[Reaver]

My mage character can: Control Thoughts 1 guy and make him killhimself in the IP.
The sniper in our team can: Shoot twice in an IP, with DV of 10 + net hits, on a roll of at least 16 dice or so (so average 8 net hits)

Cotnrolling that one guy doesn't seem so OP anymore when the other guy easily decks 2 people an IP...

Actually.
It goes:
1:  control thoughts. <wait for next turn>
1: sniper shoots, shoots again
2: issue command to kill himself, <insert 2nd simple action>
(wait for target's turn to carry out command)
2: sniper shoots, shoots again.

Depending on how juiced up your sniper is VS your Mage VS the target of your control thoughts, the kill ratio could be 8:1 sniper!

still feel control thoughts is OP in a combat situation???

[Critias]

...

Hermectic Mage casts Manabolt at force 5
Rolls 5 Logic + 5 Spellcasting and gets 5 successes
Drain Value for Manabolt is F/2 (5/2=3)
To resist drain, Mage rolls 5 Logic + 4 Willpower (9) and only needs 3 success to resist all drain?

...

I'm wondering if I'm misunderstanding something, or do you really use logic for spellcasting tests? Or was that just a slip of the keyboard? I mean, it should be magic + spellcasting, right? Also, it might be a home rule I read about somewhere, but I'm getting an impression drain would be rounded down normally...

I figured it was just a couple typos, and worried about the Drain part of things. 

[Falconer]

Skuppy:
The optional rule for direct spell drain works perfectly fine, it means the mage needs to cast the spell twice to do the same thing because he no longer gets 'free damage' for rolling successes.   Just remember that net hits don't need to be used to increase damage and drain.  Just there are some vocal opponents to it because it encourages overcasting (which brings with it a whole slew of other problems).  The only other advice I'd give you is to make sure you use the secondary effects of elemental spells to make them worth their drain... (flamethrower putting things on fire for ongoing damage and cooking off ammunition/fuel for example).


Someone already pointed out drain is rounded down not up... just as in prior editions.  Even then though a force 5 stunbolt is not doing a lot unless the target has already been wounded by a light pistol... or somehow otherwise has stun on him.   To reliably knock someone out in a single casting you really need force 9 (3 drain)... 3 drain on 9 dice resist... works out to roughly 1 drain taken 30-40% of the time... so it adds up.  (we don't care about the average, we care about how often you fail to roll at least the drain amount because excess successes are wasted and go away and they skew the average).


All the old task specific dice pools were eliminated in favor of 'edge'.  All skills fall now into the skill plus attribute mechanic.  That's the source of your confusion... I remember the old spell pool mechanics.


And yes control thoughts and all the mental manipulations need a rethink.   They're TOO useful both in and out of combat.  How exactly does the sniper get the guard to punch in his code to open the door for you without setting off the alarm before wandering off to continue his patrol while you sneak in undetected?  Especially if you alter his memory to make him forget doing it.   Even combat wise... you assume perfect storm for a sniper... which rarely occurs (especially inside a building).

[Mirikon]

The optional rule to add to drain based on the hits for direct spells actually encourages people to overcast those spells, rather than casting them at lower levels. Especially since you can use a medkit to heal physical damage.

[Falconer]

You can use a medkit to heal stun damage as well.  As well as use stim patches to mitigate it's effects now in 4E.(they used to cause magic loss checks for awakened to stop that combo!)   Your point? 

Stun can't be magically healed.  No such limitation on medkits.


If they're casting at higher force... spell signatures and identifying the mage for retribution are much easier.  They're inflicting a lot more drain on themselves.   Just going from 3->4 drain is a big deal when you're looking at average drain off a given dice pool size.  Roughly speaking... a +1 increase in drain roughly doubles the average drain suffered by the caster!  (do a probability matrix and calculate average drain over time for say 10 drain dice on 2, 3, 4, and 5 drain).

[Mirikon]

Then compare the drain from one F10 Manabolt spell getting a single net hit for 11 damage to a F5 Manabolt spell with 5 net hits for 10 damage.

