Dzitbalchen wasn't a great, just a 'normal' dragon, and they CAN be brought down by people who have enough force.
But as for why people are like "Oh shit, dragons"? Dunkelzhan was LEGENDARY for his machinations, and was still screwing with the world for DECADES after his death through his will. Ryumyo is basically one of the major behind the scenes powers in the Yakuza and MCT, and everyone knows it. Lofwyr took over Saeder-Krupp and the first anyone knew about it was when he stepped in, told everyone he was the majority shareholder, and kicked the board to the curb. Ghostwalker shows up, and proceeds to kick the asses of several national militaries for days before the Draco Foundation stepped in to convince people that it would be best if they all just accepted him as overlord of Denver. Hestaby did much the same when CalFree and Tir Tairngir were fighting and got too close to Mt. Shasta. And then there's Amazonia.
Sirrurg was only brought down after an Immortal Elf helped Aztechnology complete a magitek superweapon and lost almost 1/3 of all of Aztlan and Aztechnology's combined forces ramming it down his throat. AND HE STILL WASN'T DEAD!
Lofwyr tanked a ritual magic attack in the middle of a dragon fight and still won.
And that has nothing to do with how dragons can manipulate things behind the scenes. Dragons are schemers, never forget it. They are at their LEAST dangerous when you're trying to deal with them with direct violence. It is telling that the only times anyone manages to defeat the great dragons, it is because they were using the resources of a megacorp, or they were immortal elves or fellow dragons.
Dzitbalchen wasn't a great, just a 'normal' dragon, and they CAN be brought down by people who have enough force.
But as for why people are like "Oh shit, dragons"? Dunkelzhan was LEGENDARY for his machinations, and was still screwing with the world for DECADES after his death through his will. Ryumyo is basically one of the major behind the scenes powers in the Yakuza and MCT, and everyone knows it. Lofwyr took over Saeder-Krupp and the first anyone knew about it was when he stepped in, told everyone he was the majority shareholder, and kicked the board to the curb. Ghostwalker shows up, and proceeds to kick the asses of several national militaries for days before the Draco Foundation stepped in to convince people that it would be best if they all just accepted him as overlord of Denver. Hestaby did much the same when CalFree and Tir Tairngir were fighting and got too close to Mt. Shasta. And then there's Amazonia.
Sirrurg was only brought down after an Immortal Elf helped Aztechnology complete a magitek superweapon and lost almost 1/3 of all of Aztlan and Aztechnology's combined forces ramming it down his throat. AND HE STILL WASN'T DEAD!
Lofwyr tanked a ritual magic attack in the middle of a dragon fight and still won.
And that has nothing to do with how dragons can manipulate things behind the scenes. Dragons are schemers, never forget it. They are at their LEAST dangerous when you're trying to deal with them with direct violence. It is telling that the only times anyone manages to defeat the great dragons, it is because they were using the resources of a megacorp, or they were immortal elves or fellow dragons.
Sure, but most of the stuff isn't known to the public or even runners.
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As a GM my biggest problem with including dragons in the game is that I can't possibly be clever and cunning enough to fully do them justice.
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As a GM my biggest problem with including dragons in the game is that I can't possibly be clever and cunning enough to fully do them justice.
An old trick I hang my hat on for GMing entities smarter than any human ever could be, including myself as the GM, is to not bother fully pre-statting the NPC. Whatever the players come up with, it doesn't catch the superhuman intellect by surprise and countermeasures or contingencies are retroactively in place.
Retroactively make it into a Xanatos Gambit (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit), then.
Dirty
... but I like it.
Gotta be careful with how you do that though, lest you be called on it
Is it even fair to say that Sirrug was defeated by Aztechnology? I mean their weapon put him on the ropes, but it sounds like something magical came in at that point and swooped him away while he was weakened. Didn't a council of dragons then sentence him to imprisonment or something after that? I've been reading the wiki so I might not have the full picture of the events, but it seems like Sirrug probably wasn't done fighting and the outcome probably wasn't a forgone conclusion.Sirrurg was heavily injured and cornered. He tried a big magic spell to end the battle, but Atzechnology countered with a massive blood magic ritual (I still think Harlequin had a hand in that as he needed Aztechnology troops freed up to attack Ghostwalker in Denver). If the ritual had worked correctly it would likely have killed Sirrurg, but it failed and pretty much everything in the area died or was at least knocked out. Sirrurg was as good as dead and only got rescued by a big spirit send by the other dragons which carried him away.
