Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Chrona on <08-16-13/1047:06>
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I will add to this as my brain continues to wrap around it's implications. Thanks Aaron for the great FAQ thread!
Q. My Attributes are 1/1/1 in respect to Physical Limit, making my Limit 2. I have one Cyberarm that is 9/9/9. I do an action using only that arm, that requires physical limit. What is my Limit for that roll?
Your limit is 2.
So, compiling what I'm currently thinking, in order. I am merely stating things, dont assume i have a problem with any of this.
- Limbs are great for shooting, or anything else that might get Physical limit superseded by Accuracy or another limit.
- Limbs are there for increasing dicepools, increasing the chance for you to hit the top end of your limit.
- Min Maxing with Cyberlimbs is a pointless endeavor to an Unarmed/Throwing Weapons character now.
- In universe wise, this means that it wouldn't be feasible to assume a cybered up rich kid or a newly chipped, druggie burn out, with their untrained and possibly damaged meat having been mostly replaced by top end 'ware actually can go toe to toe with that big Skraacha Ork they just pissed off.
- A 4th Ed full body Cyber Sam and a 5th Ed full body Cyber Sam collide head on, the 4th Ed stands firm, the 5th Ed gets massive internal damage to his weak, internal meat torso.
- A strong person with a cyberlimb can potentially do better than a weak person with the same cyberlimb.
- Cyberlimbs are no longer "Better than Meat" in all cases. They are just more likely to outperform the meat.
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I'm really hoping someone higher up the food chain overrules Aaron on the Agility 1(9), cyberlimb issue. Every attack action except for unarmed and throwing will completely ignore the limit. Having cyberlimbs obey the same aug max limits as everything else would be a lot simpler.
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It would boost ranged attacks, yes, but not the rest. Inherent recoil compensation would be less, limits would be less, how much you can lift, how well you sneak and run, etc. And that for 84k.
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I'm really hoping someone higher up the food chain overrules Aaron on the Agility 1(9), cyberlimb issue. Every attack action except for unarmed and throwing will completely ignore the limit. Having cyberlimbs obey the same aug max limits as everything else would be a lot simpler.
Your stats aren't actually augmented by the cyberlimb, though, it just uses its own stats.
Also, cyberlimbs seem like they might be interesting for punching-spirits-is-so-last-year Unarmed Adepts: get Critical Strike (Unarmed Combat) and Enhanced Accuracy (Unarmed Combat), pump enough points into your physical attributes to get a base limit of 4 or 5, and max out the Strength and Agility in a cyberarm. Not a super option at chargen since you'd need Resources C or better (you'd have to go Human (1) and put a D in Skills or Attributes, so EDBAC or EABDC), but worth considering.
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It would boost ranged attacks, yes, but not the rest. Inherent recoil compensation would be less, limits would be less, how much you can lift, how well you sneak and run, etc. And that for 84k.
Ranged and armed melee attacks. And Agility, once again, doesn't factor into limits, recoil comp or lifting capacity. For 84K being able to boost an attribute 8 points on a core activity is ridiculously cheap.
Compare the cost to raise Agility or Strength by two with Cyber, or with Adept powers. Or with attribute points in chargen. Honestly Agi 1(5) or 1(4) would still be a heck of a deal (and stink of limburger) but it wwould at least fit within the framework of the editions augmentation limits.
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Compare the cost to raise Agility or Strength by two with Cyber, or with Adept powers. Or with attribute points in chargen. Honestly Agi 1(5) or 1(4) would still be a heck of a deal (and stink of limburger) but it wwould at least fit within the framework of the editions augmentation limits.
A comparison like that is somewhat flawed, since a boost to your entire body is different from a single limb being better. Attribute Boost might be a better comparison (true, it's a temporary boost, and Attribute Boost (Strength) might not boost your melee damage, but the bonuses still apply to your entire body): Level 1 will give you +2 on the stat on average, for only 0.25 PP (which if you decide to convert it to foci costs would be 3k nuyen and 2 Karma).
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Just a fun fact. You would need to roll 24 dice (so magic 12 and Attribute Boost 12) on an attribute test to get the +8 on average that the cyberlimb is giving you, would suffer hideous drain, and you couldn't do it anyway because the attribute boost is still capped by the aug limit.
Comparing an attribute boost of 1 to a +8 to agility is nonsensical. I'm willing to consider the comparison between +2 full body agility through cyber, bio or magic (even though it's not really a comparison because, well the +8 for almost any attack is a huge issue) becasue at Agi 7 an elf with +2 Agi could get to the same pools as the Agi 1(9) Cyberlimb guy.
Of course the cyberlimb guy paid 84K for that, where the elf paid a racial priority, 6 Attribute points, and either more money and essence or 2 full power points and an adept power point.
It's just a poorly written rule (or interpretation, the belief that the cyberlimb is not covered by the aug max is based on a reading that I don't think is the correct one) and a hold over of one of the most broken aspects of 4E.
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Comparing an attribute boost of 1 to a +8 to agility is nonsensical.
No more so than comparing the costs of a single cyberlimb to a +4 for the entire body.
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Comparing an attribute boost of 1 to a +8 to agility is nonsensical.
No more so than comparing the costs of a single cyberlimb to a +4 for the entire body.
Which is why I was comparing a single cyberlimb to +2 for the entire body.
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Comparing an attribute boost of 1 to a +8 to agility is nonsensical.
No more so than comparing the costs of a single cyberlimb to a +4 for the entire body.
Which is why I was comparing a single cyberlimb to +2 for the entire body.
Oh. Well in that case, yes, my comparison of a temporary +2 to the entire body is 10% more nonsensical than your comparison.
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Comparing an attribute boost of 1 to a +8 to agility is nonsensical.
No more so than comparing the costs of a single cyberlimb to a +4 for the entire body.
Which is why I was comparing a single cyberlimb to +2 for the entire body.
Oh. Well in that case, yes, my comparison of a temporary +2 to the entire body is 10% more nonsensical than your comparison.
Excuse me?
Are you honestly arguing that Attribute Boost 1 is a comparable benefit to a Cyberlimb with 9 Agi on a Agi 1 character?
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Are you honestly arguing that Attribute Boost 1 is a comparable benefit to a Cyberlimb with 9 Agi on a Agi 1 character?
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No. I am not. But if you want to think I am, go ahead.
What I am saying is that cyberlimbs are a different kind of beast than augmentations or passive adept powers and spells - it's more like Attribute Boost, in that it offers part of the bonuses having your actual attribute at that level would give you. Therefore, solely doing a price comparison doesn't offer enough of the whole picture to base a judgment on.
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But even attribute boost is governed by the augmented maximum. The breakable thing about Cyberlimbs is that they're being interpreted (despit a total absence of text actually saying it) as not being governed by the max. That's what creates the Agi 1(9) guy.
If they were governed by the aug max, then Att boost 1 might be a fair comparison, unfortunately they're being interpreted as not being governed.
If Cyberlimbs were governed by the Aug max you could compare a character with Agi 5(9) on his cyberlimb to a character with Agi 5 and an attribute boost of 1. Or a character with Agi 1(5) versus the character with Agi boost 1 and discuss the ramifications of better shooting dice versus better sneaking and gymnastics etc.
