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Adept: Knucks + Killing Hands + Elemental Body + critical strike?

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Lucean

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« Reply #15 on: <02-24-16/0521:13> »
cause you gain the AP of the associated element.
Which is zero as they have not been defined. The table on page 171 is only for determination whether things catch fire.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #16 on: <02-24-16/0610:48> »
Actually it is, at least for fire damage, as per the little table on p.171: Fire based spells get their force as AP and flame based weapons (like a weapon focus) get a flat -6
Acid permanently reduces armor by one each round
Electricity can safely assumed to be a -5 in line with every other electricity based weapon
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« Reply #17 on: <02-24-16/0809:10> »
Actually it is, at least for fire damage, as per the little table on p.171: Fire based spells get their force as AP and flame based weapons (like a weapon focus) get a flat -6
Acid permanently reduces armor by one each round
Electricity can safely assumed to be a -5 in line with every other electricity based weapon

Yup, an cold's chance, even if super small, to break armor.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

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ClaytonCross

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« Reply #18 on: <02-24-16/1800:26> »
     So I am not seeing how people are deciding which abilities are compatible with knocks or other abilities. It seems to me if your using the unarmed skill for your roll. It counts as unarmed combat (even if using a weapon). That the point of Knocks is to allow players to change unarmed combat from stun damage to physical damage without requiring the use of "Killing Hands". That said Knucks say that "they substantially boost the impact of a punch", and Knucks can be considered armored gloves or brass knuckles then we are not talking about completely covering your hands. I don't see why they would or any ability that works with "unarmed combat" is not allowed because of the use of the skill.

   A lot of what is written here seems to be a separation that players are making by opinion that I don't see as supported in writing or intended by the game rules. I do realize this interpretation would allow the use of elemental weapon or elemental strike and that doesn't bother me. Again I feel like that is the intent of the piece of gear per its description and the wording used.

  My real question in starting this post is if elemental bodies magic attack damage is a set attack that does not get unarmed bonuses because it is a replacement of the physical damage of the character using it. It is an unarmed attack role which makes me want to say bonuses apply but its damage is defined without regards to unarmed combat damage and the attack seems to list damage almost as an alternative damage.
   
    I find it really strange that so many posts say you can't use knucks with killing hands even though both are for unarmed attacks (yes its a weapon but that's why its exotic, uses unarmed combat, and basically only adds one damage and changes it to physical instead of stun, hits they listed the (strength +1)P damage because if they listed it as providing +1P to unarmed combat people would surely say strength damage as stun and 1 physical damage. Also I note that penetration strike list that is not compatible with elemental strike but not elemental body which lists its own AP again making me think its damage and AP are a different tack provided based on an unarmed combat roll. I imagine you punch and lighting, fire, or what ever roll 4 inches off the end of your arm striking the target before your arm hits them and there for replacing your damage. It does say something the ability of the elemental aura being a few inches above the body.

   If anyone has any actual rule or text and is not just making it as they go PLEASE paste that text in support of your side. That is the clarification I am looking for. Otherwise I can not find rime or reason for why some people say one ability is ok and another is not.
Thank you for your posts. Please support your claims when if you can.


« Last Edit: <02-24-16/2131:00> by ClaytonCross »
I write long and repetitive trying to be clear, I am bad at examples, so people commonly skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of my actual point. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.

adzling

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« Reply #19 on: <02-24-16/1916:53> »
The clarification you are looking for is called LOGIC.

Knucks are not part of your body, so they do not and cannot benefit from an adept or other power that enhances your body.
It's also why they can be enchanted as a weapon focus whereas you cannot enchant your fist, or foot, or head.

What you are attempting is called RULES LAWYERING wherein you attempt to make something rules legal just because the exception you are seeking is not explicitly excluded in the rule book.

This is a common approach by rules lawyers and easily dismissed when you consider that not every potential situation can be predicted or written into a rule book.

Hence use LOGIC.

thanks and good night.


jim1701

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« Reply #20 on: <02-24-16/1956:31> »
So I am not seeing how people are deciding which abilities are compatible with knocks or other abilities. It seems to me if your using the unarmed skill for your roll. It counts as unarmed combat (even if using a weapon). That the point of Knocks is to allow players to change unarmed combat from stun damage to physical damage without requiring the use of "Killing Hands". That said Knucks say that "they substantially boost the impact of a punch", and Knucks can be considered armored gloves or brass knuckles then we are not talking about completely covering your hands. I don't see why they would or any ability that works with "unarmed combat" is not allowed because of the use of the skill. A lot of what is written here seem to be a separation that players are making by opinion that I don't see as supported writing or intended by the game rules. I do realize this interpretation would allow the use of elemental weapon or elemental strike and that doesn't bother me. Again I feel like that is the intent of the piece of gear per its description and the wording used. My real question in starting this post is if elemental bodies magic attack damage is a set attack that does not get unarmed bonuses because it is a replacement of the physical damage of the character using it. It is an unarmed attack role which makes me want to say bonuses ably but its damage is defined without regards to unarmed combat damage and the attack seems to list damage almost as an alternative damage. I find it really strange that so many posts say you can't use knucks with killing hands even though both are for unarmed attacks (yes its a weapon but that's why its exotic, uses unarmed combat, and basically only adds one damage and changes it to physical instead of stun, hits they listed the (strength +1)P damage because if they listed it as providing +1P to unarmed combat people would surely say strength damage as stun and 1 physical damage.  If anyone has any actual rule or text and is not just making it as they go PLEASE paste that text. That is the clarification I am looking for. Otherwise I can not find rime or reason for why some people say one ability is ok and another is not. Also I note that penetration strike list that is not compatible with elemental strike but not elemental body which lists its own AP again making me think its damage and AP are a different tack provided based on an unarmed combat roll. I imagine you punch and lighting, fire, or what ever roll 4 inches off the end of your arm striking the target before your arm hits them and there for replacing your damage. It does say something the ability of the elemental aura being a few inches above the body.

