[adzling]

with a wireless trigger you can remote detonate an explosive (in this instance a grenade).

Layer in Srun's PAN and a mind-link (for example a smart-link which allows you to fire your smartgun without physically pulling the trigger, but other mind control links should work fine too, like for example a cyber comlink that can send a text to your grenade with the word "boom" or some special unique password like "boom diggity!") and you can detonate your grenade wirelessly by thought.

I would imagine that a multi-mode detonator would be commonplace for grenades in 2070.

i.e. it would have timed, contact, motion, distance-travelled and wireless trigger options available.
this would let you cover almost all the bases for how it might be triggered and let you use it as a conventional timed or contact grenade as well as a small mine or remotely detonated explosive.
you just tell it which one is going to be used before you throw it...or hells after you throw it
if course it wouldnt do any of this (i.e. it couldn't be armed) until you physically pull the pin, you don't want a decker hacking your 'nades!

i'm sure there's others that could be dreamed up, like a grenade that interrogates the wireless PANs in it's blast vicinity, logs them as friend or foe and either triggers or doesn't, etcetc

[JimmyCrisis]

So, I spent a couple hours going through Cannon Companion, Arsenal, Run & Gun and the core books for SR3,4&5.  There isn't any reference for what kind of explosives are used in grenades.

From what I've gleaned, it appears that it doesn't matter what the secondary explosive is when the primary explosive (the detonator) will react when being shot.  So that brings me to this:

SR5 Page 436
Commercial explosives: A range of explosive compounds, both solid and liquid, are available to the construction industry for all their destructive needs.

Plastic explosives: These highly stable moldable, and adhesive explosive compounds are military grade. They’re ideal for certain jobs, like breaching walls. They are usually color-tinted to indicate the level of current needed to detonate them, from the black of magnetic- field induction to the chalky white of 440-volt industrial explosives.

Detonator cap: This detonator is inserted into a mass of explosives and set off either by a programmable timer or radio signal. Setting the timer takes a Complex Action. Wireless: You can set the detonator’s timer with a Simple Action. You can also set it off without a countdown as a Free Action.

Run & Gun goes on to describe multiple types of detonators, two of which are important to this discussion:

Blasting Caps
  These use a primary explosive charge and come in many different flavors, including electric, non-electric and fuse caps.  They are the most commonly used construction and demolition, or in other words, commercial explosives.

Electrical Detonators
  These use no explosives at all but are designed to dump an electric charge to detonate an electrically sensitive explosives, i.e. military grade explosives like C12.

Furthermore, any kind of detonator can be used to set off TNT, if that is still the secondary explosive in grenades in 2075. 

I imagine some grenades would use TNT, and others would use C12.  More potent explosives mean more bang in a smaller package, so it would make sense that if C12 is the new primary military explosive, grenades would use that instead so soldiers could carry more of them, assuming it's economically viable.  Now, R&G says Nitroglycerin has an explosive rating of 6, but makes no mention of TNT.  I'm going to assume this means TNT is also a rating 6 commercial explosive, and not a rating 12 or 25 military explosive.  I could be wrong.  TNT costs 100 nuyen to make, which puts it in the ballpark of commercial grade (also 100 nuyen to buy), while plastic explosive is 100 x rating to buy or 200 x rating to make.  It seems to be more economical to make grenades out of commercial grade explosives from this perspective.  Either way, I imagine militaries would have switched to electrical detonators entirely, if only so that the grenade fuses could be re-purposed for detonating C12.

I would like to add that Shadowrun explosives have always been ridiculously under powered by weight.  1kg of commercial explosives should do way more than 6 damage.  Grenades have always been much deadlier in the setting.  I'm not going to use that argument to say that commercial explosives don't go into grenades - it's just a stupid holdover that should have been corrected many editions ago.

[martinchaen]

C12 is an unknown; if it is anything like C4 it is, again, mostly RDX (80-90% if my memory serves me right). Modern grenades use Comp B, which is as previously mentioned a 60/40 (roughly) mix of RDX and TNT.

RDX was discovered around 1900, and saw widespread use in WWII and all the way up until modern times, as it forms the basis of most military explosives (Composition B, Semtex, C-4).

Nitroglycerin is highly unstable in it's raw, liquid state, and is considered a primary explosive, unlike TNT and RDX.

