[Glorthoron]

Has anyone tried implementing some house rule that limits the number of hits that a person can utilize?  Such as Skill + 1 or Skill x 2?

I ask this, because the idea that a person with a skill of 1 and agility of 6 rolls the same dice as a person with a skill of 6 (twice as skilled) and an agility of 1 bothers me.  The guy with he higher skill is far better trained at what he does, but he is at even odds with a newbie with a high agility.

[squee_nabob]

What do you do when defaulting?

[Glorthoron]

only 1 hit counts (unless using edge)

[squee_nabob]

I’ve never tried what you propose, nor do I see any need for it (since the skill thing doesn’t bother me at all (I’m much more focused on mechanical problems than fluff)). I do see some things that may be features/flaws, and I am not sure what you intended. Let me go over a few that concerned me:

1) Opposed Social Skill Tests (specifically intimidation). If you don’t have intimidation, you can easily be scared.

2) Weapon/Vehicle Modification. Some tests require more than Skill +1 hits. Or does not apply to Extended Tests, or does it apply to each iteration of an Extended Test?

3) Unless the average drive has 1-2 driving (depending on skill or skill x2), they cannot make the threshold 2 test to avoid a pedestrian or obstacle.

I’m sure there are more and I’m far too lazy to look for them (Initiate Cryptanalysis is a low hanging fruit too). Basically this has problems when you have fixed thresholds, especially on Extended Tests or in skills that people usually default.

[Glorthoron]

I’ve never tried what you propose, nor do I see any need for it (since the skill thing doesn’t bother me at all (I’m much more focused on mechanical problems than fluff)). I do see some things that may be features/flaws, and I am not sure what you intended. Let me go over a few that concerned me:

1) Opposed Social Skill Tests (specifically intimidation). If you don’t have intimidation, you can easily be scared.

2) Weapon/Vehicle Modification. Some tests require more than Skill +1 hits. Or does not apply to Extended Tests, or does it apply to each iteration of an Extended Test?

3) Unless the average drive has 1-2 driving (depending on skill or skill x2), they cannot make the threshold 2 test to avoid a pedestrian or obstacle.

I’m sure there are more and I’m far too lazy to look for them (Initiate Cryptanalysis is a low hanging fruit too). Basically this has problems when you have fixed thresholds, especially on Extended Tests or in skills that people usually default.

1) opposing intimidation is resisted by composure tests in my game.  The initimidation skill should not have anything to do with resisting it.

2) extended tests are limited with each roll, not the extended threshold.

3) any person with a skill of 1 or greater can beat a threshold of 2 (Skill+1 or Skillx2)

I think the concept that a well skilled person being beaten by a newbie with high agility is far more rediculous than worrying about the things that you mentioned.  If a person is defaulting to an attribute, there is no way he should be able to achieve a goal that would require extensive training.  Again, going back to combat, a person with a melee skill of 3 + an agility of 2 should not be on par with a person who is defaulting to their agility of 6.

[JustADude]

Okay, reality check time. Speaking as someone who has actually studied the realities of violence, the rules as written work just fine. You may not want to hear it, but without the physicality to back it up, skill can only do so much when knuckles start flying.

In Real Life an Agility 6 individual, someone who, looking at the stat ratings, is Multiple-Olympic-Gold-Medal level in reflexes and coordination, with Unarmed Combat at 1, got in a couple school-yard brawls, would be able to keep up with a doddering old man (Agility 1), who is a Grand Master martial artist (UC 6). However, in a more realistic scenario of Agil 4 UC 1 vs Agil 2 UC 6, the Grand Master has a clear edge.

[Glorthoron]

I have a friend who would be considered to have an agility of 2, and I would be considered to have an agility of 4.  He has reached 1st dan in kendo (skill =3 for professional), where I have a skill of 1 (pretty new to the sport).  However, he would clean the floor with me in kendo every time even though our dice are the same.

[All4BigGuns]

Really, doing something like this is a case of trying to fix something that isn't broken. All it's going to do is make the players in any game this house rule is used in have almost no skills, and those they do have are going to be at the "best in the world" level or close to it.

[Glorthoron]

Actually, it is something that is broken.  And in my opinion, it does need fixing.

[Tsuzua]

The problem is that people want skill to be just more a mere dice pool boost and having it matter for its own sake.  With most skills, you can be good enough with a high attribute + skill 1 or even with defaulting.  This is because you often just need 1-3 hits for many non-combat rolls.  With a high attribute bought up for tests that you need everyone die you can get*, you can pretty decent at a whole bunch of these less important skills often to the point you don't need to bother buying them.

What people have an issue with is attribute inflation where you tend to have maxed out attributes for those that actually care about.  When every shadowrunner who wants to shot people has the augmented max agility like it ain't no thing, some people want to deal with it.

However, skill hit caps just make people suck more.  You can't afford to have a 2-3 in all skills.  So if you need 2+ hits in something like driving, you're just SOL. Thus you just want to hyperspecialize since you can't be a generalist.  Now, SR wants you to do this anyways (sorry people!) so really nothing has changed at all.

*- For example, having a 9 agility for shooting people in the face with a rifle makes you a ballet princess and okay at sneaking.

[Mirikon]

Has anyone tried implementing some house rule that limits the number of hits that a person can utilize?  Such as Skill + 1 or Skill x 2?

I ask this, because the idea that a person with a skill of 1 and agility of 6 rolls the same dice as a person with a skill of 6 (twice as skilled) and an agility of 1 bothers me.  The guy with he higher skill is far better trained at what he does, but he is at even odds with a newbie with a high agility.

Why should that bother you? Someone who is very nimble, but not as skilled, vs. someone who is highly skilled, but clumsy as hell. Why should one do better than the other?

[Glorthoron]

However, skill hit caps just make people suck more.  You can't afford to have a 2-3 in all skills.  So if you need 2+ hits in something like driving, you're just SOL. Thus you just want to hyperspecialize since you can't be a generalist.  Now, SR wants you to do this anyways (sorry people!) so really nothing has changed at all.

That's what Edge is for.

[All4BigGuns]

However, skill hit caps just make people suck more.  You can't afford to have a 2-3 in all skills.  So if you need 2+ hits in something like driving, you're just SOL. Thus you just want to hyperspecialize since you can't be a generalist.  Now, SR wants you to do this anyways (sorry people!) so really nothing has changed at all.

That's what Edge is for.

Very finite resource, and your idea would all but require Edge to be spent on practically every roll made. Mirikon brings up a very valid point. Why does this bother you?

[Glorthoron]

Very finite resource, and your idea would all but require Edge to be spent on practically every roll made. Mirikon brings up a very valid point. Why does this bother you?

without any limiting factor like this involved, why would any player bother getting a skill greater than 1 until all of their stats were maxed out?

besides, if I'm the first person to bring up the issue, why was it listed as an optional rule in the game?

[raggedhalo]

Maybe allow hits from Edge to exceed the cap, like spellcasting?