[Noble Drake]

Then compare the drain from one F10 Manabolt spell getting a single net hit for 11 damage to a F5 Manabolt spell with 5 net hits for 10 damage.

Because I feel like doing this math instead of cleaning my kitchen:

Normal Rules: Force 10 Manabolt = 5 drain; Force 5 Manabolt = 2 drain. Doubling force more than doubles the drain.

Optional net hits used drain rules: Force 10 manabolt with 1 net hit = 6 drain, Force 5 manabolt with 5 net hits = 7 drain. Doubling force reduces the drain by 1.

Using Fireball as an example:

Normal: Force 10 = 10 drain; Force 5 = 7 drain. It's not a doubling of drain, but it is a noticeable increase for casting a more powerful spell.
Hit-based: Force 10, 1 hit = 11 drain; Force 5, 5 hits = 12 drain. Again, doubling the force of the spell ends up reducing the drain.

And in both cases the lesser drain is coupled with a 1 box of damage higher result - which is important when dealing with 11 box condition monitors.

[All4BigGuns]

Then compare the drain from one F10 Manabolt spell getting a single net hit for 11 damage to a F5 Manabolt spell with 5 net hits for 10 damage.

Because I feel like doing this math instead of cleaning my kitchen:

Normal Rules: Force 10 Manabolt = 5 drain; Force 5 Manabolt = 2 drain. Doubling force more than doubles the drain.

Optional net hits used drain rules: Force 10 manabolt with 1 net hit = 6 drain, Force 5 manabolt with 5 net hits = 7 drain. Doubling force reduces the drain by 1.

Using Fireball as an example:

Normal: Force 10 = 10 drain; Force 5 = 7 drain. It's not a doubling of drain, but it is a noticeable increase for casting a more powerful spell.
Hit-based: Force 10, 1 hit = 11 drain; Force 5, 5 hits = 12 drain. Again, doubling the force of the spell ends up reducing the drain.

And in both cases the lesser drain is coupled with a 1 box of damage higher result - which is important when dealing with 11 box condition monitors.

But you can choose not to apply that net hit, which means you do 10 damage for 5 drain as opposed to 10 damage for 7 drain. I know which I'm gonna choose...be kind of a dumb choice not to choose the 5 drain one.

[DazedDante]

Im lost where people are getting this 'optional rule' about drain from. Its not optional, its in the spell descripter.

Direct Combat Spells pg 204 SR4A
...
Direct Combat spells involve channeling mana directly into a
target as destructive and damaging energies rather than generating a
damaging effect. Affecting the target’s being on this fundamental level
with raw mana requires more focus and more power than producing
basic effects; as a result every net hit used to increase the damage value
of a Direct Combat spell also increases the Drain DV of the spell by +1.

So if your casting at force 5 for 5S then yes its 2 drain, adding more hits increases damage and drain AFTER calculation.

[All4BigGuns]

Im lost where people are getting this 'optional rule' about drain from. Its not optional, its in the spell descripter.

Direct Combat Spells pg 204 SR4A
...
Direct Combat spells involve channeling mana directly into a
target as destructive and damaging energies rather than generating a
damaging effect. Affecting the target’s being on this fundamental level
with raw mana requires more focus and more power than producing
basic effects; as a result every net hit used to increase the damage value
of a Direct Combat spell also increases the Drain DV of the spell by +1.

So if your casting at force 5 for 5S then yes its 2 drain, adding more hits increases damage and drain AFTER calculation.

The SR4A PDF has it as non-optional, but this was changed in the print versions (which came after the PDF).

[Noble Drake]

But you can choose not to apply that net hit, which means you do 10 damage for 5 drain as opposed to 10 damage for 7 drain. I know which I'm gonna choose...be kind of a dumb choice not to choose the 5 drain one.

I had never considered it a possibility to not apply at least 1 net hit - without 1 net hit, normally, a spell doesn't succeed at all... I thought that was how it worked even if you used the alternate drain rule.

As for the optional/non-optional situation: Both the print version of SR4A and the most up-to-date PDF version say "as an optional rule, every net hit applied also increases the Drain DV of the spell by +1."

