[foolofsound]

The unarmed attack required to deliver a touch spell is part of the spellcasting action.

Yeah, I though he meant punching them for damage, then touch spelling them for more damage at the same time.

[Eye Eternal]

Just as a quick question sice the topic is up. When initiating as a mystic adept, do you have to specify what side you initiated towards, adept or mage?

If I initiated and took weapon attunment (adept) which states that every other initiation gets the weapon a +1, would EVERY initiation add to that, or do you have to specify initiated 1 time with adept and then blah with mage? Or do they both just straight go in one column?

[foolofsound]

I THINK initiation counts towards both Adept and Mage abilities.

[Noble Drake]

Initiation would raise your maximum possible magic score, that's it... no reason to treat the raise from a 6 to a 7 or a 7 to 8 total magic any different than if you were raising a 4 to 5 total magic.

You initiate, you raise your total Magic score... then you decide whether that point of Magic you just got is dedicated to adept powers or to your mana-skills.

[rasmusnicolaj]

If you wanna be a melee fighting mage the consider going with a possession tradition and remember ot learn the spell Elemental Aura.
As a possession mage your first metamagic should probably be Channeling.

Rasmus

[Eye Eternal]

I already know initiation raises your max magic, BUT there are powers that rely on your initiation grade,c therefore my question pertained to if initiation was a solid thing to add those levels of initiation to those powers. My example uses a metamagic that calls for level of grade divided by two (round up). I am inclined to agree with Fool.

[Walks Through Walls]

Initiation would raise your maximum possible magic score, that's it... no reason to treat the raise from a 6 to a 7 or a 7 to 8 total magic any different than if you were raising a 4 to 5 total magic.

You initiate, you raise your total Magic score... then you decide whether that point of Magic you just got is dedicated to adept powers or to your mana-skills.

You don't just get a point of magic for initiating in SR4A (nor 4e). You have to raise your magic separately. I would say that anything that is dependent on levels of initiation would count all initiations.

[Eye Eternal]

TY Walks. Opinion noted. I had thought it was that way. Good to see I got some agreements out of people. I had to ask though. Tricky rules...

[All4BigGuns]

What about max force and overcasting?

Following the actual rules, and dumping that entry in the FAQ in the garbage where it belongs, your total Magic will determine when you're overcasting. This is NOT broken as some will try to claim, as you will still have fewer dice to roll when casting the spell than the full magician does, and thus will not be very likely at all to get the hits needed to cap out the higher Force hit limit. The rule specifically state that Adept power ratings go off of the full Magic rating, so why in blazes would the other half be limited to what's assigned? "Balance" doesn't count as that is debunked by the point I already stated that the MA still gets fewer dice for the spellcasting test.

[Noble Drake]

Initiation would raise your maximum possible magic score, that's it... no reason to treat the raise from a 6 to a 7 or a 7 to 8 total magic any different than if you were raising a 4 to 5 total magic.

You initiate, you raise your total Magic score... then you decide whether that point of Magic you just got is dedicated to adept powers or to your mana-skills.

You don't just get a point of magic for initiating in SR4A (nor 4e). You have to raise your magic separately. I would say that anything that is dependent on levels of initiation would count all initiations.

To be clear, that is what I was saying the "you initiate, you raise your total Magic score," bit was meant as having an implied "then" between the two statements implying timing... I see it is very misleading when read as written without context from the sentence before...

What I meant overall, re-worded more clearly to answer the original question: You only have one Magic score despite it being split between two purposes, and you only have one Initiate Grade along with that - so there should be no confuse as to what gets used where... other than the question of whether max force/overcasting is an "other purpose" (it is) or a "use of magic-based skills" (it isn't).

[Eye Eternal]

Being a MA and being able to still throw a force 10 ANYTHING is rough. You pay 5 LESS quality points than mage, and if you look at it you only spend 5 for adept, so therefore you are spending only 5 to be able to cast and you would give them the ability to throw out high as hell power spells still. Unbalanced in my opinion. A mage has to pay out for that force. Ok so you get less dp, WHATEVER. The main damage comes from force, the rest is EXTRA. A force 10 bolt still is minimum 10 damage if not screwed up while casting. Thats DROPS someone. Seriously... A mage gives up a lot  for that privilege.

[foolofsound]

Being a MA and being able to still throw a force 10 ANYTHING is rough. You pay 5 LESS quality points than mage, and if you look at it you only spend 5 for adept, so therefore you are spending only 5 to be able to cast and you would give them the ability to throw out high as hell power spells still. Unbalanced in my opinion. A mage has to pay out for that force. Ok so you get less dp, WHATEVER. The main damage comes from force, the rest is EXTRA. A force 10 bolt still is minimum 10 damage if not screwed up while casting. Thats DROPS someone. Seriously... A mage gives up a lot  for that privilege.

This is a major reason why my ruling on this would be "Max Force = Magician Magic*2" for Mystic Adepts. A MA with 5 PP worth of Adept powers can still throw out Force 10 Stunbolts just as well as a pure Magician can. They will do slightly less damage (2-3 DV on average; compare to 10 from Force), using the same drain values as a pure magician.

Don't try to tell me that said MA would have a hard time hitting through Will, either. Assuming a decent Spellcasting score and a Focus, the MA should have no difficulty hitting their targets, even at WIL 6.

[Noble Drake]

Being a MA and being able to still throw a force 10 ANYTHING is rough. You pay 5 LESS quality points than mage, and if you look at it you only spend 5 for adept, so therefore you are spending only 5 to be able to cast and you would give them the ability to throw out high as hell power spells still. Unbalanced in my opinion. A mage has to pay out for that force. Ok so you get less dp, WHATEVER. The main damage comes from force, the rest is EXTRA. A force 10 bolt still is minimum 10 damage if not screwed up while casting. Thats DROPS someone. Seriously... A mage gives up a lot  for that privilege.

You are forgetting than spellcasting is a single opposed test, though.

If you are at 6 dice instead of 10 and your target would have 6 dice either way (like a troll's body or anybody with enough counterspelling) - one of those characters is way more than 5 BP worth more likely to get that spell to work.

Maybe it is just me, but with attack spells being true "all or nothing" affairs (you get one roll to do better than your target, and you can't force them to have a penalty to their side of the roll like an automatic weapon can) I want as many dice to cast them as I can reasonably get my hands on. I mean, a force 10 powerbolt spell you only got 3 hits on does absolutely no damage to your target if they get 3 hits on their Body (+counterspelling) against it.

[Mäx]

If you are at 6 dice instead of 10 and your target would have 6 dice either way (like a troll's body or anybody with enough counterspelling) - one of those characters is way more than 5 BP worth more likely to get that spell to work.

Maybe it is just me, but with attack spells being true "all or nothing" affairs (you get one roll to do better than your target, and you can't force them to have a penalty to their side of the roll like an automatic weapon can) I want as many dice to cast them as I can reasonably get my hands on. I mean, a force 10 powerbolt spell you only got 3 hits on does absolutely no damage to your target if they get 3 hits on their Body (+counterspelling) against it.

Nice example, except pools you used are ridiculously small.
My pure combat mysad build has 15 dice to cast combat spells and my Occult detective mysad has 16 dice for combat spells. 

[Noble Drake]

Nice example, except pools you used are ridiculously small.
My pure combat mysad build has 15 dice to cast combat spells and my Occult detective mysad has 16 dice for combat spells.

I can only reply: cool story, except pools you used are ridiculously large.