[Lucean]

Since the Arts are for magicians only and the Ways are for adepts I leave you to figure it out on your own.

When the Ways are in the same section as Initiation Arts, in a section which is entitled Secrets of the Initiates, then where are you supposed to infer this hidden meaning that Ways aren't an Initiation thing. That you can simply pay 20 Karma and immediately receive a package deal.

Arts are for Mages, Ways are for Adepts. Both are Magic users, governed by quite a few of the same rules.

Seems you failed to connect the dots ...
Adepts and Magicians are both awakened and are both allowed to initiate. That's why both are in the mentioned chapter.
But had you read the introduction more thoroughly you'd discovered that it's only about magicians. So nothing that follows applies to adepts. The descriptions of the various metamagics even continue to call out "magicians" as their respective audience.
And then we have the Physical Arts starting with: "Adepts can learn their own metamagics as they progress. As the adept chooses a Way (or chooses not to choose), more improvement options become available.

This again is clear, since the first part about initiating into arts did not apply to adepts. The chapter Physical Magic then has more Information about the Ways.

And sorry, just because you didn't read thoroughly enough, doesn't mean that the information was not there.

[FastJack]

Likewise, we don't mind some profanity, but excessive use of it in a single post is not allowed. Watch what you're saying, around here. Imagine you're speaking to a group of kindergartners that will repeat what they here to their parents and teachers.

[Marcus Gideon]

So basically... you're making this shit up as you go? You're calling them Qualities, only they don't adhere to ANY of the rules that govern every other Quality in the game. You've got them listed with the rest of the Initiation Arts, but they don't require Initiation like all the other listed Arts do.

I understand when some GMs will house rule stuff, saying "Well yes. The rules do say that. But I've decided that at my table we're going to do something different." But when the writers themselves can't adhere to the rules of the game, I kinda lose my mind. How in the fuck can you call yourselves professionals, and expect people to pay rather large sums of money for your products, when you obviously can't decide how the game is supposed to be played.

THIS SHIT is why we have such lengthy and repeated discussions on these forums. "How does XYZ work?" over and over and over again. It's because the writers don't even know how it's supposed to work. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, but both of them are outstretched to take our money.

Holy shit...

Likewise, we don't mind some profanity, but excessive use of it in a single post is not allowed. Watch what you're saying, around here. Imagine you're speaking to a group of kindergartners that will repeat what they here to their parents and teachers.

I didn't realize Kindergartners were your target audience, but now that I look at the packaging again...



I can't wait to bring my bunraku sex puppet for Show and Tell.

Thank you for proving my point. You were expecting the pretty pictures to keep us pacified, so we wouldn't notice the quality of the product was terrible and steadily getting worse. "Look at the shiny things! Pay no attention to the writing and mechanics behind that curtain."

How about; instead of treating the customers like children, we put on our big boy pants and talk to the employees freelancers about their work. They're the ones who can't keep the rules straight long enough to write them all down. And as Adzling has been saying, there should be some amount of proofreading to make sure everything makes sense in the end. Not just rushing scribbles on napkins off to the printers so they can make another buck. Like I said before, these books cost too much to be this terrible.

There ya go... not a single grown-up word. Well, except for "sex", but I learned that one in your book.

[adzling]

Where's the Errata after over a year?

Why isn't the errata that has been released (For S.G. & The Core book) complete?

Why can't Catalyst publish a book that is not riddled with errors, omissions and half-written rules?

/drops mic

[Whiskeyjack]

So I went looking for the TOS to see if discussing moderation action was verboten - I wasn't able to find the written TOS (looking on my phone though) so please let me know if orthogonal comment on moderation action is not allowed.

I ask because I note that Marcus's prior post was totally deleted. Yes I understand it was incendiary. I'm not referencing that point of it or defending it one way or another.

