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Cyber Limb Armour

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_Pax_

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« Reply #105 on: <06-10-12/2115:49> »
Or we might as well add non-conductivity and similar narrow protections as well since gear/equipment doesn't specify.
Slippery Slope fallacy.

Just sayin'.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #106 on: <06-10-12/2233:41> »
And this argument is exactly why my opinion holds strong that this "Rule 0" crud is the biggest mistake ever made in game design.
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« Reply #107 on: <06-10-12/2242:07> »
And this argument is exactly why my opinion holds strong that this "Rule 0" crud is the biggest mistake ever made in game design.
Without Rule 0, SR4 would be the next thing to completely unplayable.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #108 on: <06-10-12/2247:34> »
And this argument is exactly why my opinion holds strong that this "Rule 0" crud is the biggest mistake ever made in game design.
Without Rule 0, SR4 would be the next thing to completely unplayable.

In your opinion. Personally, I find the majority of things work perfectly fine. Then there's that in my experience "Rule 0" gets pulled out and flaunted the most by jackass-types looking for a power trip and those who just don't want to bother learning the rules--or learning to work within the rules--(I realize there are exceptions, and I have seen exceptions). Basically, though, my view is that the GM should always be bound by the exact same rules the players are--preferably even more stringent rules.
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Crash_00

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« Reply #109 on: <06-10-12/2247:50> »
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RAW does NOT support in any way shape or form that a cybertorso EVER replaces your actual body score.  p343.
Wow, if you actually read what I've said from before at all, you'll see that I agreed the character still has a natural unaugmented score for each attribute. The cyberlimbs don't replace that score. Instead they determine how that score is figured for any tests/tasks that occur. This is all blatantly in the cyberlimb text. I've quoted it a dozen times. The character has the attribute, but it never gets used if he has all limbs replaced. This is because of this section, that I've quoted here: "use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber);
in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task (round down). If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb."

If the attribute figuring is not decided by one limb, it's decided by multiple limbs. There is no case of a zero limb test. Yes, the character has his natural scores still, but any test/task being attempted is going to have it's attribute figured by the attributes of his limbs. If all his limbs are cyberlimbs, his natural will never get figured in.

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In the absence of any text to the contrary CHANGING this... the player still ALWAYS has those natural(augmented) stats!  The raw states the cyberlimb/shell ALWAYS has it's own stats INDEPENDENT of those stats of the base character.
Seeing as how this is the basis of this point of attack, and I've already disproved it repeatedly (again above), you really need a new angle.
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So you take the ONLY thing in the game which solely affects flesh such as a neurotoxin... then rule that the cyberlimbs help.  Great that's your descretion as a GM to say which cyberlimbs help or not.  It's also fully RAW for another GM to rule that cyberlimbs don't help at all with your fleshy bits resisting against the ingested neurotoxin stopping your heart.
Uhm...healing, which also isn't restricted to non-cybernetic. Drugs, which likewise aren't restricted to non-cybernetic. Toxins aren't the only thing, just the one you have the biggest focus on. And no, it isn't RAW for the GM to put extra limitations in. Doesn't matter where it goes, or how you twist the wording of it, there is no RAW stating this limitation to flesh only, so it would be a house rule.
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When the Body stat test is called for.. .the GM DETERMINES if each cyberlimb (including the torso/skull shell) are included in the Body stat (cyberlimb only, weakest, average).   That is direct RAW from the cyberlimb section.
He determines if each limb (natural or cyber) is included in the figuring of the attribute. He also must choose one limb, or multiple limbs. No limbs is not an option (and would result in a 0 attribute if it were).

Falconer

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« Reply #110 on: <06-10-12/2345:04> »
Yes... in any other case...

It IS possible to have a test involve NO CYBERLIMBS... if that occurs... you don't include them.  BY RAW this is the GM's call WITHIN RAW.  I disagree strongly with your assertion that it's in anyway contrary to RAW.  Cite where a test must always include a CYBERLIMB/CYBERSHELL.  There is NOTHING in that entire bit you cited which says you must.

Cite where you can never have a test not involve any cyberlimbs and a GM must always choose at least one.  It's not there... it's to the GM to determine *WHICH IF ANY* add their *SEPERATE* attributes to a test.  Why is that so hard to understand... it's the *CLEAR* wording of the rules.

The cyberlimb has nothing to do with for example a HMMWV infection... that's the characters own immune system fighting it, it involves no limbs.  Only his limbic system (and any cyber/bio which adds to it like certain disease resistance nanites).

Or as you've so graciously put forward it can involve his natural healing or other similar things.   A character shouldn't heal faster simply because he has cyberlimbs.  The limbs are not relevant to his healing test.  So a GM is perfectly within his rights NOT to include them.

You're the one acting contrary to the text... tell me exactly where in the text at least one cyberlimb must always be included in a test and averaged/minimized?  It never says this.  You're simply making it up.


I've only cited that you're wrong that RAW does not contradict my interpretation in any way shape or form.  You can't *QUOTE* any portion of RAW which contradicts anything I've said in this post.  Only continue to assert your own opinion  (which is also within RAW), and say I'm wrong repeatedly.

If you can't cite the RAW which says you MUST include a cyberlimb/cybershell there's nothing I can do to convince you, you're blind as a bat.  You'll not dissuade me from my position.   As the full text of the cyberlimb page asserts my discretion as a GM to decide what tests are and are not relevant to any cyberlimb.  You claim contrary to this, I have no discretion.  So in this you contradict RAW right then and there.


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« Reply #111 on: <06-11-12/0225:24> »
And this argument is exactly why my opinion holds strong that this "Rule 0" crud is the biggest mistake ever made in game design.
Without Rule 0, SR4 would be the next thing to completely unplayable.

In your opinion. Personally, I find the majority of things work perfectly fine. Then there's that in my experience "Rule 0" gets pulled out and flaunted the most by jackass-types looking for a power trip and those who just don't want to bother learning the rules--or learning to work within the rules--(I realize there are exceptions, and I have seen exceptions). Basically, though, my view is that the GM should always be bound by the exact same rules the players are--preferably even more stringent rules.

And good GMs, when possible, state their Rule 0-ing in advance.

I'll be starting a face-to-face campaign in about two weeks.  I've already got my own personal houserules in a text document; on Game Day, I'll have several copies printed out and available to the players.  As new rulings are made, it will be updated, and new printouts provided.  The file is currently four pages long, including the list of "optional rules I intend to use / allow players to use", listed by book and with page-number references.  It will probably hit six pages, once I finish thinking through some Adept power tweaks.  (Mostly, to Improved Attribute powers.  I think Adepts get boned, there.)

FastJack

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« Reply #112 on: <06-11-12/0730:19> »
Ah, Monday mornings are always the most fun. I think we'll lock this thread to let some heads cool off. Only for a day or so, of course.

Kontact

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« Reply #113 on: <06-12-12/0924:04> »
So, how much do dart pistols cost again?