[CanRay]

You can insulate against Electricity.  You can't get protection against monowire, IIRC.

[Preacher]

Yes you can.  It's called armor.  Hence the monofilament whip having an AP rating to begin with.  And a damage code instead of "instant death and dismemberment" for a damage value.

[ARC]

Every other melee weapon the damage is based off of Strength.  Not the Monofilament Whip.  The AP is scary how many melee weapons have that high an AP?  And actually if you read the fluff for Shadowrun, yeah it does.  There is nothing scarier in the fluff than the whip.

You should go re-read it yourself.  Even if you glitch, you only do the base damage code to yourself.  Nothing is automatically severed.  And every melee stun weapon (gloves, batons, etc.) have a higher AP of -half, with the AZ-150 being 7S with electrical damage to boot..  Not that AP is the end-all be-all stat you seem to be making it out to be.

And, yet again, I never said the monofilament whip wasn't a strong weapon.  It's just not this allegedly overpowered and unstoppable weapon some people in this thread are making it out to be, yourself included.  It's a great choice for anyone with a low Strength score, but that's about it.  It's like ranting on about the aforementioned Ruger Super Warhawk loaded with armor piercing rounds being mindbogglingly overpowered when you compare it to a Streetline Special with regular rounds  That doesn't make the Ruger overpowered.  At best, it means hold-out pistols need some loving.  This is true with melee weapons, too.

And, also again, a guy wielding a survival knife with a dice pool of 20 is going to stomp all over a guy wielding a monofilament whip with a dice pool of 8 nearly every time.  Just like a guy with a monofilament whip with a dice pool of 20 is going to ruin the day of a guy with a survival knife and a dice pool of 8 nearly every time.  Dice pools > weapon stats, especially in melee.

I'm not saying that the larger dice pool doesn't come out on top.  I'm saying that I has a huge advantage.  For instance, let's hash the numbers, average human stats and average skills of 3 so on that it's a 6 for a dice pool.  On top of that there is a reach of 2.  So rolling you need four 1's to glitch,  and trading dice gets you two hits.  So that being said, just buying two hits, has the possibility of doing 10 damage, now that's a lot of damage.  Unfortunately again using completely average stats of 3 for attributes and skills assuming your average joe knows dodge, that's a dice pool of 6.  So 3 1's for a glitch and trading dice gives you ...1?  Crap that means joe got hit for 9P.  Now, average body of three, could soak up to 3, on top of that your average wageslave isn't going to have that much armor.  But just for instance we'll give him urban explorer armor, the most common in the game.  Now Urban explorer is 6/6, effectively 6/2 against the whip.  That means he has a total of 5 dice for a soak roll.  That still leaves 4P that will get through.  That's minus 1 on all subsequent rolls.  If he fails completely, that's 9P.  Almost "dead" for this purpose, and at a -3 on all rolls.  If he glitches, possible severing, and if he critically glitches, as a standby rule, I feel 3 extra damage is fair because well, you just got jacked up.  At 13 you are dead, no ifs ands or buts.  That example doesn't even calculate edge into it.  And if you go full dodge, you loose your attempt to counter attack, so eventually somone is going to have a bad day.  And adding more armor is an advantage but it is still a scary weapon.

[Mason]

That's the gist, but check your numbers and damage=death amounts.

[Preacher]

Yes, and a single bullet from a guy ten meters away renders your whip wielder completely inept.  And dead, using the sorry stats you're using to "prove" how overpowered the whip is.

But, yet again, the monofilament whip is there mostly as a counter to the trolls in the game.  Let's use an actual example of someone who matters, rather than the disposable trash combatants you're using.  Like, say, a troll with softcapped Strength (10) for starters.  Give him a claymore.  His melee weapon now has a Reach of 3, a damage value of 9P, and armor penetration of -2.  Considering that a damage value of 1 is equal to ~-3 AP, that's practically identical to the stats of a monowhip.  And that's just from a soft-capped troll, or augmented ork or dwarf.  Heck, a fully augmented human or elf is just one DV point lower.  Give it to a fully buffed out troll and you have a DV of, what, 12P?

So why aren't you raging on about how overpowered claymores are?  Or no-dachi?  Or vibro-swords?  Or any other weapon with similar stats?  Why is the monofilament (a word that is not synonymous with monomolecular, by the way) whip so mindboggling wretched compared to those in the hands of someone who matters?  Simply because Joe Normal can use it against Donut Eating Mall Guard to good effect?  Well, he could do the same thing with a submachine gun, too.  So what?

Nevermind that the real problem is the sorry stats melee weapons have in general.  The STR/2 bit is a completely broken and underpowered mechanic in most cases, not a whip that has stats on par with a good firearm loaded with quality rounds.

[Mason]

His example WAS someone who actually matters, actually. Trolls with hard capped Strength of 10 are not exactly common, and most people using a monowhip to kill someone aren't using them on troll terrors. BTW, Strength 10 IS hardcapped, not softcapped. Finally, your tone is somewhat combative and insulting. Please avoid that.