Allowing them to be separated from the Aug limit creates a situation where there is literally nothing to compare them to because that agi 1 guy can't get to agi 9 in any other way.
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And forcing them to use the Augmented limits makes them pointless.
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Again, it's a misnomer to call it an Agi 1(9) character - it's basically an Agi 1(whatever) character with an Agi 9(9) (or 6(9) if you count Enhancements as augmentations) cyberarm. It is for that reason that I don't see any support in the rules applying the augmentation limit to cyberlimb attributes - unless they rewrite or errata that section, I fully believe cyberlimbs are not limited by your actual natural attributes, just your maximum natural attributes. Now, I don't really have an opinion on whether it should be allowed, but I do believe people are downplaying the downsides.
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And forcing them to use the Augmented limits makes them pointless.
Not really. If you have Agility and Strength 5, it's 126k for +2 Str and Agi, while it's 84k for one arm that has a +4/+4, which unlike +4 Strength and +4 Agility is available at chargen.
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And forcing them to use the Augmented limits makes them pointless.
Why? Why would having having an Agi of 6 and a cyberlimb with an Agi of 9 be pointless?
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Again, it's a misnomer to call it an Agi 1(9) character - it's basically an Agi 1(whatever) character with an Agi 9(9) (or 6(9) if you count Enhancements as augmentations) cyberarm. It is for that reason that I don't see any support in the rules applying the augmentation limit to cyberlimb attributes - unless they rewrite or errata that section, I fully believe cyberlimbs are not limited by your actual natural attributes, just your maximum natural attributes. Now, I don't really have an opinion on whether it should be allowed, but I do believe people are downplaying the downsides.
Just chiming in to say I agree with this.
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Again, it's a misnomer to call it an Agi 1(9) character - it's basically an Agi 1(whatever) character with an Agi 9(9) (or 6(9) if you count Enhancements as augmentations) cyberarm. It is for that reason that I don't see any support in the rules applying the augmentation limit to cyberlimb attributes - unless they rewrite or errata that section, I fully believe cyberlimbs are not limited by your actual natural attributes, just your maximum natural attributes. Now, I don't really have an opinion on whether it should be allowed, but I do believe people are downplaying the downsides.
My issue is that nothing in the cyberlimb rules exempts them from this passage.
First, when purchasing augmentations
such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute
rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an
augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being
raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the
attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no
point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap.
Unless you presume that the Cyberlimb is a completely separate character with separate stats. The reading being put forward (and of course Aaron's opinion has more weight than mine) is based on this.
Customization: You can have your cyberlimb tailored
and customized to your frame and musculature. Customization
lets you add to your limb’s base Strength and/or
Agility ratings. Each increase of either attribute increases
the limb’s Availability and cost. If either of your limb’s attributes
are increased beyond your natural maximum for
that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo
it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements. You
customize your cyberlimb when you buy it; you can’t customize
it after purchase, but you can add enhancements.
But I'd note that every clause of that could come into play without breaching the Aug rule, which is not specifically overwritten by the cyberarm mod.
For instance a human Samurai with Strength 6 and Muscle replacement 2 could customize his cyberlimb to strength 6 (if he went to 8 it would be over the natural max and unusable) and then enhance his arm 3 points to strength 9 which would not breach the aug cap.
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well, this thread continued while i was gone.
I dont really mind the limit, it just means getting muscle augs might be my go to mod now.
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It says attribute "bonus". The Cyberlimb is not an attribute bonus, it is an attribute replacement. It does not follow the same rules.
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Which is one interprtation, but that's not explicitly stated anywhere.
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"Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings."
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"Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings."
Yes they do. However it's not stated that they're treated as seperate entities from the player wearing them, which would be required to exempt them from the Aug maximum.
Certainly Aaron has chimed in (in favor of your reading), and I'm certain that Bull will too (although I hold out hope that his reading will be different).
I think there's enough ambiguity in the wording that the Aug limit could be read as applying, and I hope that's the case. I personally don't think it's a better game if we're flooded with Agility one characters with Agility 9 Cyberarms out shooting the Samurai's and Adepts who actually can't afford the negative effects of a 1 agility, but YMMV.
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Crunch I agree. However this just occured to me. Customized is to your fame and musculature. To me this says you customize to your base stats (assuming no other ware for the sake of example). A person with st1 ag1 would actually lose points on a cyberlimb if customized. That may be part of why it works the way aaron is stating (assuming he is correct).
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And this is the reason I hate cyber limbs (and all their) assorted fluff.
Read it one way, and you screw the cyberlimb character...
Read it an other way, you screw the other players....
Reason for Edit: < there are not enough words in the English language to express my frustration and malice towards the Apple employee that programmed the "auto-correct, auto-spelling, functions on the iphone4>
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Lessee... a single 9/9 Obvious cyberarm for a Human/Dwarf/Ork costs 84k and 1 Essence (63k and 1.25 Used), while 2 cost 168k and 2 Essence (or 126k and 2.5). Assuming 4E's rules on handed-ness apply whereever 5E doesn't mention them:
One-handed melee weapons: all knives, forearm snap-blades, sword
Two-handed melee weapons: combat axe, katana, pole arm
One-handed ranged weapons: throwing knives, crossbows (I think?), tasers/pistols, machine pistols and SMGs (and cyberarm users might get less free recoil compensation, if you average it out or use your main body's stats instead of assuming it's solely your arm that handles the recoil)
Two-handed ranged weapons: bows, assault rifles, sniper rifles, shotguns, machine guns, cannons/launchers
Non-combat Agility-based skills you only need one limb for: Palming
Non-combat Agility-based skills you need more than one limb for: Escape Artist (unless they handcuff a single limb to something, and then your Physical limit still applies), Gymnastics, Sneaking
Non-combat Strength-based skills you need more than one limb for: Running, Climbing (part of Gymnastics), Swimming, Lifting
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And of course, if you have low strength and 1 cyberarm for your one-handed weapon, your physical limit will still suck for a lot of stuff.
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Non-combat Agility-based skills you only need one limb for: Palming
Non-combat Agility-based skills you need more than one limb for: Escape Artist (unless they handcuff a single limb to something, and then your Physical limit still applies), Gymnastics, Sneaking
Non-combat Strength-based skills you need more than one limb for: Running, Climbing (part of Gymnastics), Swimming, Lifting
Of course based on what Aaron says, all of the skills here will still be using his natural Physical limit and so the Limbs are only helping your pool Size for them.
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I fully believe cyberlimbs are not limited by your actual natural attributes, just your maximum natural attributes. Now, I don't really have an opinion on whether it should be allowed, but I do believe people are downplaying the downsides.
While that may well be the official interpretation in this edition, this was patently untrue in 2nd Edition(possibly 3rd, I'd have to go look through my books). In 2nd, Cybertechnology specifically discussed WHY there were limits on a cyberlimb. It's simple physics. The shoulder is still meat. The pectoral muscle is still meat. The entire frame is still meat. Sure, you CAN make a cyberarm that can curl 200 kg. Now what happens if someone with a 70 kg. frame tries to use that cyberlimb like that? It rips free, taking a good chunk of the shoulder and chest anchoring with it. Probably killing the person and definitely not achieving the desired result. You used to have to pay additional essence to go above the natural limit as it required replacing more and more of the shoulder/back/chest areas with 'ware to support the limb.
