[Psikerlord]

We have a bit of a "gentleman's agreement" in our game with the cyberlimb/torso dwarf... he's got a few extra armour points, but nothing too crazy. So far so good. We have a number of houserules, but decided to leave cyberlimbs alone. If I had to go with a blanket rule, I would change it to something like: no buying extra armour for cyberlimbs, but every limb auto gives you +1 armour (just like it gives you +1 condition box). Limbs are still way awesome even with this. 

[Lethe]

Yes, EXPENSIVE (~552K).  But possible.

Adapsin is not for starting characters, you have to get the treatment before you get all your cyberware.
- You first have to start out as a vanilla troll with no cyberware at all!
- You slowly collect the money needed in endless runs, with a weak vanilla character - good luck surviving that.
- You have to get all the implants ingame(!),  chopping of your limbs and stuff, spending many months in hospitals!

Very realistic your assumptions, very likely to happen. And if, give him some reward...

In the end, since you got an reputation already, your enemies will know about it. They won't use normal weapons on you, because they know its useless. They will use elemental effects cutting the pretty armor in half or magic, ignoring it at all. Thats how it works. If they know they are fighting a tank, they won't waste their peashooters on him.

[Lethe]

For comparison, a set of SecureTech Leg and Arm Casings (covering both your upper arms and upper legs) only grants +1/+1 in total.

For comparison, the PPP is discrete armor at most 2 millimeters strong and with a certain flexibility.
The cyberlimb armor takes away half your space available in a cyberlimb. At rating 4 i assume it to be a centimeter thick layer of rigid full metal plates. Thats a protection at least 10 times better.

[_Pax_]

- You first have to start out as a vanilla troll with no cyberware at all!
- You slowly collect the money needed in endless runs, with a weak vanilla character - good luck surviving that.

  Or start with lesser cyber, and slowly upgrade one piece at a time.  "Essence Hole", and all that.

  Regardless, it still unsettles my GM-sensibilities that it's even remotely possible to do.  Hence, my houserule above, which limits it at least somewhat.

[Lethe]

  Regardless, it still unsettles my GM-sensibilities that it's even remotely possible to do.  Hence, my houserule above, which limits it at least somewhat.

That what happens, if you give characters time to develop. At that time, the groups mage will have half a million nuyen as well + approximately 200 karma. It will be a death machine. The difficulty of runs will scale and 40 armor, while in numbers, i agree, is just ridiculously awesome....its only effective in combat and runs should be in more ways challenging then just combat ;-)

[Crash_00]

To clear up a few things.

Cyber-Armor stacks with other cyber-armor. Only attributes are averaged. Enhancements (which is what cyber-armor is classified as on pg. 343 SR4A) aren't. Attribute enhancements add to the attribute of the limb, which then gets averaged, but armor doesn't have an attribute to add to/get averaged.

In addition, targeting a single limb may cause only that limbs attribute (Body) to be used for the damage resistance test, but it would not limit the armor in any way. Armor is not an attribute, it is an enhancement. It is not averaged or subject to the "use the attribute for that limb" phrase consequently. The only way to negate armor in SR is to call a shot to negate armor or manage to get enough AP to negate it. Armor is not location specific. SR has no hit location system.

Whether you can target a specific limb to force only it's Body to be used is a GM call (all Called Shots are GM calls). The following phrases are relevant here, "pending the gamemaster’s agreement" and "the gamemaster decides if such a vulnerable spot is accessible". Both are from pg. 161 of SR4A in the called shot section.

Toxin resistance uses the character's body. Nowhere does it state unaugmented body is to be used or that only natural body is used. It's a GM call  at best on whether or not the cyber-body would help at all, but by RAW I have yet to find anything stating concretely that you cannot use Cyber-Body for the test. To be perfectly honest, we have no idea how the 2070ish cybernetic replacements would work with the blood system. Claiming to know one way or the other is just blatant ignorance (unless you're working in the cybernetics field and would like to provide us with some insight on what's coming out next year). The blood could be limited to just the meet body, or it could flow through the arms and legs to simulate a normal system and pass through basic filtering systems (higher body = more systems). The book literally does not say either way. Remember, that drugs affect the character completely as well (not just his meat body).

