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[5E] Cyberlimbs and Limits, A thought process in progress.

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Chrona

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« on: <08-16-13/1047:06> »
I will add to this as my brain continues to wrap around it's implications. Thanks Aaron for the great FAQ thread!

Q. My Attributes are 1/1/1 in respect to Physical Limit, making my Limit 2. I have one Cyberarm that is 9/9/9. I do an action using only that arm, that requires physical limit. What is my Limit for that roll?

Your limit is 2.


So, compiling what I'm currently thinking, in order. I am merely stating things, dont assume i have a problem with any of this.
  • Limbs are great for shooting, or anything else that might get Physical limit superseded by Accuracy or another limit.
  • Limbs are there for increasing dicepools, increasing the chance for you to hit the top end of your limit.
  • Min Maxing with Cyberlimbs is a pointless endeavor to an Unarmed/Throwing Weapons character now.
  • In universe wise, this means that it wouldn't be feasible to assume a cybered up rich kid or a newly chipped, druggie burn out, with their untrained and possibly damaged meat having been mostly replaced by top end 'ware actually can go toe to toe with that big Skraacha Ork they just pissed off.
  • A 4th Ed full body Cyber Sam and a 5th Ed full body Cyber Sam collide head on, the 4th Ed stands firm, the 5th Ed gets massive internal damage to his weak, internal meat torso.
  • A strong person with a cyberlimb can potentially do better than a weak person with the same cyberlimb.
  • Cyberlimbs are no longer "Better than Meat" in all cases. They are just more likely to outperform the meat.
« Last Edit: <10-07-13/1617:25> by Chrona »

Crunch

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« Reply #1 on: <08-16-13/1055:15> »
I'm really hoping someone higher up the food chain overrules Aaron on the Agility 1(9), cyberlimb issue. Every attack action except for unarmed and throwing will completely ignore the limit. Having cyberlimbs obey the same aug max limits as everything else would be a lot simpler. 

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: <08-16-13/1059:04> »
It would boost ranged attacks, yes, but not the rest. Inherent recoil compensation would be less, limits would be less, how much you can lift, how well you sneak and run, etc. And that for 84k.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

ZeConster

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« Reply #3 on: <08-16-13/1102:08> »
I'm really hoping someone higher up the food chain overrules Aaron on the Agility 1(9), cyberlimb issue. Every attack action except for unarmed and throwing will completely ignore the limit. Having cyberlimbs obey the same aug max limits as everything else would be a lot simpler.
Your stats aren't actually augmented by the cyberlimb, though, it just uses its own stats.
Also, cyberlimbs seem like they might be interesting for punching-spirits-is-so-last-year Unarmed Adepts: get Critical Strike (Unarmed Combat) and Enhanced Accuracy (Unarmed Combat), pump enough points into your physical attributes to get a base limit of 4 or 5, and max out the Strength and Agility in a cyberarm. Not a super option at chargen since you'd need Resources C or better (you'd have to go Human (1) and put a D in Skills or Attributes, so EDBAC or EABDC), but worth considering.

Crunch

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« Reply #4 on: <08-16-13/1104:26> »
It would boost ranged attacks, yes, but not the rest. Inherent recoil compensation would be less, limits would be less, how much you can lift, how well you sneak and run, etc. And that for 84k.

Ranged and armed melee attacks. And Agility, once again, doesn't factor into limits, recoil comp or lifting capacity. For 84K being able to boost an attribute 8 points on a core activity is ridiculously cheap.

Compare the cost to raise Agility or Strength by two with Cyber, or with Adept powers. Or with attribute points in chargen. Honestly Agi 1(5) or 1(4) would still be a heck of a deal (and stink of limburger) but it wwould at least fit within the framework of the editions augmentation limits.

ZeConster

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« Reply #5 on: <08-16-13/1119:08> »
Compare the cost to raise Agility or Strength by two with Cyber, or with Adept powers. Or with attribute points in chargen. Honestly Agi 1(5) or 1(4) would still be a heck of a deal (and stink of limburger) but it wwould at least fit within the framework of the editions augmentation limits.
A comparison like that is somewhat flawed, since a boost to your entire body is different from a single limb being better. Attribute Boost might be a better comparison (true, it's a temporary boost, and Attribute Boost (Strength) might not boost your melee damage, but the bonuses still apply to your entire body): Level 1 will give you +2 on the stat on average, for only 0.25 PP (which if you decide to convert it to foci costs would be 3k nuyen and 2 Karma).

