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A question of grenades and setting them off

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martinchaen

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« Reply #60 on: <07-16-14/0902:42> »
Yep, that sounds about right.

LionofPerth

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« Reply #61 on: <07-16-14/1203:23> »
One of the earliest and most consistent themes of cyberpunk is technology running amok.  For one, you don't have "a" military, there exists dozens of corporations capable of fielding their own militaries, each of which have their own political structure and methodologies.  More than that, it's the corporations that produce the weapons on today's battlefields, not DARPA led committees or research grants.  So, the question is not "what requirements does the UCAS have of modern weapons" but "what does Ares sell to the world's armies?"  Individual countries take a back seat.  It's the corporations that fight wars and run nations, and it's their R&D departments and factories churning out the weapons.

That being said, feel free to ignore any tropes or themes that rub you the wrong way.  It's your game after all.

......

I totally understand that.  Having no particular care one way or another, I don't mind electrically detonated explosives.  It's a magic trick of science, to be sure, but we've seen plenty of those in our lifetime.  It would be nice if someone had bothered to explain how that's supposed to work.  In most sci-fi novels, they at least do the courtesy of showing what goes into the new magical gadgetry.  Again, cyberpunk.

I think you may have misread my post.

My point is the basic values of soldiery, of being a soldier and serving as a soldier means, wouldn't have changed much and hasn't changed much. While the doctrine changes and can change dramatically, where and who they fight does as well, that element of looking out for the guy next to you, the guy next to him. The esprit de'corps for the unit you follow, chains of command, why a sergeant major or higher can advise a lieutenant, but if he tries with a captain, it's bad form. Why that master chief petty officer, you listen to under pain of a great many punishments as he's basically allowed to speak with the voice of captain of naval vessel.

While a guy in the trenches mightn't understand CQB and modern language, he does understand how he reports to, why he reports to them and what a proper salute is. This is what I am getting at, it's the very training and profession of being a soldier. At least in Shadowrun's time, you might have Mage's as a support unit, if not an Electronic Warfare specialist at the squad/platoon level. That on a whole they're still soldiers, and they still have the same values that make soldiers different, unique even.

It's not that as well, it's consistency on my end. If you're going to create something very outlandish, at least in my mind, like this, you can't hand wave it away. You need an explanation. If the few of us here can utterly pick things apart, it could be done better.
When in doubt, C4.

adzling

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« Reply #62 on: <07-16-14/1434:37> »
IF you got Cyberware then it's entirely rational you got electrically detonated explosives that don't otherwise go boom.

So yeah, I agree with you Lion that the basics of soldiering would remain relatively constant as you lay out above.

But tech?
Not so much imho.

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #63 on: <07-16-14/1828:49> »
I would quote, but I'm on my phone and that's a PITA, so I wont.

I am replying back to Lion however.

I'm going to say that I didn't misread your post.  You have substituted out the meat of your argument for something I'm not arguing against that also doesn't support your original premise.

Espirit De corps doesn't change.  We aren't talking about that.  What we are talking about is the military decision makers.

I'm even going to say that the UCAS military mostly functions the way it did (on a much more groomed and pruned down scale).  That says nothing of the myriad corporate and new national entities that control militaries.  The NAN, PCC, Tir Tairngire,  and dear god Aztlan/Aztechnology, as well as ALL of the other Big Ten and the Corporate Council itself have standing armies and their own independent executive branches that make all the decisions for them.

And all of them are looking for the edge against their neighbors and potential enemies near and far.  The corporate wars and the great Ghost Dance are all in recent memory.  Magic came back and trounced conventional warfare.  Getting that edge means taking risks on new technology, because nobody has the luxury of time like we do today.

More than that, using electrical fuses is an incremental change, similar to other incremental changes that all arsenals of all militaries go through.

That being said, not all grenades necessarily use C12 or electronic fuses.  This depends entirely on the manufacturer and the demands of those disparate, clustered militaries receiving the goods.

Sengir

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« Reply #64 on: <07-17-14/0620:22> »
Also, the thingamajig ammunition (Raufoss MultiPurpose) you are referring to does not operate on the same shaped-charge principle as the explosive ammo in Shadowrun does.
Only if you take the bit about EX ammo being shaped charges as canon. I consider it an inadvertently misused technical term, since EX rounds clearly do not have the properties of a shaped charge (AP -1 is hardly an anti-armor weapon).

