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Game Balance

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halflingmage

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« Reply #30 on: <02-22-15/0242:17> »
30 dice is not that ridiculous a soak monster if kitted up properly.  As others have said, let him be really tough if that is his character's specialty.  Some ways to make him feel his mortality other than a trio of grenade launchers-

1-Indirect spells, especially ones that target willpower.
2-High force spirits.
3-Punch him in the girlfriend rather than in the face.  People have vulnerable points in their lives.
4-Drugs and toxins.
5-Shoot someone else for a while.  If he is super tanky a savvy enemy might try to take out the soft targets first. 
6-Control thoughts with an order to touch the mage/decker/medic in inappropriate places, preferably with a katana
7-Social Scenes
8-Four grenade launchers
9-Industrial wood chippers.  If you ever see one in game call it a day and bug out.
10-Six letter word, starts with d, ends with n, the middle part sounds like panic and running.




Lighthouse

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« Reply #31 on: <02-22-15/1203:10> »
Spooky I am curious about your run and would like to read it.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #32 on: <02-22-15/1624:06> »
Hey Lighthouse, Glyph summed up the whole of things really well.  If you'd like some examples of runs that I've done, I can send you some documents.  They're written so that I can keep track of the things in my head, so they may not read easily.  But if they can help you out, I'll send them your way.

A LOT of times I have to go off-script with my adventures.  I've had to learn how to steer the ship back on course in order to resolve things sometimes, but most of the time the team ends up where I want them to end up anyway (even though they went offroading through some uncharted terrain to get there).
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Lighthouse

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« Reply #33 on: <02-22-15/1630:36> »
Cool. What medium would you prefer to send them in?
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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #34 on: <02-22-15/1710:49> »
My current runner is a combat/b&e adept, but no social skills at all. The group and DM is ok with that and social situations are generally highly entertaining. This is usually do to my character making an ass of himself (unless he is buying beer for everyone). Granted our group is atypical, and our DM is running with that.

As far as dealing with your armored character, use the double tap called shot with a sniper rifle and adps, he/she will loose around near 18 points of armor with the right weapon. Again, will a pool of 9 for melee (didn't post agility of cyber arm) little will be hit in melee. Or challenge the character outside of combat, that will work as well.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

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Mr. Black

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« Reply #35 on: <02-22-15/1836:11> »
Fear. I find Fear is always the great equalizer. Whether it is a Spirit or a Barghest, I have lost track of the number of times a drek-hard Sammie has taken off and run down the street literally crapping his pants (or stood there crying and crapping their pants). It doesn't kill the rest of the party, and it doesn't necessarily kill the victim(unless they are trapped in a dead end!) It only takes a single failed Opposed Test to work. And even if it doesn't work, it drains Edge and ramps up the anxiety.

Agonar

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« Reply #36 on: <02-22-15/2346:05> »
I've been running a game now for about a year and a half now, and challenging the group really isn't that important of a thing.  Make the game fun, entertaining, and give different people their chances to shine.  I've learned in that time that some of the "easy" encounters will nearly wipe your group, and some of the "tough" encounters get rolled over like they are nothing.  If the group comes up with an idea that you didn't think of, then cool.  They are thinking about the game, and trying to solve problems.  Sometimes your players will engage in paranoid conjecture, and their ideas will turn out to be much better than what you had planned.  Take the ball and roll with it.

Now, for practical things.  If the targets consist of 4-5 people, and one of them is armored up so much that I don't think my shot will hurt him, then I am not shooting at him.  Pick a softer target.  NPCs don't have to be stupid.  They don't have to waste shots shooting at the thing they cannot hurt, shoot the things they can hurt.  As mentioned before, there is no "aggro" mechanic forcing enemies to stupidly waste shots on the most armored target in the field.  The tank has very high damage resistance, but enemies should realize that real soon (if not visibly obvious, then it's obvious after the first Barrett round doesn't drop the target) and react accordingly.

Falling Damage.  Levitate Spells can be resisted, but if a mage levitates a heavily armored target, and floats him 20 meters into the air before dismissing, 20P -4AP is going to leave a mark

Shoot the air tank, then have a spirit of Air engulf the target.  They can resist the damage without armor as they begin suffocating.

Environmental effects.  Surround the tank with smoke grenades to reduce their offensive capability, and then just ignore them.  Tanks can only tank, when someone is giving them something to tank.  Like above, if the NPCs focus on softer targets and leave the tank alone with diminished offensive capability, then the bad guys are succeeding.