Players and NPCs trying to get out of a -20ish modifier by using Long Shot may often find themselves subjected to the optional rule for longshots. A -20 modifier is supposed to be something that is hard to accomplish. How often did the terminators get blown away by small arms? That's what someone in full blown replacement with 4 levels of armor in each limb is going to resemble damage resistance wise.

As for Adapsin, you can start cybered, gain adapsin and have a lowered rate on the replacements you pick up. So going from say a tweaked out second hand torso that cost roughly 17k and 1.8 essence to an Alpha Torso after the adapsin treatment would cost the runner around 98k (68 for the new torso and 30k for the adapsin) and get him an essence hole of .75 (1.5 x .7 = 1.05. 1.8- 1.05 = .75).
Replacing good standard limbs for alpha limbs would run about 60k a piece and net an essence hole of .3 each. I used a second hand torso because that's about all a starting character can take and have any avail left for any customization.

You can't start maxed out, but you can easily make an out of the box competent replacement character with initiative boost either through synaptic boosters or some speedballed drugs (Jazz + Cram or Jazz+Cram+Kamikaze).

As for trying to build a tank. Remember, the character still has worn armor that he can mod with the elemental resistances (really irks me that there weren't cyber versions of most of them). But yes, a mage seeing that much "dead" space in his aura would probably mana the shit out of it.

For the sheer "Over-powerdeness"* that can occur, see the Brick Wall that I used for a very very advanced group's end campaign mission. With Gel Packs added to his trouble armor he was rolling 66 dice to resist before counting in AP.

It's powerful, but there are far more attainable and powerful options to go for (mob mind spell for instance or even the Suit of Doom).

I want a book, page, chapter and verse cite.

How about you do the same for your claims dude. Pointing out that RAW does not equal your line of thinking is not an attack on you. It's just pointing out how things actually work.

All you're doing is exactly what you've tried to say PAX is doing. Muddying things up without any support and claiming that since it's your viewpoint and logical to you, it must be RAW.

edit: fixed math to not include bio-compatibility

[Falconer]

Look up some of my old posts on dumpshock from right after SR4 came out... you'll find out I advocated for averaging armor until the errata/FAQ clarified changed it to be fully cumulative.

Then I started to look elsewhere in the rulebook and got more creative.  Found lots of ways to work around the problem.


Crash:
I was calling BS on Pax's assertion that damage resistance is ALWAYS a full body test.  In only quoting that one line where I called him out to back up that assertion... now you do the same to me.

And if you actually took the time to read the thread and my posts, you'll notice I cited RAW quite a bit.

When there is no RAW as was for pax's assertion which dealt only with that single assertion of his I quoted... which you then yourself then agreed with (called shot to a single cyberlimb only using body score of that limb).  How exactly do you argue with someone who is making things up without support?  Only way I know is to have them cite their supporting material.

[_Pax_]

I want a book, page, chapter and verse cite.

Give me one that says it isn't a full-body Test.

[Crash_00]

He's not wrong though. Damage is treated "full-body" in SR. Each GM can choose to allow what you've stated, and it isn't a leap, but that doesn't make it 100% the only way to work. What he said is fully by the RAW too. What it boils down to is whether or not the GM will let you make a called shot to target only the arm or not (which really is opening up a whole can of worms in an abstracted system like SR) to gain the benefit of restricting them to use only the arms body.

Of course, if the person has been doing it right, there arm is going to be within one point of the rest of their body (since you average for you stats most of the time).

It is just as likely for the GM to say no. I mean sure you can target the arm, but what keeps the bullet from tumbling, exiting the arm and winding up penetrating into the torso/leg/head? Neither way is the only RAW way. Keep in mind the called shot section has the last slot for causing special effects, not targeting specific body parts. It's never laid out in the books (AFAIK) how targeting implants with a called shot would work, so that is up to each GM specifically. There is no RAW for it other than that the option can exist for at least some implants. Allowing it to work on cyberlimbs causes some odd behavior (why can I target his cybernetic right arm but not his meat left arm).

In other news, resisting damage isn't exactly similar in any way to leading an attack or firing a gun.

[Falconer]

I already did Pax... numerous times... each time you refused to read nor acknowledge the section in question.