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Curl? As in the winter olympics sport? Wouldn't that require averaging in 4e and 5e, since you're using your legs and your torso for balance?
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Non-combat Agility-based skills you only need one limb for: Palming
Non-combat Agility-based skills you need more than one limb for: Escape Artist (unless they handcuff a single limb to something, and then your Physical limit still applies), Gymnastics, Sneaking
Non-combat Strength-based skills you need more than one limb for: Running, Climbing (part of Gymnastics), Swimming, Lifting
Of course based on what Aaron says, all of the skills here will still be using his natural Physical limit and so the Limbs are only helping your pool Size for them.
But dumping Agility does nothing to your limit.
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Curl? As in the winter olympics sport? Wouldn't that require averaging in 4e and 5e, since you're using your legs and your torso for balance?
Hahahah...No no, a bicep curl. Now I've got images of someone with Kid Stealth cyberlegs and cyberskates(iceskates) doing olympic curling.
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The limb can't go past racial maximum and can only get +3 after being enhanced after that, so it's still within limits.
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Crunch I agree. However this just occured to me. Customized is to your fame and musculature. To me this says you customize to your base stats (assuming no other ware for the sake of example). A person with st1 ag1 would actually lose points on a cyberlimb if customized. That may be part of why it works the way aaron is stating (assuming he is correct).
There are a few of us who think that the "to your frame and musculature" means that, but some munchkin generally comes in and blasts whoever suggests it.
Good explanation for how I think is the proper reading:
Character A has a Body of 5, Agility of 4 and Strength of 4.
He buys a Cyber Arm and can customize it up to those values (but no higher), and then he can choose to enhance from there.
This does not in any way screw the Cyber Arm user, nor does it make that individual any better off than those who didn't take the Cyber Arm.
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But dumping Agility does nothing to your limit.
Correct... but i don't know why that's a reply to what I said? All i said was that Limbs will only be helping your dice pools for those skills and not the Limit. They all (I assume, correct me if i'm wrong) use the Natural Physical Limit, so someone with Cyberlimbs that have higher Str and Bod still wont get a higher limit for the skill tests. I wasn't talking about Agility.
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Character A has a Body of 5, Agility of 4 and Strength of 4.
He buys a Cyber Arm and can customize it up to those values (but no higher), and then he can choose to enhance from there.
I'm going to continue to go by what Aaron says, that custom limbs can have attributes over your current natural. Personally though, in 4th Ed, I usually never bought a custom limb with attributes higher than my own anyway (then enhanced from there)
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There are a few of us who think that the "to your frame and musculature" means that, but some munchkin generally comes in and blasts whoever suggests it.
Leaving aside that that is NOT what is written, you're actually calling us munchkins for that? Because bugger straight off if you're actually resorting to calling us names when I have always done my utmost best to not target you personally no matter how stubborn you were on an issue, targetting your arguments and never you. Either you apologize for calling us munchkins, or you prove we should never try to debate with you because you WILL decide to stoop to personal insults, and no matter how much you ask "I'm not rude am I?" the answer will then always be "yes, you are, and leave me alone".
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Not even sure how I can be a munchkin on this issue when I have no character that uses this, or any intent to make such a character.
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Not even sure how I can be a munchkin on this issue when I have no character that uses this, or any intent to make such a character.
Same here, but it's entirely possible A4BG wasn't talking about people on the forum, but people at the tables (of course, if it's not at his table, it's not like it affects him :P). But I do share his feeling of annoyance at munchkins who want everything yesterday: "Give us more nuyen from runs without increasing the run frequency or difficulty. Increase my chargen nuyen so I can have more vehicles and ware. Give me a 9/9 cyberarm." It's a little grating, I guess.
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I implore you all to use pms if you start to argue or need to personally disscuss harsh words instead of doing it in my thread. Anyone who wants to continue to talk, debate and disscuss cyberlimbs and limits can continue to do so. I'll stop back in after I sleep.
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Not even sure how I can be a munchkin on this issue when I have no character that uses this, or any intent to make such a character.
Same here, but it's entirely possible A4BG wasn't talking about people on the forum, but people at the tables (of course, if it's not at his table, it's not like it affects him :P). But I do share his feeling of annoyance at munchkins who want everything yesterday: "Give us more nuyen from runs without increasing the run frequency or difficulty. Increase my chargen nuyen so I can have more vehicles and ware. Give me a 9/9 cyberarm." It's a little grating, I guess.
There are a few of us who think that the "to your frame and musculature" means that, but some munchkin generally comes in and blasts whoever suggests it.
Leaving aside that that is NOT what is written, you're actually calling us munchkins for that? Because bugger straight off if you're actually resorting to calling us names when I have always done my utmost best to not target you personally no matter how stubborn you were on an issue, targetting your arguments and never you. Either you apologize for calling us munchkins, or you prove we should never try to debate with you because you WILL decide to stoop to personal insults, and no matter how much you ask "I'm not rude am I?" the answer will then always be "yes, you are, and leave me alone".
Until you all stop trying to say that those who want more generation (generation only--and only going to what was the maximum in 3rd at that) resources are somehow "wanting something for nothing" to open up more character ideas and apologize for even implying such, I'll apologize. Until then, you can "bugger straight off".
With that, I'm out of the thread.
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<counterrant start>
Until you all stop trying to say that those who want more generation (generation only--and only going to what was the maximum in 3rd at that) resources are somehow "wanting something for nothing" to open up more character ideas and apologize for even implying such
You are once again seeing things entirely too black-and-white, and misreading what other people are saying. I feel that if you say "if your players are looking for side income, [it always means] you are not paying them enough, so you should increase the payouts [even if you don't increase the run frequency or difficulty]", you are saying they should get something for nothing, and I will most definitely not apologize for saying that.
When it comes to SR5's chargen system, the fact is simply that I don't see the need for more nuyen on the priority levels: I don't see it as "wanting something for nothing" at all, I just see it as an immense misunderstanding - and yes, a little spoiled-ness, because they want to be able to get the same amount of gear when I feel you can make better and more balanced characters even with less gear - on the side of those who want more nuyen, and I will most definitely not apologize for saying that either.
Now, if I've upset you by poking a little fun at the large inconsistencies in your recent statements on things, then I do apologize for pushing things too far. However, I will most definitely not apologize for doing something I did not do, nor should I have to, especially to someone who uses the term "munchkin" so vaguely that a bunch of people who aren't being munchkinny at all, since they don't even use the part of the game that is being discussed, feel as if they are being targeted by the remark, then instead of either apologizing, explaining his statement, or explaining he did not mean to accuse them, posts that he feels that he should be apologized to first before he will apologize.
<counterrant end>
Now, regarding cyberlimbs and limits, I feel that everything that can be said, has been said. By RAW, they're not restricted by the augmentation limit of +4; they don't affect your physical limits; they have plenty of downsides, and if you don't feel the downsides are strong enough, you can always houserule them.