Also, I want to say that Lofwyr's IQ is listed as being around 300, which should be frightening for any opponent. He would have a broader and longer-term view of the machinations of the world than pretty much any other being that isn't a great dragon.
Good point about Sirrurg: He was defeated because he was too much of a pain, so they let him get his ass kicked, then ended the fight and took him for sentencing. If any dragon had decided to help him instead...Sirrurg had several adult dragons in his army. They ended up as Blue-227 advertisement.
Curse you for tempting me into a TV Tropes wormhole!
Ok, let me see if I understand you.....
It takes an ENTIRE ARMY just to WOUND a single great dragon.... and you are wondering why they are feared....
I think that alone speaks for itself...
For the same reason that Doctor Doom is a better villain than the Green Goblin. Doom has wheels within wheels, and you never know quite when something failing serves another of his purposes. The only people that can match them for intellect and planning are other immortals.Ok, let me see if I understand you.....
It takes an ENTIRE ARMY just to WOUND a single great dragon.... and you are wondering why they are feared....
I think that alone speaks for itself...
And how often does a Great Dragon come after the runners in person? About as often as the head of Aztechnology decides that you have to die, so basically never. And still, why be more afraid of a GD than Aztechnology? Aztechnology seems much more competent.
And if you go down a level why would an adult dragon be more dangerous than the local crime syndicate?
For the same reason that Doctor Doom is a better villain than the Green Goblin. Doom has wheels within wheels, and you never know quite when something failing serves another of his purposes. The only people that can match them for intellect and planning are other immortals.Ok, let me see if I understand you.....
It takes an ENTIRE ARMY just to WOUND a single great dragon.... and you are wondering why they are feared....
I think that alone speaks for itself...
And how often does a Great Dragon come after the runners in person? About as often as the head of Aztechnology decides that you have to die, so basically never. And still, why be more afraid of a GD than Aztechnology? Aztechnology seems much more competent.
And if you go down a level why would an adult dragon be more dangerous than the local crime syndicate?
Name a villain that hasn't been beaten up by Squirrel Girl, and I'll show you a villain she hasn't met. She defines 'deus ex machina'.For the same reason that Doctor Doom is a better villain than the Green Goblin. Doom has wheels within wheels, and you never know quite when something failing serves another of his purposes. The only people that can match them for intellect and planning are other immortals.Ok, let me see if I understand you.....
It takes an ENTIRE ARMY just to WOUND a single great dragon.... and you are wondering why they are feared....
I think that alone speaks for itself...
And how often does a Great Dragon come after the runners in person? About as often as the head of Aztechnology decides that you have to die, so basically never. And still, why be more afraid of a GD than Aztechnology? Aztechnology seems much more competent.
And if you go down a level why would an adult dragon be more dangerous than the local crime syndicate?
He also got beaten up by Squirrel Girl.
Thing is, most (if not all) of the examples given are 'large numbers of humanoids focusing exclusively on a specific project, at which they defeat a great dragon'. What is repeatedly not said is that those specific projects are far and away not the only iron said great dragon has in the fire -- that when the aforementioned group beats the dragon, the dragon is paying attention to three or five dozen more projects as complicated and important to it as the specific one at whch the aforemention group beats it. Want to take on the great dragon Sirrurg in combat? You'd better have massive planning, a huge number of military assets, a couple of immortal advisers in your corner, and you had damn well better achieve the element of surprise.
So sure, beating a Great can be done, with a huge amount of time, effort, dedication, money, blood, toil, sweat, and tears. But always keep in mind that you're fencing against it in just one of its projects. To completely destroy a Great Dragon?
... good luck.
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Just remember:
Be kind. Lofwyr likes his snacks with mustard, so carry as many packets as you can to your meetings....
