[Angelone]

Long story short, Aztech is a bunch of dicks, and their continued existence is why we can't have nice things.

[CanRay]

Long story short, Aztech is a bunch of dicks, and their continued existence is why we can't have nice things.

Horizon might have things to say about that as they're now king of the PR Pile...

AZT's ability to spin their horrific acts into positive situations is now numbered.  And as John & Jane Q. Wageslave wakes up to what they're really like (And what Shadowrunners have known for a long time now), they're going to find that they probably should have stayed with being a Drug Cartel Money Laundering Operation.

[CitizenJoe]

You do realize that AZT provided crops to I think the AMC and without that there would have been massive starvation.  Additionally, AZT is by far the biggest producer of optical chips.  They have done good.

[Mirikon]

No, they didn't do good. They used the fact that they had food and other people didn't to leverage a massive amount of control over a country. And optical chips? Making money for the corporation isn't 'doing good'. That's 'being a corporation'.

[CitizenJoe]

Alright, how about "They fill an important niche."  Without AZT, all your computer stuff would be much more expensive.  You probably wouldn't have those fancy commlinks either.  People in the north would have starved.  Your opinion that making money while doing good is... well, I'll stop there because it would become a massive political socioeconomic rant.

Corporations are not "Teh Evulz".  They do stuff for the bottom line because they have to answer to their stock holders.  Since stock holders just get a short notice, all they really care about is the bottom line.  If shareholders could somehow share in the sunshine and lollipops, then corporations would be more interested in being nice nice. 

[shrike]

Alright, how about "They fill an important niche."  Without AZT, all your computer stuff would be much more expensive.  You probably wouldn't have those fancy commlinks either.  People in the north would have starved.  Your opinion that making money while doing good is... well, I'll stop there because it would become a massive political socioeconomic rant.

Corporations are not "Teh Evulz".  They do stuff for the bottom line because they have to answer to their stock holders.  Since stock holders just get a short notice, all they really care about is the bottom line.  If shareholders could somehow share in the sunshine and lollipops, then corporations would be more interested in being nice nice.

We must not be reading the same books.

[CanRay]

Corporations are not "Teh Evulz".  They do stuff for the bottom line because they have to answer to their stock holders.  Since stock holders just get a short notice, all they really care about is the bottom line.  If shareholders could somehow share in the sunshine and lollipops, then corporations would be more interested in being nice nice.

All right.  Who are the stockholders of AZT?

...

That's right, that information is redacted, along with parts of the Constitution of Aztlan.  For the security of the people, of course.

[CitizenJoe]

Aztechnology is perhaps the most diversified megacorporation, with Shiawase being close.  Pull AZT out of the picture and guess what happens to product selection?  It dries up and one corporation gets a monopoly on that product.  Then they crank up the price to extreme levels because they can.  Most of the propaganda I'm hearing against Aztechnology is being fed to you sheeple by AZT's rival corporations. 

I'll give you a what if.... What if Aztechnology (and Aztlan) is run by a bunch of Feathered Serpent dracoforms and all this hatred getting heaped on them is coming from other dracoforms that think these upstarts don't deserve their own territory... or want to take over that territory themselves?  And all of this Aztechnology is Teh Evulz is all part of a draconic game.

[Mirikon]

No, Joe. Just no. AZT has its well deserved reputation for evil for a reason. Cabals of blood mages, and using living people as sacrifices? Evil. Being so quick to doublecross people that the word becomes synonymous with AZT? Evil. Making Sangre del Diablo trees? Evil. And those are just the evils the running world knows about.

AZT is evil to the core, and it isn't a bunch of feathered serpents running it, but a Horror-touched great dragon.

[jonathanc]

There seems to be some confusion here. Allow me to explain: just because you've made yourself an important part of the food chain doesn't mean that you aren't evil.

Aztechnology survives because it is extremely powerful, has fingers in a lot of pies, and destroying it would hurt a lot of its enemies. This is why, even though they pissed off just about everybody, other corps have only acted to weaken, not destroy them.

Evil has nothing to do with utility. Sauron was evil, but hey, he had utility. Those other rings he forged did some awesome stuff for the people he gave them to, and he was Middle Earth's biggest job creator. The fact that destroying Sauron left Middle Earth with millions of unemployed orcs is irrelevant; the problems caused by him being gone were less awful than the problems caused by him existing. And even if they weren't, he would still be classified as "evil", just as Aztechnology is.