The part about electrical detonators in SR5 Run & Gun changes everything from a setting perspective; this is technology we don't have today.

In essence, then, it'll have to be up to the GM, as always, because we don't know enough about C12 and electrical detonators (that do not contain any explosives) to make a real world comparison.

I will say that I think it is highly doubtful that the militaries of the world would have switched wholesale; as for the OP's question, you'd have to decide for yourself if this kind of intimate explosives knowledge is something the player character possesses, after you decide if the grenade he's targeting is using a primary explosive or electrical fuse.

I think my biggest issue with C12 being electrically sensitive is that there is no real world equivalent whatsoever for this; the only explosives that can be triggered by electricity are primary class explosives, and they are all unstable in other ways as well. Chalk this one up to "science!", I guess.

In any case, now that my point has finally gotten across, my work here is done

[Leevizer]

So basically, you can stick and shock an electrically sensitive explosive to go boom.

Has anyone raised the question of using explosive ammo for detonating explosives yet? I might have missed it.

[Reaver]

So basically, you can stick and shock an electrically sensitive explosive to go boom.

Has anyone raised the question of using explosive ammo for detonating explosives yet? I might have missed it.

The rules my group uses, that just affects the PV and DV of weapon as normal. "KISS" method.

[Leevizer]

So basically, you can stick and shock an electrically sensitive explosive to go boom.

Has anyone raised the question of using explosive ammo for detonating explosives yet? I might have missed it.

The rules my group uses, that just affects the PV and DV of weapon as normal. "KISS" method.

So your group has no objections to, say, Silencers and explosive ammo used in conjunction? Especially at short ranges?

Rules-wise it is obviously a good idea to keep it simple (which we do in our group as well), but I think the question here is more of a flavourful one for roleplaying out different situations? If the situation is something that requires electricity, explosives or whatnot and the player has a good idea for his special ammunition to come to use, why not let him try?

[martinchaen]

EX ammo does not necessarily imply high explosive grenade-like detonations, Leevizer.

The only real world equivalent I can think of is 12.7mm Raufoss MultiPurpose ammo. I've fired these myself, and even though they are high explosive, armor penetrating, incendiary rounds (yes, really...), in my experience the impact and detonation of the round itself isn't any louder than a regular FMJ 12.7mm round.

If you do Hollywood style explosions and silencers, this obviously changes a lot of things...

[Leevizer]

Did you fire this ammunition with a silencer on the weapon? Was the weapon a pistol? Was your target ballistic gelatin (or a human) wearing impact-resistant armour? Were you indoors? Did you employ anything to protect your hearing? Was he moving? Had the Decker turned the lights off of the building? Had the mage already checked for Astral security?

Also, the thingamajig ammunition (Raufoss MultiPurpose) you are referring to does not operate on the same shaped-charge principle as the explosive ammo in Shadowrun does.

I think it'd be good for both of us to stop discussing this though. My opinion is that with the return of magic and the technological advancements in the SR universe combined with the fact that it's supposed to be an RPG, I find little value in discussing the finer points of weaponry and firearms in the real world. Sure, the laws of thermodynamics etc. apply. But actual weapon experience isn't going to do much good. Unless it is explicitly requested. Like it was. Because then it will turn into an argument between rule of cool versus real gun experience, usually with people with gun experience also arguing between themselves.

Anyway, on a more serious note... I'd like the question about electric ammunition and electrically sensitive explosives answered? Or what about casting lightning bolt or such at the explosive? Are there spells that could blow up grenades, other than pulling the pin with magic fingers?

[Reaver]

So basically, you can stick and shock an electrically sensitive explosive to go boom.

Has anyone raised the question of using explosive ammo for detonating explosives yet? I might have missed it.

The rules my group uses, that just affects the PV and DV of weapon as normal. "KISS" method.

So your group has no objections to, say, Silencers and explosive ammo used in conjunction? Especially at short ranges?

Rules-wise it is obviously a good idea to keep it simple (which we do in our group as well), but I think the question here is more of a flavourful one for roleplaying out different situations? If the situation is something that requires electricity, explosives or whatnot and the player has a good idea for his special ammunition to come to use, why not let him try?

They have in fact. Then do double face palm as I describe the low intensity pops the EX ammo makes, thus ruining their suppressed shot being unnoticed...