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #65 on: <07-17-14/0817:16> »
Also, the thingamajig ammunition (Raufoss MultiPurpose) you are referring to does not operate on the same shaped-charge principle as the explosive ammo in Shadowrun does.
Only if you take the bit about EX ammo being shaped charges as canon. I consider it an inadvertently misused technical term, since EX rounds clearly do not have the properties of a shaped charge (AP -1 is hardly an anti-armor weapon).

You have to consider the +2 DV as well as the -1 AP.  Taken in total, they do more damage than APDS and affect penetration by a difference of 3... one point behind APDS.  I would consider that to be pretty anti-armor.

Sengir

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« Reply #66 on: <07-17-14/0927:56> »
You have to consider the +2 DV as well as the -1 AP. 
+1 DV, and that's only good if you get through the armor. Against hardened armor, -3 AP is worth far more than +1 damage.

LionofPerth

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« Reply #67 on: <07-17-14/1230:34> »
But tech?
Not so much imho.

It still has to follow physics and right now it's pure handwavium. I've never been a fan of handwavium at the best of times. Difference of opinion, agree to disagree?

Nice post, issue explained below.

Which was a subject I never intended to get into in any way, shape or form. I never intended to take the discussion down those lines and frankly wonder how you arrived at a point where I did.

Looking over my posts, I was speaking very much in the general. I wasn't trying to get into subject area at all, partly because it doesn't work that like. The rest of it is honest confusion, I don't understand how you could read that from any of my post.

I suppose a part of it as well as the above, is the fact I have followed as best I can, a number of military projects and development cycles. The ATF fly-offs where in the 1980s, that's for the current generation of fighters and strike craft, the F-22 and F-35. The 1980's. The project timelines for things like ships, submarines, that's easily in the decades all up, from initial concept through to construction, deployment.

Rifles follow something of a similar pattern, though I would suspect, this is without hard numbers in front of me, a period of years is actually quite common, prior to general adoption. If there are exceptions, it's in war time, in which very specific requirements are sought. Prime example being the production of the Sten gun, the Mark 3* Lee Enfield, the like. The creation of thee Firefly pattern take with its 17 pound gun, Allied 88 equivalent for those not so versed in history, was driven by the need to kill the latest Panzers variants, as well as Tiger variants.

Perhaps martinchaen can come back and explain a little about what he saw, maybe even prove me wrong here. Things like this are generally only started when a major body has seen a gap in its capability or is approached by another with  a noted gap in capability. That as Russia continued to advance the MiG designs, America and its allies needed fighters that were able to outperform and out fight the MiG. This was then presented to a number of organisations, who provided a number of potential designs to the specified characteristics.

Sure, Ares can design, develop, prototype, produce, market and sell a new rifle. If no other body has a need for such a rifle, then what do they gain by doing so? I challenge that doing so is bad business strategy and would actually loose their Triple A status pretty quickly. If you're looking to improve an existing product or have been engaged by another group to improve that product, that's fine with me. To do it for no reason other than to fill a need you intend to try and create? That doesn't make sense to me.

I also have to challenge that the reappearance of magic is as big a game changer as I believe you think. However, this thread has long since left it's original topic and perhaps it might be best to close it.
« Last Edit: <07-17-14/1232:55> by LionofPerth »
When in doubt, C4.

martinchaen

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« Reply #68 on: <07-17-14/1409:41> »
I'm not a historian, nor was I really involved in military R&D efforts except perhaps for being a member of one of the first units issued rifles chambered for .338 ammunition, an effort that had already begun when I joined up.

We were issued modified Sako TRG-42 rifles in mid-2001, at a point when Sako didn't manufacture barrels for this caliber. Another supplier was used for this purpose, and we used a variety of barrel lengths and twist rates before settling on a 28" barrel with a 1-10 twist. This process took less than 6 months all told, but at the end of these trials it was becoming increasingly clear that NATO would begin deploying troops in Afghanistan.

If memory serves me right, I fired the majority of my training rounds during that first period of time (upwards of 10k rounds) and shortly after.

That being said, this was a highly specialized weapon system designed for minimal implementation (my detachment had less than 50 rifles), and as such I don't belive it compares to something like the implementation of the M16 rifle or the M67 grenade; one would need to look at those kinds of projects to gain comparable data, to my mind.