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Regardless of any names called, BigGuns interpreted it the exact same way I did as well as a few other people, I imagine.
pg. 456: You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature.
Now it does go on to say up to the maximum natural limits. But to me, that's a conflict immediately. Your natural limits is most definitely NOT your frame and musculature
I know we're dealing with sci-fi/fantasy here, but I think most of us expect some modest level of realism with regards to the sci-fi. Let's take a Strength 1 human. I'm going to use American measurements for ease, to save me the time of typing conversions repeatedly. A human with 1 strength is probably not capable of bench pressing 100 lbs. Probably 70 or so. Now let's take a 6 strength human. This individual might well be able to bench press 500 pounds. There is simply no way to justify an arm capable of the 500 pounds fitting in that person's 'frame and musculature'. The effects on both bone density, size, and muscle of weight lifting for extended periods of time can be pretty drastic. That arm would literally not fit in the other person's socket. Now technology could make something strong enough, small enough. But again, USING that arm would absolute destroy the surrounding muscle and bone as it is not accustomed to or equipped for the weight. I'm not trying to be combative here, nor argue that the official ruling is somehow unofficial. But I won't run it that way in my games for the reasons outlined here. Cyberlimbs are still incredibly powerful without being able to exceed the base stat +4.
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Regardless of any names called, BigGuns interpreted it the exact same way I did as well as a few other people, I imagine.
pg. 456: You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature.
Now it does go on to say up to the maximum natural limits. But to me, that's a conflict immediately. Your natural limits is most definitely NOT your frame and musculature
Cyberlimbs, SR4A:
Customized cyberlimbs: These limbs are tailored and customized to the intended user’s frame and musculature.
Back then, cyberlimbs could also be customized up to their owner's natural maximum: raising them further required enhancements (which went up to rating 7, and only cost 250xRating for Str/Agi, against 1500 per point for customization - both significantly cheaper than in 5th edition). So I don't think a line they copied from 4th edition somehow means something different in 5th.
Also, A4BG has said in a previous topic about cyberlimbs that although he feels they should work like that (customization only allowed up to current, instead of maximum, attribute rating), by the current rules they don't.
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So I don't think a line they copied from 4th edition somehow means something different in 5th.
Again, I'm not arguing the official interpretation. But the first mention I ever saw of frame and musculature was in 2nd edition. In that system, you started having to pay additional essence to exceed your natural maximum. To me, customized up to attribute then enhanced up to augmented max makes sense and is more consistent with other rules. Even if that interpretation is not the intent in this addition.
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Also, A4BG has said in a previous topic about cyberlimbs that although he feels they should work like that (customization only allowed up to current, instead of maximum, attribute rating), by the current rules they don't.
And they should be changed because as-is they encourage things like dumping Agility to 1 and maxing out the attribute on the limb. I don't care who you are, doing that is a very big munchkin move. At the very least it's a Rules-Lawyer-Finding-a-Loophole move.
And in the rest of your rant, the parts in brackets are things that get inserted. What I say is that if the players are carving up the corpses for their implants and stealing cars or whatever to supplement their income, then they probably don't think the payouts are enough for them to really have fun with the game (barring a few interesting points that come up aside from the runs).
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But dumping Agility does nothing to your limit.
Correct... but i don't know why that's a reply to what I said? All i said was that Limbs will only be helping your dice pools for those skills and not the Limit. They all (I assume, correct me if i'm wrong) use the Natural Physical Limit, so someone with Cyberlimbs that have higher Str and Bod still wont get a higher limit for the skill tests. I wasn't talking about Agility.
My point was that limits have no impact on Agi dumping, which is the most egregious case under the current rule set. The Agi 1(9) character will likely have HIGHER limits than another character with the same Att priority, as they're getting 8 free attribute points.
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My point was that limits have no impact on Agi dumping, which is the most egregious case under the current rule set. The Agi 1(9) character will likely have HIGHER limits than another character with the same Att priority, as they're getting 8 free attribute points.
Now i see what you mean, sorry i didn't realize you meant it like that! That is very true and a big loophole people could exploit.
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That is very true and a big loophole people could exploit.
Not that big a loophole, really.
Leaving aside that the character wouldn't be able to put 8 points in Agility in the first place: Given the costs of two cyberarms* (172k, 2 essence), instead you could get used muscle augmentation 3 and used muscle toner 3 for 1.5 essence and 141.75k. That's +3 Agi & +3 Str which also works on your limits and actually provides you with a dicepool modifier on things such as Sneaking. On top of that, this would be a more viable option for Trolls, since a cyberlimb with more than 14 attribute points in Strength+Agility isn't available at chargen.
So it's more like 5 extra attribute points, which come at a higher cost and don't boost your Agility-based and Strength-based dicepools. Plus your physical limit would be lower since your core Strength wouldn't be augmented. As such, I wouldn't call them free, nor a loophole. It's not really something I am comfortable with, but the costs, especially when comparing the limits factor on its alternatives, are big enough for this tactic to come at a price where it's no longer a loophole or a must-take.
*: For bigger weapons you'd need 2 cyberarms. Anything above an SMG basically.
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Also, A4BG has said in a previous topic about cyberlimbs that although he feels they should work like that (customization only allowed up to current, instead of maximum, attribute rating), by the current rules they don't.
And they should be changed because as-is they encourage things like dumping Agility to 1 and maxing out the attribute on the limb. I don't care who you are, doing that is a very big munchkin move. At the very least it's a Rules-Lawyer-Finding-a-Loophole move.
Ah, so you were only talking about the players who do that, not the people posting in the topic. You could've just explained so.
Anyway, my point was that unlike what Shade said, while your preference was the same as his, your interpretation of the rules was the same as mine.
And in the rest of your rant, the parts in brackets are things that get inserted. What I say is that if the players are carving up the corpses for their implants and stealing cars or whatever to supplement their income, then they probably don't think the payouts are enough for them to really have fun with the game (barring a few interesting points that come up aside from the runs).
It's not what you say, yes, which is why I put it inbetween brackets, but it's how you sound when your first reaction is "you should pay them more" without even asking for more information, when it's quite likely one player is simply really greedy and the rest just follows suit, and you even suggest adjusting run payment to the highest Lifestyle in the group, not the actual run difficulty.
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We have a house-rule Inherent Limit called Quickness, which uses ([agix2]+Rea+Str)/3 . It handles a few things that Physical used to do, like Dodge and some uses of Gymnastics and the like. I personally don't agree with it, but it does make 1 agi/9 agi cymberlimb characters far less desirable.
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For what it's worth, we deliberately decided to exempt cyberlimbs from the +4 cap to distinguish that augmentation approach from other augmentations. Of course, that decision doesn't prevent The Powers That Be from changing their mind about it,1 but it does put inertia firmly in the camp of the current interpretation.
In its defense, giving a limb its own stats opens up a lot more possibilities for options and expansions for future source books. I personally find it a stronger choice from a design perspective.
1Please don't lobbying the nice Catalyst folks about this or any other rule, partly because that's not how they make decisions, but mostly because they've got enough on their plates. Thanks.
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Not that big a loophole, really.