It is a Damage Resistance "Test".

p343, Cyberlimbs
"When a particular LIMB is used for a test...in any case use the average of all limbs involved in the task..."

Augmentation: Implant Medics "If the implant was targetted witha called shot...."  clear RAW of a called shot can target a single implant like a cyberlimb.

Clear example of NOT necessarily a full body test.  So the assertion that it ALWAYS is one... is not true, and it does not say this anywhere in the book.  Only narrow cases where it's not are given.

I gave numerous examples of things which don't necessarily involve the cyberlimbs in the test.  (note I said don't necessarily... I'm a big fan of GM discretion without invoking rule0 and houseruling everything).

[Crash_00]

I already did Pax... numerous times... each time you refused to read nor acknowledge the section in question.

No you didn't. That is the real issue here. You're making one fairly large assumption at how the rules work.

I'll break the issue down for you.

In game terms, an implant medic system will automatically seek to heal/repair a damaged implant. If the implant was targeted with a called shot, the implant medic’s rating adds to the dice pool for any healing tests to fix that damage. If the implant was damaged by other means, use the implant medic rating to make a surgical test as described under Installing/Repairing Cyberware and Bioware, p. 126

Nowhere in this section does it even state that there is a Damage Resistance Test for a targeted implant. There are literally NO rules describing what happens when an implant is targeted, what the effects are, ect. You're making an assumption that it works just like normal damage, but what is the body of an internal air tank? a nanohive? cybereyes? an autoinjector? It could be as simple as take a -x penalty and that implant is "damaged" (ie a boolean damage/not damaged factor) or as complex as the implant (not the character) taking damage. No one knows.

All you have shown is that implants can be targeted. You've given some cases that could be looked at from a certain point of view to not include cybernetic bonuses, but that doesn't make the point of view RAW by any means. There are many cases of common sense <-that way and RAW over there ->.

Pg. 127 of Augmentation (Repairing Implants) makes it pretty clear that everything involving implant damage is determined by the GM on a case by case analysis (ie how damaged the implant is or even outright destroying it).

[_Pax_]

"What Crash said."

You have your way of reading the rules, Falconer.  That's fine, great, I have no problem with that.  Whatever makes your games more enjoyable to you.

The problem, though, is that you apparently think your way is the only (correct) way to understand the RAW.  And then you apparently take personal offense at anyone who looks at the same rules, and comes to a different conclusion.  And that's your problem, not mine, nor anyone elses'.

...

But, fine, whatever; you want a rules-based proof that Damage Resistance is not a limb-by-limb Test?  Sure thing, here it is: Shadowrun has never, ever, in any edition and especially not in 4th, had anything resembling official and core rules for handling Hit-Location in combat.  If you DON'T call a shot, that bullet could still hit your target in the head.  Or the torso.  Or the arm.  Or the foot.  And the rules don't give a fig.  The damage test does not vary based on where the bullet, knife, club, arrow, etc. actually hit the character.  An assault cannon round to the face, is no different in the rules, than an assault cannon round to the groin, or an assault cannon round to the very tip of your left pinky finger.  In any and all of those cases, and every other conceivable test, you would roll your total, averaged Body to resist the damage - unless the GM elects to modify the rules on the spot.  Which is known as "a houserule", and thus has precisely zero bearing on the Rules as Written.





Oh, and here's another angle of attack: Called shots let you bypass armor ... not attributes.  Discuss.

[All4BigGuns]

The problem, though, is that you apparently think your way is the only (correct) way to understand the RAW.  And then you apparently take personal offense at anyone who looks at the same rules, and comes to a different conclusion.  And that's your problem, not mine, nor anyone elses'.

Pot and kettle. You act in exactly this way whenever people disagree with you.

[Lethe]

Pot and kettle. You act in exactly this way whenever people disagree with you.

Sweet irony. People who live in glass houses should take their shower in the basement? ;-)

[_Pax_]

The problem, though, is that you apparently think your way is the only (correct) way to understand the RAW.  And then you apparently take personal offense at anyone who looks at the same rules, and comes to a different conclusion.  And that's your problem, not mine, nor anyone elses'.

Pot and kettle. You act in exactly this way whenever people disagree with you.

Please, point me at just one post where I've behaved that way.  Even just close to it.