Also, that claymore is only slightly more effective than a monowhip in the hands of an unnaturally strong troll, but a trained fighter without the unnatural strength who uses monowhips is better every time, due to high damage AND high AP. Just call a shot for the head and slice! whip wielder wins.

Now, guns will shoot a "whip"persnapper dead, dead, dead. That is quite true.

[Zilfer]

His example WAS someone who actually matters, actually. Trolls with hard capped Strength of 10 are not exactly common, and most people using a monowhip to kill someone aren't using them on troll terrors. BTW, Strength 10 IS hardcapped, not softcapped. Finally, your tone is somewhat combative and insulting. Please avoid that.

Also, that claymore is only slightly more effective than a monowhip in the hands of an unnaturally strong troll, but a trained fighter without the unnatural strength who uses monowhips is better every time, due to high damage AND high AP. Just call a shot for the head and slice! whip wielder wins.

Now, guns will shoot a "whip"persnapper dead, dead, dead. That is quite true.

Unless they lure them into close range and the NPC's aren't thinking. XD

[ARC]

Now, guns will shoot a "whip"persnapper dead, dead, dead. That is quite true.

The major point of contention is that he can't understand why the whip is so feared.  The problem is he's forgetting something, we aren't comparing the whip to a gun.  We are talking about a whip to another melee weapon.  I'm not saying that the whip is the end all be all of weapons.  A gun at range will beat a melee weapon anyday.  But that's not what is in debate.

Now in the end it's your choice on what to arm your character with, that being said, if you don't think it is worth arming your character with it, don't.  It's your choice.

BTW, Mason, I thought my numbers were sound.  Where were my calculations off?

[ARC]

Yes, and a single bullet from a guy ten meters away renders your whip wielder completely inept.  And dead, using the sorry stats you're using to "prove" how overpowered the whip is.

But, yet again, the monofilament whip is there mostly as a counter to the trolls in the game.  Let's use an actual example of someone who matters, rather than the disposable trash combatants you're using.  Like, say, a troll with softcapped Strength (10) for starters.  Give him a claymore.  His melee weapon now has a Reach of 3, a damage value of 9P, and armor penetration of -2.  Considering that a damage value of 1 is equal to ~-3 AP, that's practically identical to the stats of a monowhip.  And that's just from a soft-capped troll, or augmented ork or dwarf.  Heck, a fully augmented human or elf is just one DV point lower.  Give it to a fully buffed out troll and you have a DV of, what, 12P?

So why aren't you raging on about how overpowered claymores are?  Or no-dachi?  Or vibro-swords?  Or any other weapon with similar stats?  Why is the monofilament (a word that is not synonymous with monomolecular, by the way) whip so mindboggling wretched compared to those in the hands of someone who matters?  Simply because Joe Normal can use it against Donut Eating Mall Guard to good effect?  Well, he could do the same thing with a submachine gun, too.  So what?

Nevermind that the real problem is the sorry stats melee weapons have in general.  The STR/2 bit is a completely broken and underpowered mechanic in most cases, not a whip that has stats on par with a good firearm loaded with quality rounds.

As for me using sorry stats, I could have used an elf adept with an effective agility of 11, and a weapons skill of 10.  Which would have skewed the results even further.  Intead I went with deliberatly lower numbers to prove a point.  I didn't even throw in edge, to prove a point, with the sorry stats I used it better shows how overpowered it is.

Personally, I like the whip.  I avoid using it because it is overpowered.  The reason for my choice is because it is a character killer.  I tend to use characters that do a job professionally.  Lots of stun, leaving no dead so that I don't have people coming after them.

[Preacher]

His example WAS someone who actually matters, actually.

No.  His example was of a trash obstacle that's just there to spice up a story.  Just like any other painfully average character in the game who gets in the way of a real shadowrunner.

Also, that claymore is only slightly more effective than a monowhip in the hands of an unnaturally strong troll, but a trained fighter without the unnatural strength who uses monowhips is better every time, due to high damage AND high AP. Just call a shot for the head and slice! whip wielder wins.

Now, guns will shoot a "whip"persnapper dead, dead, dead. That is quite true.

Please go back and read the very last line of my previous post.

And, again, Armor Penetration is not this super uber wonder stat you guys keep trying to present it as.  It's feeble.  It takes an average of 3 points to have any real effect on an outcome, and that outcome is just the difference of one hit.  Also, yeah, someone wielding a monofilament whip (which, again, is neither monomolecular nor some magical vorpal weapon) can take out an enemy pretty easily.  But they can do the same thing with any number of other weapons, firearms included unless their opposition happens to be a serious -- serious -- combatant.  Who cares that Joe Blow can kill Mall Cop Guy with one shot using a monowhip?  He could do the same thing with a gun and likely any other melee weapon he chooses to use, because Mall Cop Guy is just a minor obstacle.

