[ZeConster]

You're misrepresenting the premise: a spirit on good terms will have no issues with deciding to use that Fireball on its own.

Fine, so in game terms, a spirit on good terms with a summoner is essentially an extension of the summoner's will.

No.

[sn0mm1s]

You're misrepresenting the premise: a spirit on good terms will have no issues with deciding to use that Fireball on its own.

Fine, so in game terms, a spirit on good terms with a summoner is essentially an extension of the summoner's will.

No.

Then do you disagree or agree with the rest of the post? This is a really simple concept.

Premise: Summoner on good terms summons a Spirit of Man with Fireball and Fear, all the below are in the same combat and the spirit isn't being abused or put in danger any more than anyone else.

Fight for me
Cast Fireball on mage
Use Fear on troll
Cast Fireball on guard 1
Use Fear on guard 2

All in the same combat and it costs 1 service total.

[ZeConster]

The only simple concept here is how you keep trying to make us choose between two extremes.

[sn0mm1s]

The only simple concept here is how you keep trying to make us choose between two extremes.

It is really just a "yes" or "no" question. What I posted isn't an extreme - it is pretty much what happens when an out of the box summoner summons his first spirit in combat. PCs on horribly bad terms with spirits is an extreme.

[ZeConster]

The only simple concept here is how you keep trying to make us choose between two extremes.

It is really just a "yes" or "no" question. What I posted isn't an extreme - it is pretty much what happens when an out of the box summoner summons his first spirit in combat. PCs on horribly bad terms with spirits is an extreme.

It is not a "yes" or "no" question, and you didn't ask one either. You're asking us to choose between two extremes: the spirit will fight as ineffectively as possible unless you spend services on direct commands that will require a service each; and the spirit will serve as an extension of the summoner's will, blindly following every command in battle without it taking up a single service (beyond the initial "Combat" service, of course). The truth, however, is more complicated, as people have been trying to explain for 7+ pages.

[Michael Chandra]

Either you offer suggestions/requests that the GM decides whether the Spirit will follow or ignore, or you command it to explicitly use a specific Power and pay a service to make sure it does that. If you're not spending a service, the GM decides.

[RHat]

It is not a yes or no question.  There's a huge amount of space between "fights you at every turn" and "extension of your will".

[Michael Chandra]

Let's say you got a security team existing out of loyal dumb guards, an annoying cocky mage and a drone. We put a Rigger in command of the team. The drone is pretty much an extension of his will, following his every command. The guards will follow his suggestions unless they go "whoa, no, you crazy?" The cocky mage will make up his own mind and blatantly ignore any requests made by the Rigger unless the Rigger pulls rank. A Spirit isn't like the Drone here.

[Beaumis]

No one would summon spirits, if, on good terms, they would act this way. And, if they are truly independent NPCs there is no reason why they can't.

No GM worth his salt would play a spirit the way you described for a player in good standing with the spirit world. Your example is loaded towards either a pissy GM who wants to annoy the player or a magician on bad terms with the spirit world. Spirits like being in the world. They have no reason to make you burn services unless they like working for you less than they like being in the world.

You're misrepresenting the premise: a spirit on good terms will have no issues with deciding to use that Fireball on its own.

Fine, so in game terms, a spirit on good terms with a summoner is essentially an extension of the summoner's will.

You are disregarding the most important interpretation of the magical theory behind summoning. There is some undefined force that allows a summoner to compel a spirit, but the spirit does have a lot of leeway in what exactly it interprets as an order. The exact same phrasing in the exact same situation might expend a service for one spirit and not for another. The same spirit could be in the exact same situation and receive the exact same phrasing of a "command" and determine its illocutionary force based on its disposition towards the summoner.

The rules do not complicate this issue with exact definitions because they assume that the spirit is run by the GM and the GM can at any point override the rules. But the ultimate lesson of spirits in shadowrun has always been the same: Its not the magician that defines the terms of the spirit/ mage relationship, its the spirit. A spirit can dislike you for your hair-color as easily as it can dislike you for your actions. They are independent beings, complete with quirks and habits.

Frankly, the best way to look at spirits is to consider them contacts with a variable loyalty rating depending on your past dealings with the spirit world and blackmail material called services. If the loyalty is high, you won't have to blackmail him (though you pay him some). If he hates your guts, you'll have to strong arm him.

[sn0mm1s]

No one would summon spirits, if, on good terms, they would act this way. And, if they are truly independent NPCs there is no reason why they can't.

No GM worth his salt would play a spirit the way you described for a player in good standing with the spirit world. Your example is loaded towards either a pissy GM who wants to annoy the player or a magician on bad terms with the spirit world. Spirits like being in the world. They have no reason to make you burn services unless they like working for you less than they like being in the world.

You're misrepresenting the premise: a spirit on good terms will have no issues with deciding to use that Fireball on its own.

Fine, so in game terms, a spirit on good terms with a summoner is essentially an extension of the summoner's will.

You are disregarding the most important interpretation of the magical theory behind summoning. There is some undefined force that allows a summoner to compel a spirit, but the spirit does have a lot of leeway in what exactly it interprets as an order. The exact same phrasing in the exact same situation might expend a service for one spirit and not for another. The same spirit could be in the exact same situation and receive the exact same phrasing of a "command" and determine its illocutionary force based on its disposition towards the summoner.

