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Shadowrun 4E and Earthdawn connections?

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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #15 on: <04-19-12/2021:52> »
Actually, I was more referring to the 4th world, in which the people we are discussing would have formed their morality and ethics.  Barring that, you have to go back to a culture which had both sexes as masters and students.  For the better part of history, skill sets were strongly divided between male and female roles.  Thus, sex didn't play a (strong) role.

Mirikon

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« Reply #16 on: <04-19-12/2024:50> »
When did the Immortal elves pop up? They were already well established before the Scourge, but couldn't they have been from the 2nd or 3rd world?
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Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #17 on: <04-19-12/2149:51> »
It's not the Laughing Man's style. Yeah, it would piss off Ehran, but Harlequin isn't all about sex. He strikes me, in fact, as fairly monogamous, and there haven't been many women he's really loved.

Besides, I think he and Ehran are brothers, and schtooping his niece is just gross.

That's a personal theory based on nothing but how they act toward each other. I'm from a biggish family, and to hate each other that much takes a blood relation, in my experience.
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Nycidian Grey

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« Reply #18 on: <04-22-12/0908:06> »
That's a personal theory based on nothing but how they act toward each other. I'm from a biggish family, and to hate each other that much takes a blood relation, in my experience.
Not really to have a deep emotional connection (love or hate) just generally takes knowign a great deal about someone granted in our relatively(compared to an immortal) short lifetimes this happens most often to be a blood relative when it comes to hate as you generally don't hang around people you dislike unless you are forced to by circumstances.

But in the case of these immortals even if politics didn't force them to interact, which it seems is likely to have occurred during the 5th world, it seems likely that two people that are immortal and have similar interests and originate form the same culture would, no matter how much they try to avoid interaction, be thrown together over millennium many times. This would probably happen enough that even if they started out just not quite liking each other by now they would really hate each other viscerally.

 In fact given that circumstance it is hard to see how any immortal elves would enjoy the company of each other even those that loved each other once. I imagine even small foibles after thousand upon thousands of years would go far beyond irritating.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #19 on: <04-22-12/0934:34> »
It's not the Laughing Man's style. Yeah, it would piss off Ehran, but Harlequin isn't all about sex. He strikes me, in fact, as fairly monogamous, and there haven't been many women he's really loved.
Who said anything about love?  We're talking about sex here.  Let me paint this picture for you.  Imagine if 99.99% of the people you've ever met, loved, hated, etc. were dead.  That is an elf at age 150.  Harley is like 30 times that old.  We are but pet gold fish to an immortal.

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #20 on: <04-22-12/1046:10> »
Who said anything about love?  We're talking about sex here.  Let me paint this picture for you.  Imagine if 99.99% of the people you've ever met, loved, hated, etc. were dead.  That is an elf at age 150.  Harley is like 30 times that old.  We are but pet gold fish to an immortal.
I did, and if he were having the conversation, Harlequin probably would, too. I'm fully aware of the time scale involved; it's one of the reasons, in fact, that I said what I said. Since you're being condescending today, however, and it kinda pissed me off, let me paint you a counter-picture.

You're immortal. You've done everything, tried every kink, had orgies that would make Caligula jealous. You've fucked women, you've fucked men...you've done it all. And, like so many before you, immortal and mortal both, you've made a discovery: Fucking for the sake of fucking is meaningless. Mortal or immortal, you reach a point where getting your dick wet is a chore unless there's really something in it for you. It has to matter if you're going to get it up. The older you get, the less a slave to your gonads you are.

After a while, if there's not love, it's not worth it. And Harlequin does not love Jane Foster. Matter of fact, the only person he's ever really loved has, in the very recent past, gotten herself dead. Or something; considering some of the magics involved, it's hard to say what happened to Aina. But there was, apparently, a body.

Caimbuel loved Aina; she was probably his only real friend. And they were together during Frosty's tutelage. Yeah, he could have gotten some sort of advantage over his age-old enemy by deflowering his daughter, and that could have made it worthwhile...but it would have been petty and dishonorable, which would not. It's not in his character.
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Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #21 on: <04-22-12/1106:17> »
Not really to have a deep emotional connection (love or hate) just generally takes knowign a great deal about someone granted in our relatively(compared to an immortal) short lifetimes this happens most often to be a blood relative when it comes to hate as you generally don't hang around people you dislike unless you are forced to by circumstances.
It works the same way for immortals. You don't like the person, even if you hate the person, you can avoid them. It's a big world and we're small beings; there's room to get around someone.

Harlequin and Ehran, though, went to some great lengths to keep their feud going. You gotta have a reason to do something like that, and that reason is usually blood. In my experience, limited as it is, at least.
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But in the case of these immortals even if politics didn't force them to interact, which it seems is likely to have occurred during the 5th world, it seems likely that two people that are immortal and have similar interests and originate form the same culture would, no matter how much they try to avoid interaction, be thrown together over millennium many times. This would probably happen enough that even if they started out just not quite liking each other by now they would really hate each other viscerally.
Yeah, I'm sure they'd get thrown together accidentally more than once...but the fact remains, avoiding each other, when there are so few of you, is relatively easy.