[LionofPerth]

To challenge that the military would have gone to latest technology, I doubt that. If there's anything I've learned from speaking to a number of people serving, from all over the world, is that the military inevitably goes towards the most reliable technology or systems that they can. It doesn't so much matter if it's tanks or vehicles, personal armour, rifles, explosives. What can do the job in the most circumstances with the least amount of difficult. I would suspect that they would have stayed with, on a whole, basic technology and systems, including gyroscopic safeties, chemical fuses and the like. Simple reason, you can't hack a classic. While they have a great deal of technology, many different forms of training give the soldier the potential, ability, to act and continue acting when that technology fails. While electronic warfare plays a large part in Shadowrun warfare, battles, much the same as magic does. The basic art of soldiery would be very much the same in mind.

That hasn't changed much in a while and unless something even more severe than magic, dragons, returning to the world happens, that's not going to change.

The current troubles with the F-35 are proof that design by council works in Russia (RPG 7) not America (F-35).

In theory, I can't accept electrically detonated explosives. That is pure current leads to the chain reaction. In my mind, it's too unsafe, especially since lightning bolts can be thrown about in this world. To a degree, I can accept electrically fired rounds, it's because it's just an electrically induced spark to a propellant charge. Things like Metal Storm, anything with stacked projectiles uses this. I see a source of ignition and a charge. Straight current just doesn't do that for me.

As for EX ammo and explosives, depends on the form, the more stable, I'd lean to no, the less stable, put it to the die, you might be lucky. That's my version of simple, though I try to be consistent with, once I've given a ruling.

I suppose at the end of the day, this thread has been about the type of game I want to run, which I would describe is on the hard side of Hollywood realism. Perhaps even more akin to a simulation than even that.

[Sendaz]

There is a tiny difference between electric detonator and electronic detonators at least in mining use.

Electric detonator blow as soon as the appropriate current and impulse is applied while electronic detonators incorporate more electronic components allowing for longer delays and tighter control of final ignition as well as better protecting against premature detonation from potential leakage, shorts, and electromagnetic sensitivity.

Would this stand up to a lightning bolt spell?  probably not, but might be able to resist a S&S round though I would not want to be the mook field testing this.

[JimmyCrisis]

C12 is an unknown; if it is anything like C4 it is, again, mostly RDX (80-90% if my memory serves me right). Modern grenades use Comp B, which is as previously mentioned a 60/40 (roughly) mix of RDX and TNT.

RDX was discovered around 1900, and saw widespread use in WWII and all the way up until modern times, as it forms the basis of most military explosives (Composition B, Semtex, C-4).

Nitroglycerin is highly unstable in it's raw, liquid state, and is considered a primary explosive, unlike TNT and RDX.

The part about electrical detonators in SR5 Run & Gun changes everything from a setting perspective; this is technology we don't have today.

In essence, then, it'll have to be up to the GM, as always, because we don't know enough about C12 and electrical detonators (that do not contain any explosives) to make a real world comparison.

I will say that I think it is highly doubtful that the militaries of the world would have switched wholesale; as for the OP's question, you'd have to decide for yourself if this kind of intimate explosives knowledge is something the player character possesses, after you decide if the grenade he's targeting is using a primary explosive or electrical fuse.

I think my biggest issue with C12 being electrically sensitive is that there is no real world equivalent whatsoever for this; the only explosives that can be triggered by electricity are primary class explosives, and they are all unstable in other ways as well. Chalk this one up to "science!", I guess.

In any case, now that my point has finally gotten across, my work here is done

Definitely agreed.

To challenge that the military would have gone to latest technology, I doubt that. If there's anything I've learned from speaking to a number of people serving, from all over the world, is that the military inevitably goes towards the most reliable technology or systems that they can. It doesn't so much matter if it's tanks or vehicles, personal armour, rifles, explosives. What can do the job in the most circumstances with the least amount of difficult. I would suspect that they would have stayed with, on a whole, basic technology and systems, including gyroscopic safeties, chemical fuses and the like. Simple reason, you can't hack a classic. While they have a great deal of technology, many different forms of training give the soldier the potential, ability, to act and continue acting when that technology fails. While electronic warfare plays a large part in Shadowrun warfare, battles, much the same as magic does. The basic art of soldiery would be very much the same in mind.