LionofPerth

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« Reply #69 on: <07-17-14/1421:10> »
I'm not a historian, nor was I really involved in military R&D efforts except perhaps for being a member of one of the first units issued rifles chambered for .338 ammunition, an effort that had already begun when I joined up.

We were issued modified Sako TRG-42 rifles in mid-2001, at a point when Sako didn't manufacture barrels for this caliber. Another supplier was used for this purpose, and we used a variety of barrel lengths and twist rates before settling on a 28" barrel with a 1-10 twist. This process took less than 6 months all told, but at the end of these trials it was becoming increasingly clear that NATO would begin deploying troops in Afghanistan.

If memory serves me right, I fired the majority of my training rounds during that first period of time (upwards of 10k rounds) and shortly after.

That being said, this was a highly specialized weapon system designed for minimal implementation (my detachment had less than 50 rifles), and as such I don't belive it compares to something like the implementation of the M16 rifle or the M67 grenade; one would need to look at those kinds of projects to gain comparable data, to my mind.

Thanks for this, much as I suspected to be honest.

I do owe you a few, how do you like your thanks, does a net beer or two on me sound good?

When in doubt, C4.

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #70 on: <07-17-14/1638:17> »
You have to consider the +2 DV as well as the -1 AP. 
+1 DV, and that's only good if you get through the armor. Against hardened armor, -3 AP is worth far more than +1 damage.

EX Explosive, which is not regular explosive, does +2 DV and -1 AP.   The armor calculation is DV VS Armor, so any + to DV also pushes the damage into physical.  In this case, the difference is a net 3 for EX Explosive versus a net 4 for APDS.  The explosive ultimately does more damage, however, because on an average, -4 ap will prevent 1.333 damage soak.  Thus, the damage difference is 7 to 4.

For EX Explosive versus APDS, you are trading off having one extra point of armor pent ration for an average extra real damage box.

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #71 on: <07-17-14/1652:55> »
Sure, Ares can design, develop, prototype, produce, market and sell a new rifle. If no other body has a need for such a rifle, then what do they gain by doing so? I challenge that doing so is bad business strategy and would actually loose their Triple A status pretty quickly. If you're looking to improve an existing product or have been engaged by another group to improve that product, that's fine with me. To do it for no reason other than to fill a need you intend to try and create? That doesn't make sense to me.

I also have to challenge that the reappearance of magic is as big a game changer as I believe you think. However, this thread has long since left it's original topic and perhaps it might be best to close it.

It's simple, really.  Corporations are nations in their own right. They own territory, the fight over resources, they go to war.  When Ares makes an assault rifle, they are filling their own needs and they sell them because now everyone else needs something that competes.  That's their corporate strategy - make the best weapons and make the world reliant on them to get their weapons.

And good rifles are more important in SR than they are today.  When the war is in the shadows, it's the grunts and ground troops that need the best gear to fight off the Shadowrunners and black ops teams.

Anyway, if you don't want to continue, that's fine.  We can end it there.

LionofPerth

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« Reply #72 on: <07-18-14/0439:06> »
Sure, Ares can design, develop, prototype, produce, market and sell a new rifle. If no other body has a need for such a rifle, then what do they gain by doing so? I challenge that doing so is bad business strategy and would actually loose their Triple A status pretty quickly. If you're looking to improve an existing product or have been engaged by another group to improve that product, that's fine with me. To do it for no reason other than to fill a need you intend to try and create? That doesn't make sense to me.

I also have to challenge that the reappearance of magic is as big a game changer as I believe you think. However, this thread has long since left it's original topic and perhaps it might be best to close it.

It's simple, really.  Corporations are nations in their own right. They own territory, the fight over resources, they go to war.  When Ares makes an assault rifle, they are filling their own needs and they sell them because now everyone else needs something that competes.  That's their corporate strategy - make the best weapons and make the world reliant on them to get their weapons.

And good rifles are more important in SR than they are today.  When the war is in the shadows, it's the grunts and ground troops that need the best gear to fight off the Shadowrunners and black ops teams.

Anyway, if you don't want to continue, that's fine.  We can end it there.

Which still doesn't make sense if you're actually familiar with how nations and corporations actually work on these types of projects.

