[zekim]

Guidelines are useful. However, if there is an assumption that runs are completed in one session and sessions are about four hours long - then this should have been stated. Without knowing this I interpreted the guidelines as indicating about 2 karma per session. Apparently the intent is about 5 karma. As a customer I regard this as a failure in clarity of the SR5 core rulebook.

That is an assumption that other poster are making.  A Run is a Run is a Run.  Doesn't matter if it take 1 session, 1/2 session, or 20 sessions.  The length of the Run is up to the Players and GM.

[Medicineman]

characters should be earning an average of 4-5 Karma per adventure and no more than 10 karma.

Oh ,You mean the Sentence that was Copy-pasted from SR3 ? Go Check it out its the same Sentence that was printed in SR3 Years ago for the Karma Rewards of SR3
We rather stick to that which is from & for SR4A (The Table )instead of old Burdens from SR3 that where copied without a thought (the remnant from SR3)


HougH!
Medicineman

[spuwdsda]

Guidelines are useful. However, if there is an assumption that runs are completed in one session and sessions are about four hours long - then this should have been stated. Without knowing this I interpreted the guidelines as indicating about 2 karma per session. Apparently the intent is about 5 karma. As a customer I regard this as a failure in clarity of the SR5 core rulebook.

That is an assumption that other poster are making.  A Run is a Run is a Run.  Doesn't matter if it take 1 session, 1/2 session, or 20 sessions.  The length of the Run is up to the Players and GM.

Imo the point of this guideline is to indicate a reasonable progression rate. If players get the same Karma for a twenty session run as a half session run then... Let's say my players wouldn't accept this.

But thanks. You illustrate my point perfectly. If the author's intention conformed to the 'missions' standard, he really should have stated it.

[Mantis]

I'm with you MedicineMan. There is little point in following that 'suggestion' of 5 karma per run with no more than 10 when, if you take even a conservative reading of the karma award table, you end up giving out more than that. Our sessions run about 6 hours and, if we complete the adventure in that sitting then we get between 8-10 karma. If it is a multi-session adventure, then the reward is higher. Hell, the Missions rewards completely ignore the Threat reward from the table when giving out karma and cap the individual play reward at 3 points. I understand why they do this, but using it as a basis for reward in anything other than the very controlled context of the Missions adventures is silly. It seems 5th edition has decided that about 5 points is going to be all you get though and hasn't provided anything other than a slight bonus if you act as a robin hood which also results in a loss of pay. I think this is silly and will be using the 4th edition reward table for my games. I want to see my player's characters improve at something other than a glacial pace.

[Reaver]

the bigger problem here is the level of ROLE play happening I believe.

If you have a well structured mission for your team, it really shouldn't take more then 2 hours for all the dice rolling, calculations, and number crunching to wrap up. (if you have more then 2 hours of rolling dice, time to scale things back a bit!!) that leaves 2 hours for the actual social interactions (role-play).

But, some people take longer... I have had entire games sessions wasted as the players discuss each and every option available to them for over a dozen different scenarios that could come in the run.... In short, they over planned, over thought the run. Not to mention blew most of the run reward on gear they actually had no need to use. (like hang gliders!)

of course YMMV, but that is up to the GM to help control and monitor....


It's like in DnD when you have that player that insists on visiting EVERY blacksmith in a Water Deep looking for that extra copper piece for that rusty battleaxe he took from a Kobald.... even though you tell straight to his face, that he will only get <x> amount.

[Mantis]

Ugh. I too have watched sessions go down the tubes due to over planning or arguing over which plan to use. I instituted an egg timer for the planning phase and when it ran out, they just went with what they had. A poor plan that actually gets used is infinity better than a great plan that never gets put into action.
But never mind that. We were arguing over how much the 5th ed karma system sucks/rules/is the same as 4th. Stop trying to distract me with anecdotes. It won't work I tell you.

[Reaver]

ok fine.

Bascially the rewards work great if you stick to the 4hour per run ratio...

but can fall apart if your group is too ROLEy or over plans.... at which time the GM has to step in and decide how much karma the players should give.


Now, I don't run missions, I run campaigns... and they can stretch for years IRL.... but before I sit down with my players, I have an itemized list of objectives for their current run, plus an itemized list for the campaign plot (yes, they are separate)...

As the players play, I check off the objectives and at the end of the night give Karma based on how many objectives from each list they have completed..

Some days that is 4 karma, some days that is 20 karma.... 

[Crunch]

characters should be earning an average of 4-5 Karma per adventure and no more than 10 karma.

Oh ,You mean the Sentence that was Copy-pasted from SR3 ? Go Check it out its the same Sentence that was printed in SR3 Years ago for the Karma Rewards of SR3
We rather stick to that which is from & for SR4A (The Table )instead of old Burdens from SR3 that where copied without a thought (the remnant from SR3)


HougH!
Medicineman

And you're welcome to house rule it if you want to, but complaining that the following edition (which actually raised karma awards over that level) isn't as generous as your house rule seems bizarre.

