[Teknodragon]

Our regular group has an Adept gunslinger with the Adrenaline Surge positive quality (Runner's Companion, p. 96). The group has noticed an increasing issue as character karma has gone up-- with the 'I go first,' combat ends usually after the gunslinger's action, on the first pass. The 'I go first, combat is over' character at a table makes combat not-fun for anyone else at the table who does not have the quality. While the 15bp cost is steep, it is seriously unbalancing in the long run.

Given my experience, I wanted to see if others have had similar troubles with this quality--I'm wanting to request adding it to the Banned Qualities List, but do not know if there is enough of a widespread issue like the mind-reading and -controlling spells are.

(Seriously... if the character shows up at the Johnson Meet at a mission, mine will about-face and walk out the door, as that's what I as a player will do. Same with any other character that demonstrates the quality. That frustrated and angry/upset about it.)

[Onion Man]

What the devil are you going up against if Adrenaline surge on a gun ad is ending your combats in one pass for one character?

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

At a guess, the gunslinger adept has been tweaked out pretty well (from the archetype) so he has a higher Pistols dice pool.  Then put him with a pair of Ruger Thunderbolts and APDS ammo (or EX-EX, if he's a starting character).  Then he's throwing out as many as four narrow bursts on his first pass.  For APDS ammo, that's base damage 7P, AP -5 for a narrow burst.  (For EX-EX, it's 8P, AP -2 for a burst.)  Just remember the recoil for those bursts.

Also remember that if he's shooting four times, that's twice with two weapons, and he has to split his dice pool between the weapons (SR4A, 150).  Even so, you're probably looking at someone who's splitting a 20-dice pool.  And remember DP modifiers come after the split.  So, for example, if he's shooting each burst at a different target, that's 4 targets, so he takes the multiple targets modifier (SR4A, 152).  That's -2 for the second target, -4 for the third, and -6 for the fourth.  Also remember the full ramifications of using two weapons (SR4a, 150):  Lose any smartlink or laser sight bonus, and recoil from either weapon affects the other.  My guess is that some of these modifiers aren't being applied.

Gunslinger adepts are supposed to be deadly, but they're not reliable for tougher minions or multiple harder targets.  If this is a character playing in Missions (which, given the thread location, he is), the GM should be using the Pushing the Envelope section...there's plenty of time left in the time slot if the adept is ending the combat in one IP.  If this is a regular game (and you say it is), talk with the GM about it.

All that being said:

If this character really wants to go first, there is a cheaper way than spending 15 BP for Adrenaline Surge.  All one really has to do is spend a point of Edge to go first (SR4A, 74).  If the gunslinger adept at your table is breaking combats, there's an underlying imbalance that goes beyond the Adrenaline Surge quality.

[Wasabi]

If my sammie is grouped with a runner who drops folks shooting at me in one pass my character would be motivated to keep him around, but I can certainly see how it would be frustrating to players that they could not participate as fully in a combat. It doesn't allow anything spending Edge to go first doesn't do -- it just makes it so the Edge isn't required on the first pass of each combat. Its extremely useful and IMO worth 30 karma to pick up after chargen, but to answer your question on my own expereiences: I have purchased Adrenaline Surge or started spending Edge to go first every combat because going first is an awfully big deal in a lethal system like Shadowrun and the folks around me started doing it.

Should it be banned? I dont think so. I also don't think APDS sniper rifle ammo or Stun Bolt or Blackhammer with Psychotropic program option should be banned.... the game just has some elements that are really useful.

As a softer fix than a banhammer or hurt feelings I don't think it unreasonable to ask your Adrenaline Surging sammie friend to do something like suppressive fire pass one so you too can enjoy taking down some bad guys. That way he still gets mileage from his positive quality and you still get the satisfaction of blasting some baddies. Raising the TR can help as well. That way when he goes in and drops half the baddies pass 1 you can hear an audible 'Ka-CHING!' as the mission reward is improved by the higher difficulty. :-)

'Run safe...

Wasabi

[Wasabi]

I just had a second thought that applies to Missions authors: TR6 encounters might should include some opponents with this quality.

[DWC]

A few things:

1) There no more table ratings.  They were removed for Season 4.

2) Any combat that you can end with 4 bursts of mediocre pistol fire was a waste of everyone's time anyway.

3) Given how little combat Missions generally has, a Mage who spends a point of edge to drop a massive stunball tends to be more effective at ending combat quickly.