I do think it's a valid point to say the game comes across like "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing" and "writers seem to be making things up as they go" - which is reinforced by the lack of updated official errata and the need to rely on freelancer forum posts, which (IMO) are unlikely to be vetted by the highest authorities on the game - as in, what you intended is rest and all, but you're not in a position to determine whether your RAI are how the RAW are supposed to work - one presumes that a lancer submits their draft and the editor (or some developer) brings it into compliance where it is lacking.

I'm going to contrast this with another game. Exalted 2e is notorious for having a gigantic errata document which freelancers did, for free, and which was approved by an employee of the company controlling the IP, to provide as much support as possible for a frankly broken system. Exalted 3e is only out to backers, but you have non-developer authors clarifying their intent with regard to their writing, without claiming that just because hey wrote it, that's how it should be in relation to the RAW. Instead they're saying "this is my intent but I'm not a developer so this is not Word of God, I'm trying to clarify but I'm not speaking officially."

I don't think we get either of those here. We get no errata, and writers speak authoritatively on their intent, when they may in fact have no authority to decide greater rules interactions as they are not the book or line dev.

Therefore to me, writer intent is valuable on an academic level, but ultimately not that useful, and hardly conclusive. Especially at tables where people care only about the book RAW + errata (certainly in part because a lot of people play the game but don't use the forum, or don't know author handles on it, so published books + official errata is all you can truly depend on).

Hence these feelings that there is no communication, no effective leadership/editing, and a lot of times author intent very often comes off as dissonant from the actual printed rules that we paid for. Look at the "clarification" on slaving and PANs as to how that kind if statement just causes more confusion when it conflicts with what the book itself is saying.

So it concerns me where those aspects of the post were also deleted, not just the inflammatory material, because I see these parts as legitimate criticism of the process and product, which I thought we were allowed to express.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

WhiskeyJack, I 100% agree with you.

[Rooks]

Where's the Errata after over a year?

Why isn't the errata that has been released (For S.G. & The Core book) complete?

Why can't Catalyst publish a book that is not riddled with errors, omissions and half-written rules?

/drops mic

Cause its all written in German apparently? Seriously I dont see the point of kicking sand in the mods face, just move on. will also point out though 4th Edition had a multitude of alternatives rules (some the early stages of limits where the skill rating also equaled the number of successes you got to keep) Seriously though if you dont like the product either A dont buy it or B write a letter to the company expressing your displeasure, no use taking it out on a forum post the company will not read. what they will read is social media their website is http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/ which lists all their facebook twitter and the like if you want answers I suggest going there instead of taking it out here. heck write a petition get other people to sign it do something other than complain like a 5 year old kid to a group of people that cant do anything to fix it.

Heck I'll do you one more #fixshadowrun5 @catalystgamelab I hate hashtags but guess what if it didnt work people wouldnt use them.

[FST_Gemstar]

I thought that there was clarification that they do not cost double after character generation, but if taken at character generation, count towards positive quality karma limit (thought I wish this wasn't the case).

In other news: Was there any initiation rituals/enhancements/metamagics associated with the Artisan's Way? It's the one Way that got forgotten in that section. 

[Marcus Gideon]

I thought that there was clarification that they do not cost double after character generation, but if taken at character generation, count towards positive quality karma limit (thought I wish this wasn't the case).

That’s kinda how this whole thing started…

They do NOT count towards maximum positive qualities

I believe the author said so ... Need to check up on that again.

Yes I did, you are correct.   

And some have claimed the Ways price doubles post character gen, which my group ignores cause about .75 PP refund and cheaper foci/similar effect is not worth 40 karma.

They do not cost 40 post char gen, so you're doing it correctly.

Mystic is apparently the author of those sections. And stepped forward to clarify that they do not count towards the 25 point limit, nor do they double in price post-CharGen.
To which I replied… but my reply was mysteriously deleted for using too many naughty words. And thus started this whole conversation about how the freelancers make stuff up as they go, with no adherence to the established rules. And nobody comes along behind them to make sure that what they said in Section A makes sense when compared to Section B. And how we (the community) are still somewhat at a loss as to whether their hitherto unvoiced intentions of how they wanted their section of rules to work, should be taken as official errata. When the Rules As Written say one thing, but (someone claiming to be) the author says something completely different.

