[Zilfer]

"Dice pool 6. Reach 2.   trading dice gets you two hits."
Wrong. Buying hits is 4-1, not 3-1. That is just the average roll.

"Dodge pool 6. So 1 to dodge."
4 dice remain, so 1.3 dodge.

"Urban explorer armor. Now Urban explorer is 6/6, effectively 6/2 against the whip.  That means he has a total of 5 dice for a soak roll.  That still leaves 4P that will get through." 
Except that it is 1.6 soaked. the final damage averages at 8 by all of the above.

"At 13 you are dead, no ifs ands or buts."
I laughed. Average joe can take 10 plus three Over and be alive. The 14th is a kill. Cyberarms add more health, too.

Anyway, the whip's biggest advantage IS the AP, folks. -3 AP is > than (NOT =) 1 DV, as it also helps negate Physical to stun rules of armor.

Hey I actually didn't even think about that!

[Preacher]

Anyway, the whip's biggest advantage IS the AP, folks. -3 AP is > than (NOT =) 1 DV, as it also helps negate Physical to stun rules of armor.

Which it doesn't always do, and it's just as likely not to count in full when going up against lightly armored opponents.

[ARC]

"Dice pool 6. Reach 2.   trading dice gets you two hits."
Wrong. Buying hits is 4-1, not 3-1. That is just the average roll.

"Dodge pool 6. So 1 to dodge."
4 dice remain, so 1.3 dodge.

"Urban explorer armor. Now Urban explorer is 6/6, effectively 6/2 against the whip.  That means he has a total of 5 dice for a soak roll.  That still leaves 4P that will get through." 
Except that it is 1.6 soaked. the final damage averages at 8 by all of the above.

"At 13 you are dead, no ifs ands or buts."
I laughed. Average joe can take 10 plus three Over and be alive. The 14th is a kill. Cyberarms add more health, too.

Anyway, the whip's biggest advantage IS the AP, folks. -3 AP is > than (NOT =) 1 DV, as it also helps negate Physical to stun rules of armor.

Reach gives extra dice if they are within the reach of the weapon.  So if Average knife guy goes against Average whip guy, it's plus two.  So dice pool is 8.  When figuring dodge the pool was 6 and I gave it one hit.  As for the urban explorer explorer armor, 6/2 is what I said.  Add that to body 3 makes 5 dice.  Adding hits to the damage as per rules, one net hit, 9P, assuming all the dice hit (giving the defender every advantage to prove the strength of the weapon) still let 4P through.  As forthe 13 count health call, the guy is on the ground, probably with a limb off, how hard do you think it will be to coup de grace him?  I didn't add cyberlimbs into the equation, mainly because average joe doesn't get cyberlimbs unless he's been injured horribly.  Even the grunts in the books don't realy have cyberlimbs.

[CanRay]

And cybernetics are so 2050s anyhow.   

[ARC]

And cybernetics are so 2050s anyhow.   

Hey Mason is currently running a converted 2050 game.  That's where Spyder is.  Been debating on wether I should give him a whip.  He does have cyber limbs though.

[CanRay]

 

I wanna play in the '50s.  I missed out on so much...

[Phylos Fett]

I wanna play in the '50s.  I missed out on so much...

Maybe we'll get a Shadowrun: Retro Edition? 

[ARC]

I wanna play in the '50s.  I missed out on so much...

I hear ya.  I am enjoying it.  But my wife also runs a 2072 campaign alternating missions.

[Mason]

Reach gives extra dice if they are within the reach of the weapon.  So if Average knife guy goes against Average whip guy, it's plus two.  So dice pool is 8.

It applies to either the foe's dodge or to your own pool. either way, 2 dice advantage averages out to 0.6 DV.

When figuring dodge the pool was 6 and I gave it one hit. 

Except that 6 dice is ~2 hits.

As for the urban explorer explorer armor, 6/2 is what I said. Add that to body 3 makes 5 dice.

Which is what I said, too. That 5 dice is 1.6 hits.