Leaving aside that the character wouldn't be able to put 8 points in Agility in the first place: Given the costs of two cyberarms* (172k, 2 essence), instead you could get used muscle augmentation 3 and used muscle toner 3 for 1.5 essence and 141.75k. That's +3 Agi & +3 Str which also works on your limits and actually provides you with a dicepool modifier on things such as Sneaking. On top of that, this would be a more viable option for Trolls, since a cyberlimb with more than 14 attribute points in Strength+Agility isn't available at chargen.
So it's more like 5 extra attribute points, which come at a higher cost and don't boost your Agility-based and Strength-based dicepools. Plus your physical limit would be lower since your core Strength wouldn't be augmented. As such, I wouldn't call them free, nor a loophole. It's not really something I am comfortable with, but the costs, especially when comparing the limits factor on its alternatives, are big enough for this tactic to come at a price where it's no longer a loophole or a must-take.
*: For bigger weapons you'd need 2 cyberarms. Anything above an SMG basically.
Ah yes the costs do make it seem more balanced, design wise.
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Personally they don't seem to go far enough. because the enhancements stop at 3. I'm less worried about the agility 1/9 guy than the deal that a humans max cyberlimb strength is 9 when other routes could get it to 10. A cyber limbs strength should be able to curb stomp a flesh based enhancement like muscle augmentation in terms of max strength. Agility I can see an argument for flesh beating machine but pure strength machine should trump flesh.
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That is very true and a big loophole people could exploit.
Leaving aside that the character wouldn't be able to put 8 points in Agility in the first place:
Which is the part of the cyberlimb rule that's most completely broken.
[/quote]
Given the costs of two cyberarms* (172k, 2 essence),
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*: For bigger weapons you'd need 2 cyberarms. Anything above an SMG basically.
[/quote]
Right but an SMGs exist so the proper comparison is to one cyberarm, as that's the point that the exploitation comes in.
So 8 Agi, that you cannot get in any other way, for 81,000 Nuyen and 1 Essence.
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the rules were written with a couple of fluff assumptions (I presume). For the sake of this example I am going to reference the Findler-Man (I think) bio in one of the cyberware splat books (second edition I think). In it he describes his early running life. The early upgrades (eyes and a thumb I think) were a result of the life (an accident and an injury...sort of). He goes on to say that some of it was chosen on purpose after that (smartlink and spurs) but much of it followed the early trend.
Most people get cyber limbs because theirs were damaged or destroyed. Someone healthy enough to take those risks intentionally as a job is not going to have 1's in physical stats.
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the rules were written with a couple of fluff assumptions (I presume). For the sake of this example I am going to reference the Findler-Man (I think) bio in one of the cyberware splat books (second edition I think). In it he describes his early running life. The early upgrades (eyes and a thumb I think) were a result of the life (an accident and an injury...sort of). He goes on to say that some of it was chosen on purpose after that (smartlink and spurs) but much of it followed the early trend.
Most people get cyber limbs because theirs were damaged or destroyed. Someone healthy enough to take those risks intentionally as a job is not going to have 1's in physical stats.
Hatchet man: the first recorded cyber zombie.
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Thank you for the correction. It's been awhile.
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For what it's worth, we deliberately decided to exempt cyberlimbs from the +4 cap to distinguish that augmentation approach from other augmentations. Of course, that decision doesn't prevent The Powers That Be from changing their mind about it,1 but it does put inertia firmly in the camp of the current interpretation.
In its defense, giving a limb its own stats opens up a lot more possibilities for options and expansions for future source books. I personally find it a stronger choice from a design perspective.
1Please don't lobbying the nice Catalyst folks about this or any other rule, partly because that's not how they make decisions, but mostly because they've got enough on their plates. Thanks.
So, that is official, that actions using Cyberlimbs do not use the Physical Limit that would be calculated using the stats of the Cyberlimb? Is this hard-set, or one mans opinion?
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Find this ruling odd. So what if they do Agility 1 and buff up their cyberlimbs to max. They still can't move worth crap? Or if they get legs too, they're basically eating into major Essence that can be used elsewhere, not to mention the extreme cost.
If someone has a 9/9/9 set of arms, paid full cost, and has agility 1, will suck for them when a grenade drops. Don't see why they need more limitations than that, when, as pointed out by the majority, Accuracy super cedes the physical limit, so it is only really punishing Unarmed users. Instead of getting Spurs, they'll get a compartment for a melee weapon and go sword/club/etc. Just doesn't make balancing sense, nor does it really make fluff sense.
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You can basically take 1 arm instead of full augmentations, and get all the extra options a cyberlimb gives you (limb armor, guns and such).
It doesn't only punish unarmed users though, it also hurts Sneaking and Palming, and your movement rates don't get boosted.
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You can basically take 1 arm instead of full augmentations, and get all the extra options a cyberlimb gives you (limb armor, guns and such).
It doesn't only punish unarmed users though, it also hurts Sneaking and Palming, and your movement rates don't get boosted.
Indeed. I mean, it is great for a pistol slinger (one hand weapon user/melee), but for the others you mentioned, yeah...really don't get why they would rule this.
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Because it is nice for specific uses, but not superior in every situation. It has upsides and it has downsides, which means you can make it an essential part of a build and sacrifice a few alternative benefits, while freeing up space for other things.
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For what it's worth, we deliberately decided to exempt cyberlimbs from the +4 cap to distinguish that augmentation approach from other augmentations. Of course, that decision doesn't prevent The Powers That Be from changing their mind about it,1 but it does put inertia firmly in the camp of the current interpretation.
In its defense, giving a limb its own stats opens up a lot more possibilities for options and expansions for future source books. I personally find it a stronger choice from a design perspective.
1Please don't lobbying the nice Catalyst folks about this or any other rule, partly because that's not how they make decisions, but mostly because they've got enough on their plates. Thanks.
So you think Agility 1 (9) is a good design choice?
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So you think Agility 1 (9) is a good design choice?
I don't see why people keep calling it 1(9) when it's nothing like that.
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So you think Agility 1 (9) is a good design choice?
I don't see why people keep calling it 1(9) when it's nothing like that.
Because it's very much like that. At the very least it's the equivalent of Improved Ability 8 (which is impossible) for every agility skill that can be preformed with one arm.
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The one issue I have with the reading on Limits is that "Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings"; so when calculating limits to use, why wouldn't you use the ratings for Strength and Agility that the limbs patently have? I can see where some people are coming from, that the limbs are attached to something, but a person with 4 limbs (2 arms and 2 legs) has not only spent around 4 essence, but also around 300-400k on the implants used to perform those tests with.
A character with cyberlimbs that grant Strength and Agility 9 uses that limb/those limbs for a test, you use the attribute of that limb. I do not see how it logically follows that the limit is not affected by this, as you use the attribute of the limb to perform the action, not your own.
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You simply have Limits, not limb-tied Limits. It's a restraint to how much you can do as a whole. If you replace all five limbs, maybe you can talk with your GM.
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The one issue I have with the reading on Limits is that "Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings"; so when calculating limits to use, why wouldn't you use the ratings for Strength and Agility that the limbs patently have? I can see where some people are coming from, that the limbs are attached to something, but a person with 4 limbs (2 arms and 2 legs) has not only spent around 4 essence, but also around 300-400k on the implants used to perform those tests with.