[Pap Renvela]

I doubt  that anyone is 'claiming' to be an author when they're not.

However, as has been pointed out, just because an author intended xyz does not mean that once its submitted that the person aobve him intended to keep it xyz,

And the booken record- it would be nice if the people or person (if its just one) who does decide what is ultimately intended would stop playing Battletech long enough to state what intended is, especially in the matrix rules and that blurb 2/3 of the people ignore in SG about spirits only being limited to their domain- combat/combat, health/health. Oh and I'm sure others want clarification on a whole host of things not mentioned,

Not that I'm disparaging Battletech- played it for years...but if it can get effective errata so should SR.

[Zar]

Let's just all agree that the Street Grimoire was drek and move on.  The guy in charge admitted to the problem and has vowed to fix it which to a good degree things are better than they were.  But they do not have a monetary incentive to actually go back and rewrite the Grimoire to make sense and be of use because everyone would just demand it to be free.

That being said, it has been said by the design team that Ways are not positive quantities, that they are not doubled after creation and basically have their own new set of rules.  So if during creation, you have 20 karma you can buy a Way.  It doesn't matter if you maxed out your positive quantities or not.  After creation, you can spend 20 karma and get about .75 power points back for adept powers. 

To me, it's not worth it, since Initiation is cheaper and I can still say I follow a Way just by selecting the suggested powers but to each their own.

[MijRai]

Ways give access to a few unique powers, which are quite helpful in some cases.  Also, getting that 50% discount for every two points of Magic really can add up. 

Domain of the Warrior, for example, lets you reduce the penalties from background counts caused by violence by Initiate level +1.  Assuming Magic 8 and you only discounted 0.50 Adept Powers, you've also gotten a 'free' full Power Point (with .25 more per two points of Magic you get).  On top of that, you've got a 2 Karma discount on bonding with Weapon Foci.  Hell, looking at the Spiritual Way you could argue that their Metamagic to ignore 1+Initiate Level in Background count from religious/spiritual locations applies to insect shamans and some blood magic sites. 

Initiation is cheaper to start, but Ways throw in more goodies and can grow with more Initiations. 

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

3/4 initiation they are effectively the same cost, and with the discount kicking in everytime your magic hits value/2 (aka even number) that is really sweet. Heck .75pp can get you some sweet powers or upgrade ones you already have.

[Fherrit]

Returning gamer to the SR fold, last time I ran/played was with 2nd ed and yes, I'm feeling very old these days. 

On Topic:

With all due respect, I understand that adding my voice to the grumbling is more "negative noise" and thus easy to tune out, but honestly, it makes me appreciate how Paizo runs their shop more than ever.

My group consists of 5 individuals who have been gamers (2 of them pros in the industry) for nearly 30 years now, and we all are aware of the challenges inherit in this industry, but the SG is a decidedly frustrating product.  SR is on its 5th evolution, the support books should have a lot more clarity than is currently the case and is likely due to too many cooks adding to the stew.

I respectfully suggest SR's IP owners get together, appoint a committed project leader who gets all participating authors on the same page and definitively clean up the SG with a official 2nd printing (with a discount for owners of the 1st print).  At some point you got to eat the frog and do the right thing with the product you put on the market, and not insist your customers have to wade through a sea of forum posts for answers.  This is your baby and I'm quite certain a massive labor of love, don't let complacency ruin what could be achieved with honorable followup.

[Marcus]

I'll agree the ways have more then their fair share of issues. For a number of reasons. If you want make them kinda viable then treat them as martial arts. The thread where that was mentioned is in forum somewhere. I'm sure that hasn't and isn't going to be added to the errata though.

It is worth noting beast way was one the most rapid errata's of 5th to date.

I'm not saying everything is prefect and full agavy love, but some one does have some kind of vision of balance. Regardless it's not a huge deal You can always house rule it at your table, if ya just can't stand it.