Again, I will agree with others.  Take the group out of combat.  Maybe they are being interviewed by a Johnson or contact, and he doesn't want the face doing all the talking.  Maybe he wants to interact with each of the PCs directly, or separately.  Have situations where multiple people need to socially engage in targets simultaneously.  Imagine if the group is caught sneaking through some place and the guards wonder why the others are being so quiet.  They should speak for themselves and answer the questions.

Looking at other posts here, it seems that halflingmage has covered pretty much most of the important parts.  I specially like the punch him in the girlfriend (Gamer's Tavern? Or was that Fear the Boot? I forget).  When the villains didn't have kryptonite, going after innocent bystanders sure did get to Superman.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #37 on: <02-23-15/0450:35> »
See my opinion here.

For the GM: Balance is team vs. opposition, and the opposition needn't kill to be effective.  Apply pressure in ways that do not allow him to use Body and Armor to resist.

For the player: make sure your character cares for something besides money, armor, and guns.  If you want to help your GM, give him levers to use - then allow him to use them.
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Leevizer

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« Reply #38 on: <02-23-15/0647:15> »
He didn't take damage because he edged the roll, so why are people talking so much about this?

Hell, we have a goddamn Troll wearing heavy mil-spec in our group and he gets regularly brought down by concentrated short bursts of APDS fire. They usually start with a low pool for dodging and with bursts, they'll keep taking hits in time and time again until their stun track fills. And in combat, it doesn't really matter in the short-term if it's stun or Physical which got filled, chummer. Another viable option would be to shoot at the other characters, too.

If your runners beat up the opposition, you need to step up your opposition. Build a group of Shadowrunners that have equal karma and throw them against your players. Also, if they're corp-controlled, let them have all that nice Alphaware cyber and really big guns. Have their Rigger pilot an attack helicopter. Just -don't- overdo it. Either give the players opponents they can actually defeat (an attack helicopter, for example needs atleast two rockets or a lot of APDS from a sniper- or assault rifle). Alternatively, make it -obvious- for the players that they have a way of escape which they will take when they finally realize that "oh drek, we're screwed". Or give them enough hints so they realize they'll get killed if they fight, then make the combat about pursuit and fending them off instead of killing all the antagonists?

Then again, letting the player soak up small-arms fire like it was nothing is letting him do "his thing" and letting him shine, so make sure you allow atleast a degree of that, too.

Lighthouse

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« Reply #39 on: <02-23-15/1232:12> »
Thanks Wyrm. Your statement about game balance makes a ton of sense. And thanks to everyone else. I have a lot of planning to do. Rubs hands together while laughing manaically.
"Fish gotta swim You know what I'm sayin." Omar

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #40 on: <02-23-15/1345:03> »
Best of luck! May your Runners be challenge without a TPK.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

ikarinokami

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« Reply #41 on: <02-23-15/2328:57> »
30 dice is not a lot.

I view shadowrun as a team of specialist working as one, not a bunch of well rounded guys. Each person has his role on the team and the job they excel at. the creation mechanics support this paradigm, the game mechanically hurts you for diversifying.

and seriously you don't need high power. you can use call shots like (double tap), magic like nerve strike, ambushes, hand to hand combat (sweep/trip/subdue) it is very easy to challenge even the strongest shadow run character with just tactical options they give you in the books, without needing to go all nuclear.
« Last Edit: <02-24-15/0750:20> by ikarinokami »

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #42 on: <02-24-15/0002:56> »
Nerve Strike is a good one...

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #43 on: <02-24-15/0936:34> »
The bigger reason he survived that shot with so little damage was edge. But no a soak pool of 30 is not super high. My current runner is at 25-27 depending on what kind of main armor I am wearing. Granted, I am near my encumbrance limited, but he is by no means a tank. A tank Samie can hit into the ~40 if done right at character generation.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Kincaid

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« Reply #44 on: <02-24-15/0943:34> »
If a players builds his character to absorb tons of damage (30 dice is good, but not insane), then give him opportunities to do exactly that--it's fun to shine the spotlight on players and let them show off from time to time.  If you're looking for a way to challenge the character, use Reduce Attribute (Charisma) and a Mystic Adept to threaten him with a coma.  Playing to a character's strengths is great, but you risk escalation to the point that other characters who don't have nearly the same number of soak dice find themselves up against opposition using alphas with APDS ammo.
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