Except for the basic human (and I use the term here very generically) tendency to gravitate towards that which is familiar. Which lends itself to your point. More on this in a moment.
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In fact given that circumstance it is hard to see how any immortal elves would enjoy the company of each other even those that loved each other once. I imagine even small foibles after thousand upon thousands of years would go far beyond irritating.
As I said above, we gravitate towards that which is familiar. We seek out our own kind for companionship. And sometimes the only friend you might have handy is a mortal enemy. It's played out in history and in fiction before.

Hmmmm. Gonna have to think about this. You haven't changed my mind; I still think Harlequin and Ehran are brothers. But you have given me a bit to think about.
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CanRay

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« Reply #22 on: <04-22-12/1157:11> »
It's not the Laughing Man's style. Yeah, it would piss off Ehran, but Harlequin isn't all about sex. He strikes me, in fact, as fairly monogamous, and there haven't been many women he's really loved.
Who said anything about love?  We're talking about sex here.  Let me paint this picture for you.  Imagine if 99.99% of the people you've ever met, loved, hated, etc. were dead.  That is an elf at age 150.  Harley is like 30 times that old.  We are but pet gold fish to an immortal.
Gold fish last longer than us.

Especially in Shadowrun.
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #23 on: <04-22-12/1220:57> »
@Patrick: I wasn't being condescending, I was making it very clear to everyone, not just you, that elves and immortality makes it difficult to hold much affection for anyone.  You're point about getting your wang wet needs to expand to letting someone touch your heart when it gets to the time scale of the immortals.  Everyone dies eventually, if you live long enough. So love means getting your heart broken eventually.  I suspect that's why the immortals have so many enemies.  They get the same visceral emotional content of love but when their enemy dies, they get to rejoice rather than mourn.

An immortal showing you any attention at all is a kindness they grant upon you.  If they have sex with you, it is for your benefit, not theirs.

FastJack

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CanRay

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« Reply #25 on: <04-22-12/1603:23> »
*Blinks*  We haven't brought up the Attitude book.

...

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that kind of attitude.  Sorry.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #26 on: <04-22-12/1657:50> »
Not really to have a deep emotional connection (love or hate) just generally takes knowign a great deal about someone granted in our relatively(compared to an immortal) short lifetimes this happens most often to be a blood relative when it comes to hate as you generally don't hang around people you dislike unless you are forced to by circumstances.
It works the same way for immortals. You don't like the person, even if you hate the person, you can avoid them. It's a big world and we're small beings; there's room to get around someone.

Harlequin and Ehran, though, went to some great lengths to keep their feud going. You gotta have a reason to do something like that, and that reason is usually blood. In my experience, limited as it is, at least.
Or they could simply enjoy the rivalry at some level. Looking at Ehran and Harlequin, I can't honestly say they hate eachother. The times when they've been together (and not actively trying to kill eachother), they've acted like foils for eachother. I think that, at some level, they like the challenge of having another immortal that they can match wits against, who isn't a dragon, in realms outside of politics. It is like Georgia versus Georgia Tech in any sport (but especially football). You want to beat the rival, but it isn't a matter of hate, like with Georgia-Florida or Alabama-Auburn. This is all about bragging rights.
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snowRaven

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« Reply #27 on: <04-23-12/1456:17> »
If Harlequin had a sexual relationship with Frosty, it would likely have been between Harlequin and Harlequin's Back - judging from some of the fiction and fluff there, Harlequin was in a pretty messed up state before he started hunting horrors, and with all the delight and fun gone after the victory against Ehran, he might've stooped low enough to see if 'going at it' with Ehran's daughter could bring back some of the fun.

I'm doubtful that they are brothers - the ED stuff doesn't really seem to support it, as far as I can tell - the simple fact that they are both immortals could be enough to keep the fire going. After all, only a handful of people in the world would be able to give them any real form of stimulating interaction, so avoiding each other would be counter-intuitive even if you do hate each other. I think the confluct kept going the first few millenia mostly due to Harlequin - he seems the type who is easily bored if he doesn't have a purpose, and any purpose involving mortals would quickly (for an immortal) lose it's fun.
As I interpret it, Ehran messed up when he took Harlequin's ear off, and that pushed it from 'friendly competition' to deeper conflict. I agree with Mirikon that they certainly don't hate each other - it's more complex than that. They wouldn't've had the various sit-downs described in the fiction if they did.

Frosty's recent bitterness toward Harlequin (Street Legends Supplemental) would seem to indicate either that they were lo ers, or that she loved him at least, and that something bad happened during the Artifact business - before or after Aina's death. Possibly H rejecting Frosty, or Frosty finding out about her father, and how H had hidden that fact from her.

Regardless, I think their relationship has been complicated - for many reasons.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #28 on: <04-23-12/1924:56> »
I agree with Patrick here. As far as I'm concerned, it was totally platonic.

Regardless, I think their relationship has been complicated - for many reasons.
8)

Indeed.

Cranstonvm

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« Reply #29 on: <04-23-12/2245:28> »
Kind of related...

In the Aztlan when Dunkie and the IEs were taking about religion, Dunkie implied that he helped lessen religion's grip on humanity. I took that to mean his agents, unless dragons could be active, say like stuck in human form,  Is a dragon being active possible in the 5th age or able to communicate with agents? 
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