A character with cyberlimbs that grant Strength and Agility 9 uses that limb/those limbs for a test, you use the attribute of that limb. I do not see how it logically follows that the limit is not affected by this, as you use the attribute of the limb to perform the action, not your own.
think about it...
you have STR of 9... which (for arguments sake) lets you lift 1000lbs....
So you grab a bolder and heave it up...... your arms and legs can take it easy! What about your spine? Sure, your arms and legs help to lift it, to hold it, and to move it.... but it's your spine that have to bare the weight of the 1000 pounds pushing down on your shoulder joints, which are connected to your spine.... which crushes like an egg....
hence the rules that say for "total body" effort you use a modified value for augmented AND natural attributes.....
will it coming into play every time? probably not, but it should be a factor BOTH for the player AND the GM.....
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Michael; five limbs? I count four. If you include torso, shouldn't you also include head? I don't see torso and head as having Strength and Attribute ratings, though, since they both count as "shells" according to the rules:
Page 455:
"Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs)."
From an RAI standpoint, neither a cyberskull or a cybertorso, then, are considered limbs, and thus cannot be customized and/or enhanced as I see it. As per page 456 (emphasis mine):
"You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature. Customization lets you add to your limb’s base Strength and/or Agility ratings. Each increase of either attribute increases the limb’s Availability and cost. If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements. You customize your cyberlimb when you buy it; you can’t customize it after purchase, but you can add enhancements."
It seems pretty straight forward that the cybertorso and cyberskull, while included in the cyberlimb category, do not in fact count as limbs. This only leaves 2 arms and 2 legs; if these are the only limbs that count when calculating limits, it logically follows that if when a cyberlimb attribute is used in one of the three situations, the same attribute is used to determine the limit (individually, average, or weakest, depending on the test).
Reaver I wholly agree from a real life perspective, but this is not real life; the game mechanics only go so far. I could just as well argue that a customized cyberlimb actually goes further than just the shoulder socket, and that part of the surgery you pay for is in fact to strengthen the entire frame it is attached to.
Note that I do not argue that a single cyberlimb overrules the limits for tests that involve more than the limb, but in the cases where the attributes of the limbs are used (either individually, as an average, or when the weakest limb is part of the equation), those same attributes come into play with regards to limits.
On a final note, Reaver, no test states "full body"; it states that you either use the attributes of the particular limb used, or the average in any other case. Only when "the careful coordination of several limbs" is required do you use the weakest one, and it's up to the GM to decide when this is because no clarification is given from the rules.
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Michael; five limbs? I count four. If you include torso, shouldn't you also include head? I don't see torso and head as having Strength and Attribute ratings, though, since they both count as "shells" according to the rules:
Page 455:
"Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs)."
From an RAI standpoint, neither a cyberskull or a cybertorso, then, are considered limbs, and thus cannot be customized and/or enhanced as I see it. As per page 456 (emphasis mine):
"You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature. Customization lets you add to your limb’s base Strength and/or Agility ratings. Each increase of either attribute increases the limb’s Availability and cost. If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements. You customize your cyberlimb when you buy it; you can’t customize it after purchase, but you can add enhancements."
It seems pretty straight forward that the cybertorso and cyberskull, while included in the cyberlimb category, do not in fact count as limbs. This only leaves 2 arms and 2 legs; if these are the only limbs that count when calculating limits, it logically follows that if when a cyberlimb attribute is used in one of the three situations, the same attribute is used to determine the limit (individually, average, or weakest, depending on the test).
Reaver I wholly agree from a real life perspective, but this is not real life; the game mechanics only go so far. I could just as well argue that a customized cyberlimb actually goes further than just the shoulder socket, and that part of the surgery you pay for is in fact to strengthen the entire frame it is attached to.
Note that I do not argue that a single cyberlimb overrules the limits for tests that involve more than the limb, but in the cases where the attributes of the limbs are used (either individually, as an average, or when the weakest limb is part of the equation), those same attributes come into play with regards to limits.
On a final note, Reaver, no test states "full body"; it states that you either use the attributes of the particular limb used, or the average in any other case. Only when "the careful coordination of several limbs" is required do you use the weakest one, and it's up to the GM to decide when this is because no clarification is given from the rules.
I agree that the "or limbs" part makes the whole cyberlimb issue harder.... and seems to support what you are saying for sure.
On the torso and skull bit, they are shells because you still have your gooey internal organs. (you don't get a cyber brain when you get a cyberskull. or a cyber heart, lungs, liver, intestine, kidney when you get a cybertorso). basically, the cyber torso and Skull replaces the bones and muscles and that's it. So yes, toxins would still or on a fully cybered person. As would a lack of food or air.
And my use of Full body was meant as "the careful co-ordination of several limbs". I couldn't remember the exact wording. And in a way could be even worse for you... there is lots of activities that require the careful co-ordination of 2 limbs..... or 4... most sports, most B/R skills, combat skills.... the list goes on and on)
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Yep, that's kind of where I am, Reaver; as long as you use the attribute of the limb for the test, whether through the individual, as an average, or if it's the weakest (hey, STR9/9 legs and STR9/8 arms, for example), the attributes are separate from yours and so should be used for the calculation of the limb as well. And I personally think that the fact that torsos and skulls are not counted for the purposes of being limbs kind of makes the issue harder as well;
If they don't count as limbs, do you still get the +1 condition monitor box? What about adding enhancements like Armor; if you can't add Strength or Agility to a skull, can you add armor? And how do you deal with accessories? I may be making the issue more convoluted than necessary, but I for one think that the issue of limits is far from as clearcut as "you have one limit and you ignore the enhanced attributes of cyberlimbs for the purposes of using them".
Again, as for what counts as "the careful coordination of several limbs" will be up to the GM, which I dislike. Not that it will be an issue for me, since I plan on having all 9s across the board (and having spent over 400k on limbs in total, I think it's pretty fair to assume that my character can in fact move like he had Agility 9, not 1 or 2....).
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Yep, that's kind of where I am, Reaver; as long as you use the attribute of the limb for the test, whether through the individual, as an average, or if it's the weakest (hey, STR9/9 legs and STR9/8 arms, for example), the attributes are separate from yours and so should be used for the calculation of the limb as well. And I personally think that the fact that torsos and skulls are not counted for the purposes of being limbs kind of makes the issue harder as well;
If they don't count as limbs, do you still get the +1 condition monitor box? What about adding enhancements like Armor; if you can't add Strength or Agility to a skull, can you add armor? And how do you deal with accessories? I may be making the issue more convoluted than necessary, but I for one think that the issue of limits is far from as clearcut as "you have one limit and you ignore the enhanced attributes of cyberlimbs for the purposes of using them".
Again, as for what counts as "the careful coordination of several limbs" will be up to the GM, which I dislike. Not that it will be an issue for me, since I plan on having all 9s across the board (and having spent over 400k on limbs in total, I think it's pretty fair to assume that my character can in fact move like he had Agility 9, not 1 or 2....).
yea, it is convoluted for sure...