4) This just makes a stronger case for versatility. When you run into someone who outshines you in combat, use it as a chance to showcase something else that your character is good at.

5) When you look around and notice that you're "that guy who goes first all the time" find a reason not to.

Edit: typo

[wylie]

I agree there is something beyond the quality in question.
 
I got a physad who usually goes first, using shock frills. yes, she can drop a foe in one shot. but her thing is melee.

on dice pools, there is a cap of 20 dice, after modifers. even if you are taking one shot with 22 dice pool, you can only roll 20 dice. that same pool can be split down to 11 dice if firing 2 weapons, or doing 2 short bursts. 2 short bursts from 2 weapons, should cut that pool down to 6 dice/ 5 dice, 6 dice/ 5 dice, if spliting evenly. I have not found where it say split the pool down the middle. if so please, let me know.

not worrying about recoil, and other mods, how is the guy ending combat so fast rolling 6 dice? is he rolling all 6s almost everytime? on average, he should be getting 3 succeess each roll. How is it the mooks/ foes are not rolling 3 successes to dodge?

Sorry, I am just trying to figure out what the gunslinger is doing different, or how he is being so lucky?

[UmaroVI]

Adrenaline Surge is not as good as you think it is in missions, because as mentioned, Edge can also let you go first, and missions rarely have more than 1 fight of serious difficulty. Also, if the gun adept is ending the fight in 1 pass, it wasn't a hard fight in the first place. If this is a problem, ask the GM to push the envelope on the combats so they're not over so quickly - I'm sure most GMs would be happy to oblige you.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

on dice pools, there is a cap of 20 dice, after modifers. even if you are taking one shot with 22 dice pool, you can only roll 20 dice. that same pool can be split down to 11 dice if firing 2 weapons, or doing 2 short bursts. 2 short bursts from 2 weapons, should cut that pool down to 6 dice/ 5 dice, 6 dice/ 5 dice, if spliting evenly. I have not found where it say split the pool down the middle. if so please, let me know.

The dice pool cap is either 20 or 2 x (natural attribute + skill), whichever is higher.  Normally, this doesn't make a difference, but if you have, say, an elf gunslinger adept with Agility 7 and Pistols 6 before enhancements and powers, he has a cap of 26, not 20.  It's a little extreme, but that's where dice pools can go.  And that's before qualities that raise the natural attribute and skill caps.

[DWC]

on dice pools, there is a cap of 20 dice, after modifers. even if you are taking one shot with 22 dice pool, you can only roll 20 dice. that same pool can be split down to 11 dice if firing 2 weapons, or doing 2 short bursts. 2 short bursts from 2 weapons, should cut that pool down to 6 dice/ 5 dice, 6 dice/ 5 dice, if spliting evenly. I have not found where it say split the pool down the middle. if so please, let me know.

The dice pool cap is either 20 or 2 x (natural attribute + skill), whichever is higher.  Normally, this doesn't make a difference, but if you have, say, an elf gunslinger adept with Agility 7 and Pistols 6 before enhancements and powers, he has a cap of 26, not 20.  It's a little extreme, but that's where dice pools can go.  And that's before qualities that raise the natural attribute and skill caps.

Even with his 7 Agility, and a 6 Pistols, he only gets an Augmented cap of 10 Agility and 6 skill, for a DP of 16.  Split that in half down to 8, and then add 2 dice of specialization and 3 dice of Improved Pistols and you get 13 for your first attack and 11 for the offhand attack of your first Simple, followed by 9 and 7 for your second Simple Action.  If you're getting consistent takedowns with a Thunderbolt and a DP of 7, you aren't fighting anything credible.

Admitedly, a Tactical Network does make this ridiculous, taking you to 17/15/13/11 for your four attacks on four targets, but that's some pretty serious pimping.  Diagnostics is a big time grey area on the rules, too.  You can't benefit from the Smartgun System, but can a Machine Sprite use Diagnostics on something like an Electronic Firing subsystem to still give you the bonus?

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

Even with his 7 Agility, and a 6 Pistols, he only gets an Augmented cap of 10 Agility and 6 skill, for a DP of 16.  Split that in half down to 8, and then add 2 dice of specialization and 3 dice of Improved Pistols and you get 13 for your first attack and 11 for the offhand attack of your first Simple, followed by 9 and 7 for your second Simple Action.  If you're getting consistent takedowns with a Thunderbolt and a DP of 7, you aren't fighting anything credible.