That hasn't changed much in a while and unless something even more severe than magic, dragons, returning to the world happens, that's not going to change.

One of the earliest and most consistent themes of cyberpunk is technology running amok.  For one, you don't have "a" military, there exists dozens of corporations capable of fielding their own militaries, each of which have their own political structure and methodologies.  More than that, it's the corporations that produce the weapons on today's battlefields, not DARPA led committees or research grants.  So, the question is not "what requirements does the UCAS have of modern weapons" but "what does Ares sell to the world's armies?"  Individual countries take a back seat.  It's the corporations that fight wars and run nations, and it's their R&D departments and factories churning out the weapons.

That being said, feel free to ignore any tropes or themes that rub you the wrong way.  It's your game after all.

In theory, I can't accept electrically detonated explosives. That is pure current leads to the chain reaction. In my mind, it's too unsafe, especially since lightning bolts can be thrown about in this world. To a degree, I can accept electrically fired rounds, it's because it's just an electrically induced spark to a propellant charge. Things like Metal Storm, anything with stacked projectiles uses this. I see a source of ignition and a charge. Straight current just doesn't do that for me.

I totally understand that.  Having no particular care one way or another, I don't mind electrically detonated explosives.  It's a magic trick of science, to be sure, but we've seen plenty of those in our lifetime.  It would be nice if someone had bothered to explain how that's supposed to work.  In most sci-fi novels, they at least do the courtesy of showing what goes into the new magical gadgetry.  Again, cyberpunk.

[Reaver]

Two things high, raw current produces electrically,  high heat, high pressure.

Take your pick for pick for setting off the goods...

[martinchaen]

Did you fire this ammunition with a silencer on the weapon? Was the weapon a pistol? Was your target ballistic gelatin (or a human) wearing impact-resistant armour? Were you indoors? Did you employ anything to protect your hearing? Was he moving? Had the Decker turned the lights off of the building? Had the mage already checked for Astral security?

No. No. No. No. Yes. No. Uuuh? Say what?

You do realize that 12.7mm ammunition is .50 cal, right?

Also, the thingamajig ammunition (Raufoss MultiPurpose) you are referring to does not operate on the same shaped-charge principle as the explosive ammo in Shadowrun does.

As far as I can tell, yes it does. The EX rounds described in Arsenal are precisely like MultiPurpose rounds (or HEIAP, if you will), in that the round has an incendiary charge that ignites when it hits the target, which in turn triggers the detonation of the HE charge, essentially blasting a path for the penetrator core of the round. If you have insight into how SR EX rounds differ from this methodology, I'd like to hear it.

I think it'd be good for both of us to stop discussing this though. My opinion is that with the return of magic and the technological advancements in the SR universe combined with the fact that it's supposed to be an RPG, I find little value in discussing the finer points of weaponry and firearms in the real world. Sure, the laws of thermodynamics etc. apply. But actual weapon experience isn't going to do much good. Unless it is explicitly requested. Like it was. Because then it will turn into an argument between rule of cool versus real gun experience, usually with people with gun experience also arguing between themselves.

Like I said, I'm providing my opinion based on the information available to me. You can choose to handwave whatever you want for your table, of course, but in discussions where a comparison to the real world is asked for you might want to moderate your dislike for said comparisons.

Anyway, on a more serious note... I'd like the question about electric ammunition and electrically sensitive explosives answered? Or what about casting lightning bolt or such at the explosive? Are there spells that could blow up grenades, other than pulling the pin with magic fingers?

Unknown; modern day explosives that are electrically sensitive (primary explosives) are sensitive to other environmental factors (such as heat and shock) as well, so it's certainly plausible. Since we have no modern day equivalent of C12 (which is apparently stable with regards to heat and shock but not electricity), no comparison can be made.

I would say it depends on two things; a) can stick-n-shock ammo penetrate a steel case (in the case of grenades) and still deliver it's charge, and b) just how electrically sensitive is the explosive. I'd certainly think it plausible that electricity attacks (stick-n-shock, elemental spells, a shock glove...) could set of electrically sensitive explosives if a fuse can be made that triggers the explosive with electricity alone.

How? I have no fraggin clue...

[Leevizer]

Well, then the rules for EX are different when compared to what they have in the SR5 main rulebook:

Explosive rounds: These slugs carry a shaped-charge explosive, designed to explode and fragment on impact.