Dragons are like that but multiplied by many times. The best plans they have are the ones where the various pieces moving about to accomplish it have no idea they're being manipulated.Who do you think helped Knight set up the Nanosecond Buyout?
As a fresh point, I'll throw a meta observation out there:
Dragons were given stats. Uber NPCs of similar power (the Bottled Demon, Harlequin, etc) are pointedly not given stats. For the express reason that statting something just invites players to try to kill them.
It might have been a better decision to have never published stats for Dragons and instead just have them do whatever they want, immune to the rules of the game.
Harlequin has stats. They do state 'Magic 30+' iirc and '30 should be plenty but feel free to increase', but he has stats.
Enh. At this point, Ixal is not looking for 'Why do dragons have this fearsome reputation,' but rather 'this is why I think dragons don't/shouldn't have fearsome reputations.' Looking for proof of his viewpoint, and decrying anything offered him. I mean, he's been offered plenty of examples as to why dragons are feared; his response is pretty much always 'but nyah!', whether that's trying to explain how dragons (adult or great) get 'beaten' all the time, disdaining their overall capacities as being like so many other things in the SR world (such as megacorporations), yadda yadda.
Ixal, you think it's 'legacy', and 'overblown', and whatever. Fine. Look at all the arguments you're making against our points -- that other things exist at their level (megacorporations), that dealing with big groups is like dealing with a dragon (organized crime, whatever) -- and, simply put, you're cutting the branch out from under yourself. What you're saying isn't incorrect; it is correct. But you keep failing to take the step necessary and go 'oh, yeah, all that 'equivalent of an organization' is resident in one individual'.
So sure: shadowrunners should stay at arm's length from corporations, megacorporations, organized crime families and syndicates, conspiracy groups, all that shite. Because any of those could do major damage to a shadowrunner, whether in the short or long term. Oh, and maybe they should stay at arm's length from dragons, because just one dragon is the equivalent of a corporation, megacorporation, organized crime family or syndicate, conspiracy group, and all that shite, and can bring all their equivalent force to bear immediately, instantly, in its current very-present state.
Look at what your argument actually is. If you don't want to admit that your argument is in favor of dragons having a serious rep, hey, whatever floats your boat; feel free to be one of those people that says black is white, fact is fake, and the reputation of an individual that can functionally ignore any counterattack while tearing apart a 30-story building with only its bare hands is overblown. Just ... you might consider keeping that to yourself, or maybe to Plan 9's conspiracy boards and the Lunatics 'R' Us chatrooms. Because any way you slice it, a dragon -- adult or Great -- is a major force to be reckoned with.
Game stats aside... a primary reason people in-universe fear dealing with dragons is because dragons aren't known (or assumed) to have metahumanity's interests at heart. Dealing with a Dragon is pretty much the Sixth World equivalent of making Deal with the Devil.
Corporations and crime cartels will betray you for simple profit. Their motives are understandable and can be reasonably anticipated. Neither is true of Dragons. Plus, they just might eat you.
Game stats aside... a primary reason people in-universe fear dealing with dragons is because dragons aren't known (or assumed) to have metahumanity's interests at heart. Dealing with a Dragon is pretty much the Sixth World equivalent of making Deal with the Devil.
Corporations and crime cartels will betray you for simple profit. Their motives are understandable and can be reasonably anticipated. Neither is true of Dragons. Plus, they just might eat you.
Thats an explanation I can accept. But then many other things, basically everything not metahuman, like spirits of just Nagas would also fall under that.
Game stats aside... a primary reason people in-universe fear dealing with dragons is because dragons aren't known (or assumed) to have metahumanity's interests at heart. Dealing with a Dragon is pretty much the Sixth World equivalent of making Deal with the Devil.
Corporations and crime cartels will betray you for simple profit. Their motives are understandable and can be reasonably anticipated. Neither is true of Dragons. Plus, they just might eat you.
Thats an explanation I can accept. But then many other things, basically everything not metahuman, like spirits of just Nagas would also fall under that.
They don't have the power (nor usually the supra-human intellect) that Dragons have. Imagine a megacorp or crime cartel that DIDN'T behave rationally (by metahuman standards). Be pretty hard to consistently work for/with them.