Admitedly, a Tactical Network does make this ridiculous, taking you to 17/15/13/11 for your four attacks on four targets, but that's some pretty serious pimping.  Diagnostics is a big time grey area on the rules, too.  You can't benefit from the Smartgun System, but can a Machine Sprite use Diagnostics on something like an Electronic Firing subsystem to still give you the bonus?

Like I said earlier, the gunslinger adept--even a moderately tricked-out one--is not reliable against multiple hard targets.  Mooks, yes, but not hard targets.  Single or maybe dual hard targets, yes...four shots at 13 (or 17) dice tend to ruin one person's day.

When GMing at Origins this year, I saw more tables pimping the Tacnet than tables going without.  But that means making sure every participant has the required number of sensor channels.

[Teknodragon]

From what I recall, the other player's character is a human adept, 5 or 6 edge, with about level 3 Increased Agility, and a skill of probably 6+spec. He adds Edge to the pool before splitting it, giving a pool well into the teens for each pistol after the split. APDS against heavy targets, S&S against what he doesn't want to kill. Oh, and he's also built up his Exotic Weapon: Laser pretty well to use a pair of Redlines. Pretty well-optimized for short-ranged combat, which... is about all that is typically encountered.

I understand the point about spending edge to go first instead.

I've also started a discussion about this with the group. As it stands, I may need to look into a new character to be useful at the table.

[Medicineman]

Even with his 7 Agility, and a 6 Pistols, he only gets an Augmented cap of 10 Agility and 6 skill, for a DP of 16.  Split that in half down to 8, and then add 2 dice of specialization and 3 dice of Improved Pistols and you get 13 for your first attack and 11 for the offhand attack of your first Simple

I don't want to Nitpick....but I think there's something wrong with the interpretation of the Rules
AGI 7, Pistols 6, Improved Pistols (Adept)+3 is a basepool of 16
that has to be split (not neccesserily even)to 8 with Specialisation (Sit Mod) added for two Pools of 10 each
why is there a degradation of 4 Dice ?
Lack of Recoil Comp ?

he who Dances Akimbo
Medicineman

[DWC]

Even with his 7 Agility, and a 6 Pistols, he only gets an Augmented cap of 10 Agility and 6 skill, for a DP of 16.  Split that in half down to 8, and then add 2 dice of specialization and 3 dice of Improved Pistols and you get 13 for your first attack and 11 for the offhand attack of your first Simple

I don't want to Nitpick....but I think there's something wrong with the interpretation of the Rules
AGI 7, Pistols 6, Improved Pistols (Adept)+3 is a basepool of 16
that has to be split (not neccesserily even)to 8 with Specialisation (Sit Mod) added for two Pools of 10 each
why is there a degradation of 4 Dice ?
Lack of Recoil Comp ?

he who Dances Akimbo
Medicineman

The degradation is for the -2 penalty for each additional target.  Forgot that Improved Ability is a skill modifier not a Dice Pool modifier.  Sucks for the adept.

Oh, and anyone who's afraid of laser pistols hasn't brought enough thermal smoke grenades.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

From what I recall, the other player's character is a human adept, 5 or 6 edge, with about level 3 Increased Agility, and a skill of probably 6+spec. He adds Edge to the pool before splitting it, giving a pool well into the teens for each pistol after the split. APDS against heavy targets, S&S against what he doesn't want to kill. Oh, and he's also built up his Exotic Weapon: Laser pretty well to use a pair of Redlines. Pretty well-optimized for short-ranged combat, which... is about all that is typically encountered.

I think he might be getting a little too much mileage out of his Edge expenditure.

Spending Edge (SR4A, 74):

You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again.

The good news (for him) is that the Edge dice aren't split.  The bad news (for him) is that the Edge dice are applied only to one shot, since the Edge expenditure applies only to one test.  Even though he's combining two shots into a Single Action, it's still two tests (specifically, two Opposed Tests) with the modified pool.  That also means that if he's spending only one Edge, he's only exploding sixes on one shot.  If he wants the exploding sixes on all four shots, he has to spend four Edge (one per shot).

And he's probably not as optimized as he could be, if he's using the Increased Physical Attribute power instead of Muscle Toner bioware for Agility.  He could have up to 4 levels of Muscle Toner for 0.2 Essence per level, instead of the power that's 0.75/level (or 1.5/level above his natural max).  But that's probably a discussion for another thread.