The issue is that when you do embark on something like this, it's a twenty, thirty, forty year contract. You're going to be stuck providing parts, ammunition, maybe even manufacturing and training for that entire length of time. The USS Missouri served in Vietnam and was still firing shells made in WW2. Orders in this area in hundreds of thousands of units, millions maybe. Ammunition easily stretches into the billions of rounds. Ten billion, if we're talking infantry rounds.

if it is as you suggest, which is 'let's build a new rifle from the ground up' how many military grade weapons would be out there on the market? Black market? Runners wouldn't need to worry about F rated gear as it''s that easy for them to acquire, the basic Kalashnikov equivalent would be sold at a loss as there are so many higher quality products just as easily available. It means the market for illegal goods is flooded with a constant level of military grade hardware and that stuff is serious. It also in my mind implies and fundamentally requires a constant advancement in body armour. That if everyone can so easily acquire an assault rifle, basic level security guards, greeters at doors are going to need military grade protection.

In everything I've read about Shadowrun, I do not believe that is the case. That projects still have a lifetime of between three and ten years, for infantry grade items, ten to twenty years or so for armoured vehicles and naval warships. Perhaps even large scale civilian vessels as well. There's a period of testing and refining I think you're missing here. As well a large number of trials and prototypes that do get produced. It wouldn't surprise me that the prototype units for the M4 put hundreds of thousand rounds down range, just trying to make the weapon fail.

Also, if Ares sell everything they make, doesn't that lead to a self-defeating path for them? That their opponents can have easy access to a massive number of units, work out how to sabotage them, or design a better item based almost entirely off Ares own work? If this is such corporate and greed given as you seemingly suggest, then you're looking at a world that is either full of patent cases or a place where there are very loose, if only guideline level patent laws.

Here's the thing, let's look at the basic M4 and the HK 416. HK dramatically improved the basic M4 design with the inclusion of their design work. In clear the dirty gases from the chamber, the weapon in theory needs to be clean less, an issue I've heard about the M4. That it needs to be very regularly cleaned to maintain it in full functionality. In addition to that, the design also allows water, sad, other things that would foul the M4. not cause any issues or cause far less issues in the HK 416.

I would suggest, if things worked as you seem to suggest, any company or body that makes the M4 would steal the design specifications from HK and would produce it under their own. In the modern world, doing such a thing would be an outrage to most of the world and lead to such a suite of patent suits that it would take hundreds of years worth of combined court time to resolve. In the Shadowrun world, I'd suggest the Corporate Court would order the destruction of the corporation that did this and would assign assets out to the Top Ten and other corporations as they see fit. From memory, the Court has dissolved a corporation before, they would here.

I would suggest you do some reading on how street gangs progress up the chain to full blown mafia, Yakuza like bodies. There's a concept of behaviour I think you're missing here. That behaviour is very much informal but it's also highly valued. It's also in my mind, how they can use Shadowrunners, making acts of men look like acts of god. They're not allowed to attack each other directly, which is exactly what stealing another company's newest product is. It's also why I say that the Top Ten need each other. They need the competition to drive product research and development. While profit is certainly a goal, the single minded drive for profit and dominance I believe is mistaken and certainly at this end of the RPG (designers, writers, editors etc) the people need to sit down in a Politics 101/Intro to Political Theory class and learn their isms, in this case the difference between fascism and capitalism. Why they're not that different on some level as well.

As a take away note, I'm happy to continue this. However if you're planning on continuing, take this as a warning. I will get exceedingly academic here. I will use plenty of isms, ists and I will research prime examples to provide my evidence. If you're not willing to have that level discussion, let bygones be bygones and all that. Am I being clear?
When in doubt, C4.

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #73 on: <07-18-14/0904:49> »
No, no and hell no.  You aren't making any sense, and your counterpoints don't line up with my arguments.   I am officially giving up trying to help you with this.

Maybe just read Snow Crash and Virtual Light.  They do a pretty good job of showing what the cyberpunk genre is about.

LionofPerth

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« Reply #74 on: <07-18-14/1004:30> »
No, no and hell no.  You aren't making any sense, and your counterpoints don't line up with my arguments.   I am officially giving up trying to help you with this.

Maybe just read Snow Crash and Virtual Light.  They do a pretty good job of showing what the cyberpunk genre is about.

We obviously have severely different standards on how the world works.
When in doubt, C4.