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6e humans.

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penllawen

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« Reply #90 on: <08-26-19/1557:29> »
Fair enough. I address those problems differently (I award karma and nuyen as a pool, and allow players to take unequal shares; and I hand out access to beta/delta cyberware as run rewards at appropriate points.)

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #91 on: <08-26-19/1609:32> »
Yeah in play GMs can do things like that t even if out or make setting sense. But I think the more the system moves to a unified growth mechanic the better for it is. You want cyber to feel distinct from magic but without one type having a huge edge. It’s hard to balance.

That being said most of this is theoretical for most games. As is full delta everything the right qualities etc you can probably squeeze 15 ish essence of ware into a person. Never saw close to that or close to a 15 magic rating. But I’m sure despite being rare there are campaigns that go long enough for that. And for others just the idea of unlimited for mages even if never realized is a issue. Like I’m 1e d&d how many campaigns made it to level 15+ where magic users  dominated. I had I think 3 campaigns in 25 years of 1/2e d&d where mages dipped into super high level land.

penllawen

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« Reply #92 on: <08-26-19/1713:46> »
But I think the more the system moves to a unified growth mechanic the better for it is. You want cyber to feel distinct from magic but without one type having a huge edge. It’s hard to balance.
True, true. I don't disagree. It's not the worst pain point I have with SR but I'd prefer something that worked as you describe.

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But I’m sure despite being rare there are campaigns that go long enough for that. And for others just the idea of unlimited for mages even if never realized is a issue.
I think this is quite real. Most players, even subconsciously, are going to realise that mages have by far the longest runway of any archetype - and even if that's entirely theoretical, even if your campaign will never get to the point it matters, it still contributes to the feeling of imbalance that is often summarised as "magicrun." A feeling I share.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #93 on: <08-29-19/0635:15> »
But I think the more the system moves to a unified growth mechanic the better for it is. You want cyber to feel distinct from magic but without one type having a huge edge. It’s hard to balance.
True, true. I don't disagree. It's not the worst pain point I have with SR but I'd prefer something that worked as you describe.

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But I’m sure despite being rare there are campaigns that go long enough for that. And for others just the idea of unlimited for mages even if never realized is a issue.
I think this is quite real. Most players, even subconsciously, are going to realise that mages have by far the longest runway of any archetype - and even if that's entirely theoretical, even if your campaign will never get to the point it matters, it still contributes to the feeling of imbalance that is often summarised as "magicrun." A feeling I share.

Yeah, I find hypothetical concerns to be less impacting to enjoyment of a game over concerns that arise in a majority of actual play. That being said, if a campaign went where a mage got up to 20 Magic and crazy foci...pretty sure Dragons, Free Spirits, Immortal Elves, and Terrors would have taken notice. Especially if they achieve this when Mana is still in the relatively early stages of rising.

penllawen

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« Reply #94 on: <08-29-19/0722:09> »
Yeah, I find hypothetical concerns to be less impacting to enjoyment of a game over concerns that arise in a majority of actual play. That being said, if a campaign went where a mage got up to 20 Magic and crazy foci...pretty sure Dragons, Free Spirits, Immortal Elves, and Terrors would have taken notice. Especially if they achieve this when Mana is still in the relatively early stages of rising.
The concerns aren't only hypothetical, though. About 50 karma into a campaign, you could have a mage character walking around with permanent buffs granting +4 dice to their key stats (including +8 dice on their drain dice pool), 4d6 init dice, and multiple F6-9 spirits on call who are throwing 25-35 dice to defend (plus hardened armour) and 15-20 dice to attack.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #95 on: <08-29-19/1207:09> »
Yeah, I find hypothetical concerns to be less impacting to enjoyment of a game over concerns that arise in a majority of actual play. That being said, if a campaign went where a mage got up to 20 Magic and crazy foci...pretty sure Dragons, Free Spirits, Immortal Elves, and Terrors would have taken notice. Especially if they achieve this when Mana is still in the relatively early stages of rising.
The concerns aren't only hypothetical, though. About 50 karma into a campaign, you could have a mage character walking around with permanent buffs granting +4 dice to their key stats (including +8 dice on their drain dice pool), 4d6 init dice, and multiple F6-9 spirits on call who are throwing 25-35 dice to defend (plus hardened armour) and 15-20 dice to attack.

Yup. Play with optimizers and it’s a issue that comes up quick. They weakened a bunch of spells I assume to try and curb this. Personally I think they identified the wrong part of the problem. It’s not spells like combat sense existing and being useful. It’s the multiple ways to sustain spells without penalty. Focussed concentration should reduce the penalty not remove it for up to 3 spells.(it turns it into the maintain 3 buff spells quality. If it reduced penalties you’d see people use it for keeping masks up on the party more instead)Sustaining focusses and quickening should have a hard limit on how many that can be put on one person and that limit shouldn’t stack or 1/2 the limit you want so when they stack it gets to your limit.

penllawen

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« Reply #96 on: <08-29-19/1211:55> »
Yup. Play with optimizers and it’s a issue that comes up quick.
I'm writing a doc right now that compares 2e and 5e from the perspective of "MagicRun" and some of the differences are eye opening. But not where I expected them to be; for example, I had forgotten that both sustain foci ("Spell Locks") and Quickening existed in 2e (although Spell Locks came with a crippling handicap and Quickening cost a lot more Karma.)

Sneak peek:

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #97 on: <08-29-19/1220:58> »
Yup. Play with optimizers and it’s a issue that comes up quick.
I'm writing a doc right now that compares 2e and 5e from the perspective of "MagicRun" and some of the differences are eye opening. But not where I expected them to be; for example, I had forgotten that both sustain foci ("Spell Locks") and Quickening existed in 2e (although Spell Locks came with a crippling handicap and Quickening cost a lot more Karma.)