[All4BigGuns]

But you can choose not to apply that net hit, which means you do 10 damage for 5 drain as opposed to 10 damage for 7 drain. I know which I'm gonna choose...be kind of a dumb choice not to choose the 5 drain one.

I had never considered it a possibility to not apply at least 1 net hit - without 1 net hit, normally, a spell doesn't succeed at all... I thought that was how it worked even if you used the alternate drain rule.

As for the optional/non-optional situation: Both the print version of SR4A and the most up-to-date PDF version say "as an optional rule, every net hit applied also increases the Drain DV of the spell by +1."

Yeah, you need to have that net hit to succeed, but you can choose not to apply it to the damage. Just like you could probably choose not to apply your hits to the damage when you shoot someone, but I don't think anyone would.

[JustADude]

My mage character can: Control Thoughts 1 guy and make him killhimself in the IP.
The sniper in our team can: Shoot twice in an IP, with DV of 10 + net hits, on a roll of at least 16 dice or so (so average 8 net hits)

Cotnrolling that one guy doesn't seem so OP anymore when the other guy easily decks 2 people an IP...

Actually.
It goes:
2: sniper shoots, shoots again.

Depending on how juiced up your sniper is VS your Mage VS the target of your control thoughts, the kill ratio could be 8:1 sniper!

still feel control thoughts is OP in a combat situation???

Substitute "Mob Mind" for "Control Thoughts," though, and the dynamic changes to:

1) Mage Casts Force 11 Mob Mind, waits for next turn.
1) Sniper double-taps, drops 1-2 targets.
2) Mage issues command for all Mob Mind targets to kill themselves, performs other simple action.
-Combat Over

[Reaver]

My mage character can: Control Thoughts 1 guy and make him killhimself in the IP.
The sniper in our team can: Shoot twice in an IP, with DV of 10 + net hits, on a roll of at least 16 dice or so (so average 8 net hits)

Cotnrolling that one guy doesn't seem so OP anymore when the other guy easily decks 2 people an IP...

Actually.
It goes:
2: sniper shoots, shoots again.

Depending on how juiced up your sniper is VS your Mage VS the target of your control thoughts, the kill ratio could be 8:1 sniper!

still feel control thoughts is OP in a combat situation???

Substitute "Mob Mind" for "Control Thoughts," though, and the dynamic changes to:

1) Mage Casts Force 11 Mob Mind, waits for next turn.
1) Sniper double-taps, drops 1-2 targets.
2) Mage issues command for all Mob Mind targets to kill themselves, performs other simple action.
-Combat Over

True. But area effect is still limited to <force> radius, and affects everyone (friend or foe) in the area of effect...
So the Mage (if he has a conscience, and the situation) has to be careful of his commands...

[JustADude]

My mage character can: Control Thoughts 1 guy and make him killhimself in the IP.
The sniper in our team can: Shoot twice in an IP, with DV of 10 + net hits, on a roll of at least 16 dice or so (so average 8 net hits)

Cotnrolling that one guy doesn't seem so OP anymore when the other guy easily decks 2 people an IP...

Actually.
It goes:
2: sniper shoots, shoots again.

Depending on how juiced up your sniper is VS your Mage VS the target of your control thoughts, the kill ratio could be 8:1 sniper!

still feel control thoughts is OP in a combat situation???

Substitute "Mob Mind" for "Control Thoughts," though, and the dynamic changes to:

1) Mage Casts Force 11 Mob Mind, waits for next turn.
1) Sniper double-taps, drops 1-2 targets.
2) Mage issues command for all Mob Mind targets to kill themselves, performs other simple action.
-Combat Over

True. But area effect is still limited to <force> radius, and affects everyone (friend or foe) in the area of effect...
So the Mage (if he has a conscience, and the situation) has to be careful of his commands...

And that's why the Mage is standing next to the sniper with an optical Spotter's Scope, while the rest of the team stays out of the Mage's Line of Sight.

Of course, really, most of the time this would be used would be for situations where they have to take out a specific group quickly, from surprise. That gives the Mage time to pick his ground and carefully target his spell... or, heck, summon some Spirits of Man and order them to have all the guards kill themselves.