to utilize implants is impaired, full stop.  Unfortunately, some GMs don't think you are "paying" for the flaw unless you have cyberware.  Which is where all of the limb-lopping talk is coming from, which is about the same as GMs having characters get captured and forcibly implanted with 'ware.  Unless it is an exceptionally gritty game, I don't see either one popping up too often without a lot of GM fiat being involved.

Looking at that set of negative qualities, sensitive system is really the only lateral limiter in the bunch - the rest of them have specific, quantifiable penalties associated with them.  I don't consider it a cheesy set of negative qualities, and I think it fits an overall theme.  Contrast the combat mage archetype - sensitive system, a mild allergy, and two mild addictions - to "simsense" and "stimulants".  A lot of GMs would pitch a fit if someone made a character with those flaws.

I think you hit the nail on the head there Glyph.

<.<
I would put that quality list on a Combat Mage. (Probably add in SINner and get no points for it though.)
>.>

[Shadowjack]

Unfortunately, negative qualities are very exploitable. They're intended to have a detrimental effect on your character but in many cases they don't. It's up to the GM and players to make sure that everything is handled as fairly as possible. Sensitive System is debatable because it does limit your options, but if you have no plans of ever taking cyberware then it is basically free build points.

[RHat]

Unfortunately, negative qualities are very exploitable. They're intended to have a detrimental effect on your character but in many cases they don't. It's up to the GM and players to make sure that everything is handled as fairly as possible. Sensitive System is debatable because it does limit your options, but if you have no plans of ever taking cyberware then it is basically free build points.

Or, alternatively, points in exchange for your decision to never take any ware.

[Bewilderbeast]

I suppose those in the "it's cheesy" crowd would consider the following "cheesy" for an Awakened:

Sensitive System
Sensitive Neural Structure
Weak Immune System
Low Pain Tolerance

All of those combined are a rather obvious theme of being a bit 'messed up' physically and neurologically.

I think this is a perfect example of using Sensitive System correctly, even on an Awakened character. You're using your negative qualities to create a portrat of a physically frail, possibly immuno-compromised character (although weak immune system and sensitive sytem might conflict a bit... one indicates a weakened immune system, where as near as I can tell sensitive system is about an over-active immune system rejecting 'ware). So I think that's a pretty good example of using Sensitive System right.

In my case, I was building an adept with a point of Essence lost to bioware. I never intended to take cyberware, only bioware. I needed 15 BP, saw Sensitive System, and took it solely for the BP. I understand what you guys are saying about cyberware being closed off forever to this character, but since I intended to only really ever upgrade his bioware or add more Magic points for adept powers, this felt like a reeking pile of gouda to me.

And in my case, maybe it was. Cheese is subjective, I think.