Crunch

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« Reply #6 on: <08-16-13/1130:13> »
Just a fun fact. You would need to roll 24 dice (so magic 12 and Attribute Boost 12) on an attribute test to get the +8 on average that the cyberlimb is giving you, would suffer hideous drain, and you couldn't do it anyway because the attribute boost is still capped by the aug limit.

Comparing an attribute boost of 1 to a +8 to agility is nonsensical. I'm willing to consider the comparison between +2 full body agility through cyber, bio or magic (even though it's not really a comparison because, well the +8 for almost any attack is a huge issue) becasue at Agi 7 an elf with +2 Agi could get to the same pools as the Agi 1(9) Cyberlimb guy.

Of course the cyberlimb guy paid 84K for that, where the elf paid a racial priority, 6 Attribute points, and either more money and essence or 2 full power points and an adept power point.

It's just a poorly written rule (or interpretation, the belief that the cyberlimb is not covered by the aug max is based on a reading that I don't think is the correct one) and a hold over of one of the most broken aspects of 4E.

ZeConster

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« Reply #7 on: <08-16-13/1131:24> »
Comparing an attribute boost of 1 to a +8 to agility is nonsensical.
No more so than comparing the costs of a single cyberlimb to a +4 for the entire body.

Crunch

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« Reply #8 on: <08-16-13/1133:20> »
Comparing an attribute boost of 1 to a +8 to agility is nonsensical.
No more so than comparing the costs of a single cyberlimb to a +4 for the entire body.

Which is why I was comparing a single cyberlimb to +2 for the entire body.

ZeConster

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« Reply #9 on: <08-16-13/1137:01> »
Comparing an attribute boost of 1 to a +8 to agility is nonsensical.
No more so than comparing the costs of a single cyberlimb to a +4 for the entire body.
Which is why I was comparing a single cyberlimb to +2 for the entire body.
Oh. Well in that case, yes, my comparison of a temporary +2 to the entire body is 10% more nonsensical than your comparison.

Crunch

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« Reply #10 on: <08-16-13/1138:40> »
Comparing an attribute boost of 1 to a +8 to agility is nonsensical.
No more so than comparing the costs of a single cyberlimb to a +4 for the entire body.
Which is why I was comparing a single cyberlimb to +2 for the entire body.
Oh. Well in that case, yes, my comparison of a temporary +2 to the entire body is 10% more nonsensical than your comparison.

Excuse me?

Are you honestly arguing that Attribute Boost 1 is a comparable benefit to a Cyberlimb with 9 Agi on a Agi 1 character?

ZeConster

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« Reply #11 on: <08-16-13/1145:56> »
Are you honestly arguing that Attribute Boost 1 is a comparable benefit to a Cyberlimb with 9 Agi on a Agi 1 character?
...
No. I am not. But if you want to think I am, go ahead.



What I am saying is that cyberlimbs are a different kind of beast than augmentations or passive adept powers and spells - it's more like Attribute Boost, in that it offers part of the bonuses having your actual attribute at that level would give you. Therefore, solely doing a price comparison doesn't offer enough of the whole picture to base a judgment on.

Crunch

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« Reply #12 on: <08-16-13/1152:52> »
But even attribute boost is governed by the augmented maximum. The breakable thing about Cyberlimbs is that they're being interpreted (despit a total absence of text actually saying it) as not being governed by the max. That's what creates the Agi 1(9) guy.

If they were governed by the aug max, then Att boost 1 might be a fair comparison, unfortunately they're being interpreted as not being governed.

If Cyberlimbs were governed by the Aug max you could compare a character with Agi 5(9) on his cyberlimb to a character with Agi 5 and an attribute boost of 1. Or a character with Agi 1(5) versus the character with Agi boost 1 and discuss the ramifications of better shooting dice versus better sneaking and gymnastics etc.

Allowing them to be separated from the Aug limit creates a situation where there is literally nothing to compare them to because that agi 1 guy can't get to agi 9 in any other way.

faket15

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« Reply #13 on: <08-16-13/1155:55> »
And forcing them to use the Augmented limits makes them pointless.

ZeConster

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« Reply #14 on: <08-16-13/1159:17> »
Again, it's a misnomer to call it an Agi 1(9) character - it's basically an Agi 1(whatever) character with an Agi 9(9) (or 6(9) if you count Enhancements as augmentations) cyberarm. It is for that reason that I don't see any support in the rules applying the augmentation limit to cyberlimb attributes - unless they rewrite or errata that section, I fully believe cyberlimbs are not limited by your actual natural attributes, just your maximum natural attributes. Now, I don't really have an opinion on whether it should be allowed, but I do believe people are downplaying the downsides.