The rules do not complicate this issue with exact definitions because they assume that the spirit is run by the GM and the GM can at any point override the rules. But the ultimate lesson of spirits in shadowrun has always been the same: Its not the magician that defines the terms of the spirit/ mage relationship, its the spirit. A spirit can dislike you for your hair-color as easily as it can dislike you for your actions. They are independent beings, complete with quirks and habits.

Frankly, the best way to look at spirits is to consider them contacts with a variable loyalty rating depending on your past dealings with the spirit world and blackmail material called services. If the loyalty is high, you won't have to blackmail him (though you pay him some). If he hates your guts, you'll have to strong arm him.

This is all well and good - and fluffwise I don't have a problem with it. But is still doesn't answer the hypothetical:

Premise: Summoner on good terms summons a Spirit of Man with Fireball and Fear, all the below are in the same combat and the spirit isn't being abused or put in danger any more than anyone else.

Fight for me
Cast Fireball on mage
Use Fear on troll
Cast Fireball on guard 1
Use Fear on guard 2

How many services is this? Don't say "depends" because I gave all the relevant data in the premise. If you need more clarity assume it is in favor of the summoner. You are the GM - is this 1 service or 5?

[ZeConster]

In that overly simplistic example where the Magician decides to micro-manage the spirit like that, it's 5 services - his own fault for not trusting the spirit to handle things properly on its own. Heck, with that level of micro-managing, the "Fight for me" service is redundant.

[Beaumis]

How many services is this? Don't say "depends" because I gave all the relevant data in the premise. If you need more clarity assume it is in favor of the summoner. You are the GM - is this 1 service or 5?

Your example lacks the most relevant of all data, the context. Also: tone of voice.

Your example cannot be answered with a simple number because it lacks necessary information. How many passes are we talking about? What are the initiative scores and how many rounds of combat? Is there a difference in the initiative scores, i.E. does the spirit have more passes than the mage and has to act on its own because the mage cannot give the orders subsequently? All this affects the answer.

That being said, assuming your mage summoned The Neutral President of the Neutral Planet, the mage and the spirit have identical initiative scores, the mage always acts before spirit, combat ends after four passes, there are no additional combatants, the mage polishes his nails and each use of a power incapacitates the target to the point of being considered defeated, then the answer is four services because the spirit does not really fight. There may be a fight going on around it, but as far as the spirit is concerned, it is performing four subsequent "Use Power" services because it makes no choices whatsoever.

(To illustrate my stance on this, if a spirit happens to be materialized when a fight breaks out, it does not automatically waste a service just because it gets shot at and resist damage. Once you tell it to participate, it "enters" combat and it costs you a service. Until then, its just there, trying to look inconspicuous.)

If combat takes five rounds and the spirit actually gets to do something between "fight for me" and "cast fireball on mage" then the answer is five because it gets to make its own choices for that one pass. It may or may not use powers, depending on whether or not it seems like a good idea from its perspective. The same applies if the magician stops giving orders after "use fear on guard 2" and combat lasts for more passes than four.

I know you want to hear "one" for both of these examples, but we've been over that. Be both think our interpretation is RAW and we have both stated our cases to an exhausting extend. We both see the others arguments as not sufficiently valid to change our positions. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Top Dog]

This is all well and good - and fluffwise I don't have a problem with it. But is still doesn't answer the hypothetical:

Premise: Summoner on good terms summons a Spirit of Man with Fireball and Fear, all the below are in the same combat and the spirit isn't being abused or put in danger any more than anyone else.

Fight for me
Cast Fireball on mage
Use Fear on troll
Cast Fireball on guard 1
Use Fear on guard 2

How many services is this? Don't say "depends" because I gave all the relevant data in the premise. If you need more clarity assume it is in favor of the summoner. You are the GM - is this 1 service or 5?

Since this is the rules subforum, let's talk about it mechanically.

Commanding a spirit is a simple action. Did the summoner:

• Give one command, "Fight for me", and then tell the spirit through ordinary (for a spirit) means what tactics to use? 1 service. The spirit will probably follow orders if he doesn't have good reasons not to, but he isn't required to.
• Give 5 commands, as detailed above? 5 services. The spirit will do exactly as the summoner commands, and if there's still actions left over after that fight as best as he can.
• Give 4 commands to use powers? 4 services. Combat will likely be over at the end, but if it isn't, the spirit won't fight any further.

There's hard rulebook support for there being a difference between a service command and a suggestion to a spirit. The only real question is if a spirit will at all listen to suggestions from it's master when it comes to power use, or if each specific power must always be commanded. As I said earlier in this topic, I'd rule that spirits will generally listen to their summoner's suggestions in combat unless there's a reason not to (including, but not limited to, not liking the summoner) - but that's ultimately a GM call.

[Unahim]

Either you offer suggestions/requests that the GM decides whether the Spirit will follow or ignore, or you command it to explicitly use a specific Power and pay a service to make sure it does that. If you're not spending a service, the GM decides.

This!

/thread