The monofilament whip is and always has been the equalizer for the troll melee specialist in a system that has always had a crappy melee weapon game mechanic.  Now Joe Blow with Strength 2 can do comparable damage to Jim Bob Troll and his claymore of doom. 

The major point of contention is that he can't understand why the whip is so feared.  The problem is he's forgetting something, we aren't comparing the whip to a gun.  We are talking about a whip to another melee weapon.  I'm not saying that the whip is the end all be all of weapons.  A gun at range will beat a melee weapon anyday.  But that's not what is in debate.

Actually, that's the entire debate.  Something is only "overpowered" if it's actually overpowered.  There's plenty of counters and equals to a monofilament whip out there.

[ARC]

Your right, absolutely, I concede.  Your inability to understand that the choices of "drek roadblocks that was used to spice up the game," was specifically to prove how an underpowered character can do major damage with a weapon that is rightly "feared" in the game.  I am considering this matter closed.  Hopefully you will see the error of your ways when someone plays a character in your game that uses said weapon and demolishes any sembalance of tension or drama that you have tried tirelessly to put into the story.  Debate over.

[Zilfer]

Got a question for you. When you see -2 ap you don't see a change in hits? It  take's -3 dice to take away an average of 1 net hit?

I kind of see it as a limiting factor of the possible number of hits a person does. (I usually don't go by averages because my rolls really never match averages. Most of my rolls come out above average.) Not saying it's going to kill ya but it does take out possible hits which is always a plus. XD

My next question not to feed the fire or anything, did you just say it allowed someone to do the same damage of a melee troll without having to spend all that stuff beefing up a melee? What I got out of what you said was "Joe Nobody" could do the same damage as "Trollisorious Rex."

Which means the weapon in anyone's hand is deadly, and that doesn't make it over powered when anyone can use it to deadly effect?

[Preacher]

Your right, absolutely, I concede.  Your inability to understand that the choices of "drek roadblocks that was used to spice up the game," was specifically to prove how an underpowered character can do major damage with a weapon that is rightly "feared" in the game.  I am considering this matter closed.  Hopefully you will see the error of your ways when someone plays a character in your game that uses said weapon and demolishes any sembalance of tension or drama that you have tried tirelessly to put into the story.  Debate over.

<shrugs>

You're the one who seems to have trouble understanding the point.  Someone with a monofilament whip is no more overpowered than someone of equal stats with an Ingram Smartgun, a strong troll with a claymore, a mage with an overcast stunbolt, or any other comparable weapon/attack in the game.  It only looks overpowered when compared to the crappy, underpowered stats other melee weapons have courtesy of the silly STR/2 mechanic.

When you see -2 ap you don't see a change in hits? It  take's -3 dice to take away an average of 1 net hit?

I kind of see it as a limiting factor of the possible number of hits a person does. (I usually don't go by averages because my rolls really never match averages. Most of my rolls come out above average.) Not saying it's going to kill ya but it does take out possible hits which is always a plus. XD

I see a potential for it, but nothing guaranteed on average.  +1 DV >= -3 AP in my eyes.  Which is why I brought it up in the first place.  The difference between AP -2 and AP -4 is pretty feeble compared to DV +1.  It loses even more value when you add unarmored opponents to the equation.

My next question not to feed the fire or anything, did you just say it allowed someone to do the same damage of a melee troll without having to spend all that stuff beefing up a melee? What I got out of what you said was "Joe Nobody" could do the same damage as "Trollisorious Rex."

I'm not exactly the world's greatest wordsmith, but my intent was indeed the former.  Just like a shotgun is equal in damage output whether you have a Strength of 1 or 9, so too is the monofilament whip.  And it's there specifically to let players keep up with those troll monstrosities in a game where those troll monstrosities don't really fit in but can't be removed because they're a core concept of the game.  The big difference between the two is that "Trollisorious Rex" has more options available in producing similar results, including access to weapons with more interesting stats and legality issues.

Which means the weapon in anyone's hand is deadly, and that doesn't make it over powered when anyone can use it to deadly effect?

Pretty much.

[Zilfer]

K. Just wanted to make sure I read that right.

[Mason]

"Dice pool 6. Reach 2.   trading dice gets you two hits."
Wrong. Buying hits is 4-1, not 3-1. That is just the average roll.

"Dodge pool 6. So 1 to dodge."
4 dice remain, so 1.3 dodge.

"Urban explorer armor. Now Urban explorer is 6/6, effectively 6/2 against the whip.  That means he has a total of 5 dice for a soak roll.  That still leaves 4P that will get through." 
Except that it is 1.6 soaked. the final damage averages at 8 by all of the above.

"At 13 you are dead, no ifs ands or buts."
I laughed. Average joe can take 10 plus three Over and be alive. The 14th is a kill. Cyberarms add more health, too.

Anyway, the whip's biggest advantage IS the AP, folks. -3 AP is > than (NOT =) 1 DV, as it also helps negate Physical to stun rules of armor.