I try to take a common sense approach to things... so I REALLY don't see what 9s in a cyber skull would do for you.... Unless you plan on being a headbutt attacker. I mean, your head is just... there... you move it about so you can see, but rarely do you use it to really apply force, or mechanical advantage to something... although a cyberskull with a STR of 9 might come into play in the aforementioned headbutt, but it may also apply to bite attacks as well?
The Torso, however I can see coming into play way more often... but this could be cause I do a manual job most every day and am aware of how often I have to take care that my back is protected from injury during the everyday work that I do. (and thus could be over thinking it as well)
The Big issue that stops us from being able to examine this is the fact we don't really know how the limbs attach to the body, and how extensive the re-enforcement of those connection are. (is an arm connected RIGHT at the shoulder, so the arm is fake, but the shoulder is real? it the shoulder and rotator cup, and supporting structure enforced? or is it natural? Does the limb even weigh more then a natural one, given the use of composites and plastics?)
If the limb's connection point is heavily enforced, then would a 4 limb conversion REQUIRE a torso as well simply cause you removed so much of the natural both in the enforcement of the limb? IF the connection point is NOT heavily enforced, do you have a chance of tearing off the limb by trying to move something extremely heavy??
So many questions...
too few beer
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So many questions...
too few beer
Hear, hear :D
I also try taking a common sense approach to things, and in the case of cyberlimbs I think of Deus Ex: Human Revolution, which is where I drew inspiration for my first SR5 character, namely recreating an Adam Jensen type cyberwarrior.
Replacing an arm at the shoulder joint seems like a highly illogical thing from an efficiency point of view, but if you consider the humanitarian angle it'd likely be much less intrusive. So, the question I'd ask myself is; what is the purpose of the limb?
For Joe Wageslave who works at a desk, you'd likely want what's sure to be very intrusive surgery to have as minimal of an impact as possible.
For Jane, Warrior Extraordinaire, however, or Jack Dockworker, the focus is on performance, which could mean full synthetic muscle and tendon grafts and anchors, as well as reinforced joints to allow for full articulation.
To me, the concept of a cyberarm fitting one's frame just means that it's possible to attach even the strongest arm to a normal human body. Even a Body attribute of 1 doesn't mean that your character suffers from osteoporosis or any similar disease targeting the bones, it just means that the character is not physically fit (or, as described in the book, perhaps a couch potato). In other words, bones are considered to have a certain strength, and a cyberlimb fitting would likely require replacement of some (or most, or even all) of the muscles and tendons which bind the limb to the body. As such, it's not unfathomable to me that a Body 1 character could indeed lift to his full potential if all four limbs were replaced.
Similarly, I don't see gettiing a cybertorso as doing anything at all for your spine; the torso is just a shell, remember. So, while it may seem odd that a character with four limbs of high strength and agility could perform feats his core (articulation of the spine, strength of abdominal muscles, etc, etc) normally wouldn't, I don't see an issue with the arms and legs being able to compensate for some or even most activities the book covers.
Take climbing, for instance; anyone who's free climbed a rock wall knows that it's as much about finger strength and careful positioning of hands and legs as it is about core strength. Climbing hand over hand horizontally is almost all upper arm strength, as is doing pull-ups on a bar. A character with strong cyberarms could likely do as many pushups as the limb would allow for (imagine how at STR 9 you're stronger than any living, unaugmented human has ever been).
This concept shot of Adam Jensen from Deus Ex: Human Revolution pretty much sums up my view of what cyberarms might have looked like in SR5, and in the setting of Deus Ex he can, when upgraded) punch through walls, fire assault rifles without recoil, and drop 20 meters straight down due to a dampening field (think hydraulic jacks).
I see no reason why the rules as written shouldn't allow for limits to be calculated using the attribute of the limb in question, particularly given the distinction between individual, average, and minimum attributes being used. To me, it's dead simple; use whatever attributes is used for the test, and my interpretation of the RAW is certainly just that.
If a GM has an issue with what he perceives as overpowered cybernetics, he is free to put the kibosh on a character with Natural STR 1 and cyberarms with STR9, even though all indications from the freelancers (and I believe Bull) is to the contrary.
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So many questions...
too few beer
Hear, hear :D
I also try taking a common sense approach to things, and in the case of cyberlimbs I think of Deus Ex: Human Revolution, which is where I drew inspiration for my first SR5 character, namely recreating an Adam Jensen type cyberwarrior.
Replacing an arm at the shoulder joint seems like a highly illogical thing from an efficiency point of view, but if you consider the humanitarian angle it'd likely be much less intrusive. So, the question I'd ask myself is; what is the purpose of the limb?
For Joe Wageslave who works at a desk, you'd likely want what's sure to be very intrusive surgery to have as minimal of an impact as possible.
For Jane, Warrior Extraordinaire, however, or Jack Dockworker, the focus is on performance, which could mean full synthetic muscle and tendon grafts and anchors, as well as reinforced joints to allow for full articulation.
To me, the concept of a cyberarm fitting one's frame just means that it's possible to attach even the strongest arm to a normal human body. Even a Body attribute of 1 doesn't mean that your character suffers from osteoporosis or any similar disease targeting the bones, it just means that the character is not physically fit (or, as described in the book, perhaps a couch potato). In other words, bones are considered to have a certain strength, and a cyberlimb fitting would likely require replacement of some (or most, or even all) of the muscles and tendons which bind the limb to the body. As such, it's not unfathomable to me that a Body 1 character could indeed lift to his full potential if all four limbs were replaced.
Similarly, I don't see gettiing a cybertorso as doing anything at all for your spine; the torso is just a shell, remember. So, while it may seem odd that a character with four limbs of high strength and agility could perform feats his core (articulation of the spine, strength of abdominal muscles, etc, etc) normally wouldn't, I don't see an issue with the arms and legs being able to compensate for some or even most activities the book covers.
Take climbing, for instance; anyone who's free climbed a rock wall knows that it's as much about finger strength and careful positioning of hands and legs as it is about core strength. Climbing hand over hand horizontally is almost all upper arm strength, as is doing pull-ups on a bar. A character with strong cyberarms could likely do as many pushups as the limb would allow for (imagine how at STR 9 you're stronger than any living, unaugmented human has ever been).
This concept shot of Adam Jensen from Deus Ex: Human Revolution pretty much sums up my view of what cyberarms might have looked like in SR5, and in the setting of Deus Ex he can, when upgraded) punch through walls, fire assault rifles without recoil, and drop 20 meters straight down due to a dampening field (think hydraulic jacks).
I see no reason why the rules as written shouldn't allow for limits to be calculated using the attribute of the limb in question, particularly given the distinction between individual, average, and minimum attributes being used. To me, it's dead simple; use whatever attributes is used for the test, and my interpretation of the RAW is certainly just that.
If a GM has an issue with what he perceives as overpowered cybernetics, he is free to put the kibosh on a character with Natural STR 1 and cyberarms with STR9, even though all indications from the freelancers (and I believe Bull) is to the contrary.
<looks down at belly>
<mumbles> "ain't a couch potato.... maybe a beer potato?"