Thank you for your posts. Please support your claims when if you can.

I can't help anyone who cannot indent.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #21 on: <02-24-16/2008:20> »
When I first saw this, due to the spelling error in the title, I believed it was a MA attempting to use Killing Hands, Elemental Body, Critical Strike and the Punch spell in combination.

All I can say to that is ouch.
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ClaytonCross

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« Reply #22 on: <02-24-16/2123:47> »
The clarification you are looking for is called LOGIC.

Knucks are not part of your body, so they do not and cannot benefit from an adept or other power that enhances your body.
It's also why they can be enchanted as a weapon focus whereas you cannot enchant your fist, or foot, or head.

What you are attempting is called RULES LAWYERING wherein you attempt to make something rules legal just because the exception you are seeking is not explicitly excluded in the rule book.

This is a common approach by rules lawyers and easily dismissed when you consider that not every potential situation can be predicted or written into a rule book.

Hence use LOGIC.

thanks and good night.

"Your logic" is that if your holding a weapon your not unarmed.
"My Logic" says the used unarmed skill with Knucks because it was the INTENT (so hardly "Rules Lawyering" since there is no rule either way, which is why I am asking on the "Rules and Such" page) to make them an unarmed combat enhancement and alternative to stun damage. Which is why its an exotic weapon with special rules instead of a club with damage of (strength + 1).

So I disagree with "your logic" and I am asking for some clarification. Their is no need for you to right a post of personal insult to some one asking for your help. Help or don't. This is the second time you have personally attacked me for not seeing things the way you do and asking why I am wrong.
I write long and repetitive trying to be clear, I am bad at examples, so people commonly skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of my actual point. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.

ClaytonCross

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« Reply #23 on: <02-24-16/2137:36> »
     I can't help anyone who cannot indent.

     I added indentation and a line space for you. The paragraph is now ready for you and I thank you in advanced for the amassing incite you can now provide on the content of the message. Also I added indentation to your reply for consistency and thank for tip on helping you help me. ; )
« Last Edit: <02-24-16/2146:48> by ClaytonCross »
I write long and repetitive trying to be clear, I am bad at examples, so people commonly skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of my actual point. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.

ClaytonCross

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« Reply #24 on: <02-24-16/2146:33> »
When I first saw this, due to the spelling error in the title, I believed it was a MA attempting to use Killing Hands, Elemental Body, Critical Strike and the Punch spell in combination.

All I can say to that is ouch.

   A Mystic Adept spell acting as a physical punch at range and applying melee attributes to a magic attack? I am not sure how that would be a thing. I would expect the punch to use magic + casting for a phantom hand not using your actual arm but what do I know. I am a noob and apparently my view point always seems be on the other side of any argument. Just trying to clarify before I try and do this in game. So I can at least have a good answer when the whole group yells at me that I can't do something I though was obviously ok. Also, Elemental body does use a melee combat role but as I stated above it seems to me that description implies that the damage and properties of the attack are separate which seems to be the exact opposite feeling I get from Knucks.
« Last Edit: <02-24-16/2155:01> by ClaytonCross »
I write long and repetitive trying to be clear, I am bad at examples, so people commonly skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of my actual point. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #25 on: <02-24-16/2150:45> »
Punch is a touch spell.

So it's a MA casting Punch, then using a full unarmed attack to deliver it rather than simoly a touch attack.
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Pap Renvela

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« Reply #26 on: <02-24-16/2154:29> »
Knucks are in the melee weapon table therefore it benefits from adept powers that effect melee weapons. It cannot therefore benefit from adept powers that effect unarmed. It's that simple, really.

ClaytonCross

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« Reply #27 on: <02-24-16/2200:23> »
Punch is a touch spell.

So it's a MA casting Punch, then using a full unarmed attack to deliver it rather than simoly a touch attack.

     Since all melee combat requires a full action and there is a spell cast, unless the spell has a hold or is cast as a free action it would amount to casting a spell, watching it dissipate and then punching some normally? I am guessing a GM would make a call as to if they can hold the spell for the next turn if it is not listed in the spell test. But what do I know.
I write long and repetitive trying to be clear, I am bad at examples, so people commonly skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of my actual point. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.

Reaver

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« Reply #28 on: <02-24-16/2205:29> »
I am going to take this space to point out that unless you are playing in a missions legal event, you are free to change the rules in anyway you choose for your home games.



But yes, the general accepted convention is anything that seperates your fist from contact with your target WILL STOP the use of many adept attack powers.

It is your body that is magical, not the brass knucks, not the lead lined glove, not the shock glove, your bare, unmodified hand.

The fact that you use the unarmed skill for many of these weapons relates how the weapon is used. They all use a punching motion exactly the same as throwing a punch.  Where as axe, sword, knife, and blunt combat all revolve around how well you can use the weapo  (and thus the various 'armed' combat skills.


In short: just cause bare-handed combat and combat with brass knuckles use the same skill and motions for attack DOES NOT mean both are 'unarmed' attacks.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #29 on: <02-24-16/2221:54> »
CC, it is really quite simple. Killing hands and the associated powers affect your body. Knucks are not your body. For the same reason, you can't use Killing Hands with Cyberspurs, which are also a weapon that uses the unarmed attack skill. So any power that boosts your 'unarmed attack' only works with your body's natural attacks. However, powers, ware, and other things that augment the SKILLS, LIMITS, or ABILITIES involved DO work with Knucks.

As for the rules as intended? You're new to Shadowrun, I believe, so I'll just tell you that this is how the rules have worked since at least 4th edition.
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