(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1388724363i/351451._UY475_SS475_.jpg)
I once had Shadowrun dragons explained to me thus:For being so superior dragons, especially normal ones, do get smacked around a lot.
snip...
Adults get smacked around a lot too. Then they get back up and carry on, whereas a toddler in the same situation would, if not dead or unconscious, be crying loudly for its mommy. What point are you trying to get at? That because dragons aren't effortlessly winning at everything forever, you shouldn't be afraid of them? Because remember, you're the toddler in this metaphor. It doesn't matter if a particular adult is considered a loser and a failure by his peers. It doesn't matter if he's been smacked around a lot recently. He can still mentally and physically dunk on you all day, every day. If he wants to do something to you, only another adult can stop him. And did you miss my little anecdote about Lung?
And yes, for beings which are so superior as you make them out to be, or at least cunning and dangerous enough for there to be a special warning given to shadowrunners to not deal with them I would suspect them to succeed more than they currently do.Do I really need to regurgitate all the explanations that have already been given to you? Dragons succeed all the time. They succeed in private affairs that take place in the shadows, as well as more public ones. They succeed so often that it isn't even worth mentioning most of the time. 'Man bites dog' is front page news, 'dog bites man' is third page news, and 'dog bites chew toy' isn't news at all.
It would be nice if the lore would match up, meaning that if you want to continue to use the "Never deal with a dragon" saying and have dealing with a dragon actually raise notoriety as the rules suggest, that there be an actual in game lore reason as for why dragons are so fearsome apart from nostalgia.Notoriety has nothing to do with it. Dealing with a dragon is tantamount to entering a white, unmarked van because some creepy-looking guy told you there was free candy inside; you're going to get fucked. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp.
Because in my opinion in the last few years of the metaplotNewsflash: there's more going on in the world than just the metaplot. Shadowrun is a huge, dynamic world where everyone is always up to something (multiple somethings, even), and you don't get to hear about all of it, period. In fact, you get to hear even less of it when you only pay attention to one plotline. While that one dragon whose name I cannot even be bothered to look up got screwed by the CFD saga, every other great dragon went on advancing their personal agenda and making bank. You know, business as usual.
No, I did not miss your anecdote, but instead of Lung the exact same scenario could have happened with a metahuman triad leaderLung's actions were the opposite of what you'd expect from a metahuman Triad leader. Triads are families; they are described as taking care of and standing by their own, whereas some other syndicates have no qualms about disposing of spent assets. A metahuman Triad leader would've told the crew to abandon ship or to allow themselves to be arrested without resistance, promising them good lawyers and that their families would be taken care of if they were imprisoned. Lung killed them all because they had failed him, and this is an individual "described as a reclusive and patient dragon who tends to plan and manipulate things in the shadows, slowly spreading his domain rather than taking aggressive actions." Says a lot about the whole species, doesn't it? Meanwhile, he let the two outsiders responsible for the whole mess, the two who actually tried to sabotage one of his enterprises, get away scot-free because he thought they were cool guys. If you don't understand by now why you don't want to deal with dragons.......well, sorry, but Shadowrun isn't the game for you.
Ugh Please let this tragic thread Rest in Peace.Yeah, that's on me. I spotted it, had a read through and misread the last post as being March '19. Oops. I try not to resurrect threads this old in the usual course of things.
It makes for a nice April's Fools joke though! Here I was wondering 'urk, now what' and bam, accidental necro.Ugh Please let this tragic thread Rest in Peace.Yeah, that's on me. I spotted it, had a read through and misread the last post as being March '19. Oops. I try not to resurrect threads this old in the usual course of things.
Remember, people, no resurrection possible in Shadowrun.
If your argument is "There are other threats beside dragons that people should be afraid of" then... Yeah. Yes there is. That's true. That has always been true. That would be silly to deny.
And?
This has already been explained to you multiple times, and you still just don't get it. Let's face it: we might as well all be talking to a brick wall in this thread.
Nice strawman. I would explain why the scare factor of a dragon is not those resources and minions, but rather how they would use them differently from a megacorp or other group of metahumans, but we both know that wouldn't get anywhere.