Adding hits to the damage as per rules, one net hit, 9P, assuming all the dice hit (giving the defender every advantage to prove the strength of the weapon) still let 4P through.

When you take a complete average situation and then assume outstanding luck in one aspect, you don't get the average result. The average result of 5 dice is 1.6 successes.

As for the 13 count health call, the guy is on the ground, probably with a limb off, how hard do you think it will be to coup de grace him?  I didn't add cyberlimbs into the equation, mainly because average Joe doesn't get cyberlimbs unless he's been injured horribly.  Even the grunts in the books don't really have cyberlimbs.

Yes, but he isn't DEAD. His chummer has 9 seconds to save him, which is possible if you get shot in the back of the head and his chummer rushes to him with a high class first aid kit. It isn't average, but neither is 13P in this scenario. Luck always changes the averages.

[ARC]

On the dodge roll, the dice pool is 6.  Trading dice, at a 4 to one ratio as mentioned in the rules, it's only one hit.  At 8 dice it becomes 2 hits.

And for the soak roll, I wanted to show how bad the damage was, so I gave the highest possibe hits.  Which would be 5.  It's not always going to be the case, but it does show how vicious it is.

Yeah, the extra point does mean life or death.  I concede that point.  I am undercutting the survivability of the victim.

The reason I didn't use the actual averages, was because the rules give an easy out.  The 4-1 rule.  Besides, it makes even numbers, and makes it easier to work the numbers in this case.

Yes, I will admit the 13P in't likely to happen, neither is the 4P.  But it will be in between the 2.  Using the average damage would be between 6 and 7.  Still two hits at that would be just as bad if not worse.

[Mason]

You will find that the rolled averages matter more than the traded hits, as people do not trade hits on a dice pool of 8 when someone is slicing them at them with a monowhip.

[ARC]

This is true, but along those same lines, the guy dodging would probably use edge on either the dodge or soak roll.  It was skewed, but I was skewing it evenly so that it would be a fair representation.

[Mason]

This is true, but along those same lines, the guy dodging would probably use edge on either the dodge or soak roll.  It was skewed, but I was skewing it evenly so that it would be a fair representation.

I was using ONLY averages, without extraneous modifiers, but I shall agree to disagree.

[ARC]

I wasn't really disagreeing.  I was just explaining my numbers.  Since using averages leaves decimals, and decimals aren't useable for the rules.  Hence the way I worked the problem.  Averages are great for when you work out for yourself.  But remember there are outliers in every population.  Sometimes there is going to be a lot of 6s sometimes there will be a lot of 1s.  That's why I just went with the standard ratio.  Yes it's skewed.  I understand that.  I agree.  I was just giving even footing.

[Chaemera]

I wasn't really disagreeing.  I was just explaining my numbers.  Since using averages leaves decimals, and decimals aren't useable for the rules.  Hence the way I worked the problem.  Averages are great for when you work out for yourself.  But remember there are outliers in every population.  Sometimes there is going to be a lot of 6s sometimes there will be a lot of 1s.  That's why I just went with the standard ratio.  Yes it's skewed.  I understand that.  I agree.  I was just giving even footing.

The lazy answer is to round all decimals up, if you do it to both sides, you preserve enough balance and still get numbers that are more representative of actual die rolls (and you can wave off the people who are insisting on average numbers a lot more easily).

Also, since the comparison to Troll with Claymore has come up a few times, how come no one has pointed to the BP cost of Troll with Claymore vs Human with Monowhip. After all, doesn't cost of build factor into whether or not something is more powerful? Of course, none of that argument resolves the "no more effective than a gun with good ammo" argument of over-all in-game power. The troll, though more versatile, costs 97 BP more than a human with a monowhip (assuming maxed strength, agility, weapon with specialization for the troll and max agility, weapon skill for human). That's 97 BP the human can go invest in things that make him more powerful outside of melee combat (or further improving his melee combat with martial arts maneuvers and various things that let him get a bigger die pool). For that 97 extra BP, Troll gets an extra die on the attack, an extra point of reach, and an extra point of DV.