Back on topic, I really do wonder how Dunkelzahn's prescence might have changed the Ghostwalker/Denver situation. Would he have defended Denver from GW? Would he have joined up to fight those spirits? Would they have had some brews like brothers who haven't seen each other in a while tend to?

[Patrick Goodman]

Long story short, Aztech is a bunch of dicks, and their continued existence is why we can't have nice things.

LOL!!! Oh, +1 to you! I might have to sig this one of these days!!

[CitizenJoe]

No, Joe. Just no. AZT has its well deserved reputation for evil for a reason. Cabals of blood mages, and using living people as sacrifices?

Sacrifice magic is not evil.  An entire religion was built around that.  And those people volunteered to sacrifice themselves.  Corporations kill people every day, thousands of people through improper safety measures in cars, toxic chemicals in foods, etc.  At least the Azzies are using deaths for something rather than just throwing it away.

Being so quick to doublecross people that the word becomes synonymous with AZT? Evil.

That sounds like sour grapes.  If they really double crossed people that much, nobody would deal with them.  And yet we keep hearing about more people being double crossed.  Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Making Sangre del Diablo trees? Evil. And those are just the evils the running world knows about.

AZT is evil to the core, and it isn't a bunch of feathered serpents running it, but a Horror-touched great dragon.

Pfft!  You act like dragons weren't spawned from the Horrors in the first place.  That's like saying that great dragon has a sweet tooth.

[Mirikon]

All right, I'm not sure whether you're trolling at this point, or whether you really haven't read any of the sourcebooks.

Blood magic is evil. It brings the Horrors closer. Even willing sacrifices. And most of the people sacrificed in Aztlan are NOT willing. And don't even try to spin stabbing a person in the chest and using their life to summon a blood spirit to attack your enemies as 'making their death mean something'.

Actually, they do doublecross people that much. People do still work for them, for two reasons. 1) AZT doesn't always tell people it is an AZT run. 2) They offer cash money. But yes, they do frequent doublecrosses. To the point where they are legendary. Says as much in Corporate enclaves.

Dragons do not come from Horrors. Dragons are simply the eldest of the name-giver races.

I'm going to stop responding to this line of conversation now. Read the Aztlan sourcebook, as well as the AZT section of Corporate Guide, and the Street Magic info on Blood Magic.

[Angelone]

Long story short, Aztech is a bunch of dicks, and their continued existence is why we can't have nice things.

LOL!!! Oh, +1 to you! I might have to sig this one of these days!!

Thanks, I have my moments.

@CitizenJoe

Blood magic is one of the big bads in Shadowrun because of how the Azzies use it. In Earthdawn it was an accepted practice. However, sacrificing someone and enslaving them as a blood spirit just doesn't really jive with what most would call a good thing.

Deliberately planting man eating trees where civilians are expected to run into them isn't that great a thing to do either.

Also the only reason they are after the Ghost Cartels are because the cartels are cutting into their own drug profits.

Lastly, they are responsible for Big D's death and the reason the Horrors almost made it over this early in the mana cycle.

[CitizenJoe]

It is a little trolling.  But more Devil's Advocate.  I fully agree that AZT is the bad guys, but not that they are inherently evil. 

I see no hard evidence that blood magic is bringing the Horrors any sooner.  If I'm going to bitch about AZT it will be about the ridiculous amount of quantifiable pollution they are doing rather than the 1 in a hundred thousand people that use sacrifice magic.  Of course, they might be the misunderstood good guys and their pollution strategy is a tactic to make manaspace so polluted that the Horrors can't survive in it.

The Horrors coming is an inevitable thing, the only question is whether or not we'll be ready.  If we hold them back like a dam, when they do arrive the whole valley is gone.  If we let them through a little at a time, it is manageable and everyone can prepare for the onslaught.  Adversity is the crucible in which we forge our destinies.

There is a theory mentioned in Earthdawn (that got squashed pretty early) that the first dragons were spawned from a horror.  My theory is that dragons are something of a merger of the horror essence and the gaiasphere that suborned the horror's energies to form something of an antibody against the Scourges.