Sneak peek:

Due to that handicap they didn’t get used much at all in my campaigns. Most mages went on 5 or 6+ 1d6. Some got to 2d6 with BioWare, dropping heir magic by 1 but that was it. Very few focuses over the years and very little quickening. Some people gambled on it once their masking was solid enough that they thought they could conceal it. But it usually backfired eventually. Grounding was awesome Imo. Its just the attack should have stopped at the mage and not exploded into the world.

GuardDuty

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« Reply #98 on: <08-29-19/1317:18> »
Yeah, I find hypothetical concerns to be less impacting to enjoyment of a game over concerns that arise in a majority of actual play. That being said, if a campaign went where a mage got up to 20 Magic and crazy foci...pretty sure Dragons, Free Spirits, Immortal Elves, and Terrors would have taken notice. Especially if they achieve this when Mana is still in the relatively early stages of rising.
The concerns aren't only hypothetical, though. About 50 karma into a campaign, you could have a mage character walking around with permanent buffs granting +4 dice to their key stats (including +8 dice on their drain dice pool), 4d6 init dice, and multiple F6-9 spirits on call who are throwing 25-35 dice to defend (plus hardened armour) and 15-20 dice to attack.

This only happens as a result of poor GMing.  You want to walk around decked out in all these spells?  Ok.  Well, they're obvious to everyone that sees you, so that's a thing.  Local law enforcement is going to take an interest in you.  And not just the street cops, but the magical enforcement division...and maybe the national guard.  Hope those spells are legal.  Even if they are (arguably) legal, why are you decked out like that?  Better keep an eye on you.  Forget about even stepping foot near areas with any kind of security rating, they already know about you.  You can't pass through wards, spirits of all kinds are drawn to you, and anyone with more mojo than you in the area certainly is aware of your every movement.

Hope you've got a contact willing to feed work to someone with absolutely no sense of the covert, because no one else will.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #99 on: <08-29-19/1337:18> »
My players got spooked in SR5 when they had to try to get through a Ward with a cop nearby. In SR6 they would face alerting the ward creator on a single failure too.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #100 on: <08-29-19/1346:49> »
As an aside I like how pushing through a ward successfully does not alert the creator in 6e. One of the few positives in the magic section for me. About the only advantage full mages had was astral projection but if you needed 2 meta Magics to scout past a ward without setting off a alarm it kind of fell flat as a perk.

This is how almost every astral scout session went in our games. You see the outside of the  target it has a ward. The end.

Now people might try to push through.

I wish the description of the astral would roll back a few editions where non living things were more in grey scale vs shadowy blobs but I can ignore that easily enough.

Xenon

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« Reply #101 on: <08-29-19/1652:30> »
If you could give them straight +4s they’d of had the best deck in town in their head.

SR6 p. 189 The Living Persona
A technomancer’s living persona has Matrix attributes based on their Mental attributes (as below) plus a number of bonus points equal to their Resonance. A single attribute cannot be raised by more than 50 percent of its base rating (rounded up, to a maximum of +4). Example: A technomancer with a Logic of 5 and a Resonance of 4 could increase their Data Processing to 8 by spending three points (half of their Logic 5, rounded up). Bonus points can be moved between two attributes with a Reconfigure Matrix Attribute action.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #102 on: <08-29-19/1710:11> »
If you could give them straight +4s they’d of had the best deck in town in their head.

SR6 p. 189 The Living Persona
A technomancer’s living persona has Matrix attributes based on their Mental attributes (as below) plus a number of bonus points equal to their Resonance. A single attribute cannot be raised by more than 50 percent of its base rating (rounded up, to a maximum of +4). Example: A technomancer with a Logic of 5 and a Resonance of 4 could increase their Data Processing to 8 by spending three points (half of their Logic 5, rounded up). Bonus points can be moved between two attributes with a Reconfigure Matrix Attribute action.

I’ll have to reread the section but I took that limit to just be about the bonus points from resonance. That if I boosted your logic by 4 that would be your new base logic.

Banshee

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« Reply #103 on: <08-30-19/0753:20> »
If you could give them straight +4s they’d of had the best deck in town in their head.

SR6 p. 189 The Living Persona
A technomancer’s living persona has Matrix attributes based on their Mental attributes (as below) plus a number of bonus points equal to their Resonance. A single attribute cannot be raised by more than 50 percent of its base rating (rounded up, to a maximum of +4). Example: A technomancer with a Logic of 5 and a Resonance of 4 could increase their Data Processing to 8 by spending three points (half of their Logic 5, rounded up). Bonus points can be moved between two attributes with a Reconfigure Matrix Attribute action.

I’ll have to reread the section but I took that limit to just be about the bonus points from resonance. That if I boosted your logic by 4 that would be your new base logic.

yes, the intent of this was just about the limit of the boost from resonance itself and does not count against the augmentation limit ... however I would add the caveat that someone higher up the food chain than me can overrule and say that it does count against the augmentation limit.

for example as I intended ... Logic 6 + Increased Attribute 4 and a Resonance of 8 (submerged twice so far) means you can have a Data Processing max of 15 ... Logic 10 + 5 (50%) ... but would only leave you 3 resonance points to spend elsewhere
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Hobbes

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« Reply #104 on: <08-30-19/1554:51> »
Are Matrix Attributes capped by the +4 Augmentation limit?  I mean like explicitly, RAW, somewhere?  I honestly can't recall seeing it.

Because a TM can boost Mental Attributes with 'ware, friendly spells and Drugs, up to +4.  Then Boost a Matrix Attribute with Complex Forms and Resonance and whatever and AFAIK that can go on indefinitely.