[spuwdsda]

Let's take the example given in SR5 page 354 and do maths!

P354 "For example, say the gamemaster decides the players should be able to advance a minor skill or purchase a minor piece of equipment every run, and raise a major skill or purchase a major piece of equipment every three runs."

So what does this mean in karma terms?

Advance a minor skill from level 3 to 4 = 20 karma
Advance a major skill from 6 to 7 = 56 karma

Taking the above text exactly as written - note the use of AND in particular.

This gives 20 + 20 + 20 + 56 = 116 Karma in three runs! So this is 39 karma per run. This  should be enough for most groups...

[Crunch]

Raising a skill from 3 to 4 costs 8 Karma. Raising a skill from 6 to 7 costs 14 karma.

So if you're getting 5 Karma a session you would be able to raise a skill from 6 to 7 every three sessions.

(The numbers you listed would be for skill groups)

[Medicineman]

characters should be earning an average of 4-5 Karma per adventure and no more than 10 karma.

Oh ,You mean the Sentence that was Copy-pasted from SR3 ? Go Check it out its the same Sentence that was printed in SR3 Years ago for the Karma Rewards of SR3
We rather stick to that which is from & for SR4A (The Table )instead of old Burdens from SR3 that where copied without a thought (the remnant from SR3)


HougH!
Medicineman

And you're welcome to house rule it if you want to, but complaining that the following edition (which actually raised karma awards over that level) isn't as generous as your house rule seems bizarre.

I don't Mind repeating it a second Time
I'm NOT (!) using any houserules.
For my SR4A Gametables we're using the RAW SR4A Karma Table
And we get an average of 7-10 Karma which is quite normal if You consider the (Oficial !) Table from Pg 313 German BBB

So Your exclamation

The awards for 5E actually aren't any lower than 4E. In 4E you were getting 3-4 Karma per run plus individual awards. ...

is just plain wrong !
You can get only 3-4 Karma for a small /short Run ,but you could as well receive 10-12 Karma for a big/dangerous Run
And thats all I wanted to say/write

with a karmic Dance
Medicineman

[Crunch]

characters should be earning an average of 4-5 Karma per adventure and no more than 10 karma.

Oh ,You mean the Sentence that was Copy-pasted from SR3 ? Go Check it out its the same Sentence that was printed in SR3 Years ago for the Karma Rewards of SR3
We rather stick to that which is from & for SR4A (The Table )instead of old Burdens from SR3 that where copied without a thought (the remnant from SR3)


HougH!
Medicineman

And you're welcome to house rule it if you want to, but complaining that the following edition (which actually raised karma awards over that level) isn't as generous as your house rule seems bizarre.

I don't Mind repeating it a second Time
I'm NOT (!) using any houserules.
For my SR4A Gametables we're using the RAW SR4A Karma Table
And we get an average of 7-10 Karma which is quite normal if You consider the (Oficial !) Table from Pg 313 German BBB

So Your exclamation

The awards for 5E actually aren't any lower than 4E. In 4E you were getting 3-4 Karma per run plus individual awards. ...

is just plain wrong !
You can get only 3-4 Karma for a small /short Run ,but you could as well receive 10-12 Karma for a big/dangerous Run
And thats all I wanted to say/write

with a karmic Dance
Medicineman

Ignoring the instruction in the book to average 4-5 karma and give no more than 10 is a house rule, no matter how many times you bold RAW.

[spuwdsda]

Raising a skill from 3 to 4 costs 8 Karma. Raising a skill from 6 to 7 costs 14 karma.

So if you're getting 5 Karma a session you would be able to raise a skill from 6 to 7 every three sessions.

(The numbers you listed would be for skill groups)

Not quite, I was looking at the Karma Advancement of Skills table on p107...  I see now that this table lists the cost of buying the skill from zero. You have to look in the text on p105 for this.

However, the maths becomes: 8 + 8 + 8 + 14 = 38

This is still about 13 karma per run.

[Medicineman]

Ignoring the instruction in the book to average 4-5 karma and give no more than 10 is a house rule, no matter how many times you bold RAW.

It isn't even a Houserule !
A Houserule is a Rule You make up so that it fits the gamingstyle at your table.
F.E. using 4s,5s, and 6s as a Hit instead of just 5s and 6s would be a Houserule.
Deciding to use the right table and ignoring a copy-pasted Rule from a former Edition is in NO WAY a Houserule
no matter how many times you write that down

Hough!
Medicineman

[Michael Chandra]

I think that's supposed to be an or, and minor more like a skill from 2 to 3. So more like 6 karma per run.



Ignoring a rule is still a houserule, really.