At first I was going to post some thing against what you said here...... but I stopped and REALLY thought about it (which is hard ATM.... good MRE <BAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAH!!!!!!>, a couple of shots and a few beer later, I can what you are saying....
but I will admit I have a Knee-jerk reaction when I see something like this, cause usually you are dealing with some sort of munchkin build, or a player that doesn't understand the rules and roles of attributes. But, really, there IS nothing that I can see that stops you from doing what you are suggesting... and it is my own knee-jerk reaction that has to be questioned.
but I will disagree on one point :P (just so this isn't a glowy little love post :D)
I think the Shell descriptor for a cyber torso, means just that, a replacement or reinforcement of the spine, hips, ribs, shoulders and neck. The are described as shells cause, like I said earlier, you still have your gooey bits in there too (heart, lungs, kidney, etc). otherwise, what is it replacing? Is it just advanced platemail armor bolted to the bones??? No, it's more then just armor (as cyber doesn't have an armor rating.. but does increase your body due to being made of materials stronger then flesh and bone..... and yes, I would give a cyber torso/skull the +1 condition monitor for that exact reason)
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where does it say it is not allowed to augment a cyberskull with strength, agility or armor?
I personally don't see the point in adding strength or agility in a cyberskull
- but armor make perfect sense.
(strength could be used for head-but unarmed attack and agility could possible be used for escape artist).
where does it say it is not allowed to augment a torso with strength, agility or armor?
I personally don't see the point in adding agility in a torso
- but armor and connecting your hulk arms with a torso that can handle the strength for lifting etc. make perfect sense.
(agility could possible be used for some advanced gymnastic exercises)
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Reaver Hehehe, that was freakin' hilarious, thanks for a good laugh :)
Also, thanks for being magnanimous enough to consider my argument instead of just calling "MUNCHKIN! OMG !!111!!!!one".
Totally fine to disagree on shells; I think the cybertorso and skull simply add something like a synthetic torso, and doesn't mess around with your internals. To be honest, I don't mind disagreeing on this one, because it's so open to interpretation (ok, so they're not cyberlimbs, but they have capacity, how does that work? What can you do with them, since they are listed under cyberlimbs on page 457, etc etc). The reasons I don't believe torso and skull should be counted for the purposes of "careful coordination of limbs" is because 1. Skulls and torsos are specifically excluded from being limbs in the text on page 455, and 2. If they were intended to have stats like limbs, they would have had higher capacity. As it stands, a Troll can never get Body 13 (it's maximum augmented value using limbs) because a skull only has 2 capacity; if you had 2 arms, 2 legs, a torso, and a skull, you would be limited in the enhancements and customizations you could use, which does not seem fair at all nor does it seem to be intended by the rules.
Personally, I read the "are not limbs" to mean that while a skull and torso can take enhancements (armor, agility, strength) and accessories, they are never going to be counted as "a particular limb used for a test" so it is largely irrelevant to add customized strength and agility to these items. Inferring that you NEED a cybertorso and/or to support higher strength and agility arm and/or leg than your natural attribute not only goes against the text (such a requirement is mentioned nowhere) but it directly contradicts the readings we've have on the subject so far (cyberlimbs were specifically designed with exemption from the augmented limit).
Xenon, I could just as easily turn that argument around just like people have been doing with limits.
Where does it say that it IS allowed to augment a cyberskull/torso with strength, agility, or armor? For all intents and purposes, skulls and torsos are shells, not limbs.
I don't agree with this argument (see above), because since the skull and torso "are in fact shells, not full replacements (or actual limbs)", they would never matter "when a particular limb is used for a test".
[EDIT]
I guess my argument boils down to this, from page 47:
"There are two different types of limits: inherent limits and limits from gear. Your character has three inherent limits—Physical, Mental, and Social—that are derived from their attributes (p. 51)."
Since cyberlimbs have attributes of their own, count as augmentations, and can be applied inidividually, as an average, or as the weakest limb, I see no reason why a cyberlimb/several cyberlimbs should not count for the same as every other piece of gear (drugs, cyberware/bioware, or spells), especially considering their cost (significant essence, and nuyen).
[EDIT2]
There's also this from page 168 regarding Accuracy:
"Unarmed attacks use the Inherent Limit [Physical] as determined by the Attributes of the character and do not have an Accuracy rating."
Again, since you would use the attributes of the limb to attack, it seems logical to also use those same attributes to calculate limits.
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It would be a lot easier if all limbs were "custom" and had to equal your bodys attributes at purchase.
Just start them at 1/1 and make you have to pay to increase from there.
Enhancements can exist solely to bring your arm up to spec after the fact, ie if you increase your overall STR or AGI with karma. You only use the limbs stats if its lower than your bodys.
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Emil_Barr And how exactly would that be balanced, or even useful? OK, so my character has 5 STR; under your system, a cyberarm with 6 STR cannot benefit from the augmented strength? I think you'll have to explain this one in more detail, because I certainly don't get the point.
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Emil_Barr And how exactly would that be balanced, or even useful? OK, so my character has 5 STR; under your system, a cyberarm with 6 STR cannot benefit from the augmented strength? I think you'll have to explain this one in more detail, because I certainly don't get the point.
Im basically saying that a limb (under my proposal) cant surpass your actual attributes, but could be under it. Enhancements would be used to bring your arm up after its already been installed.
Id just get rid of enhancement ratings for everything except armor. Might even get rid of their capacity, again except armor.
So you couldnt have superhuman limbs without already being superhuman (from say, muscle augmentation)
So a limbs allure wouldnt be its atributes, but its capacity.
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Right now the attributes are balanced by quite a few details. If this part of limbs is removed, they lose a lot of value since you're paying a lot of nuyen and Essence just for installed goodies, for which you can get cheaper alternatives. Honestly, I think at that point you're better off just leaving them out.
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Yes, Cyberskull and torso are not solid limbs, they are shells.
But they are included in the category Cyberlimbs even though they are not actual limbs.
They are listed in the Cyberlimb table even though they are not actual limbs.
That mean that despite that they are not actual limbs they still use cyberlimb rules.
Which mean they still;
- Have their own Strength and Agility ratings.
- Give you 1 extra damage box on your physical condition monitor.
- Have capacity, letting you add cyberweapons and other cybersystems that have a Capacity cost [in brackets]. (*)
- Can perform at superhuman levels with the right enhancements.
- Can be dangerous even if they don't have cyberweapons installed - their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P.
Everywhere where they use the word cyberlimb they are talking about an obvious or synthetic full arm, full leg, hand, foot, lower arm, lower leg, torso or skull.
(*) It would actually make a lot of sense if you could only put headware augmentations with capacity cost in a cyberskull and bodyware augmentations with a capacity cost in a cybertorso; but the book actually let you add any headware and bodyware augmentation that have a capacity cost in any cyberlimb - including but not limited to arms and legs.
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Xenon I disagree with that statement on the grounds that the text states that they are shells, not limbs; the way I read the following paragraphs they would never be used for a calculating a test, and so have no relevance for the topic at (heh) hand. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because it can obviously be read two different ways.
To my mind, they are NOT talking about skulls and torso when they mention the word cyberlimb, or they wouldn't have included the paragraph stating that they are in fact shells, not limbs.
And really? How would you attack with a cybertorso? Bodyslam? Come on, that makes no sense, particularly since that is not covered anywhere in the rules, written or intended.
I'll ask for clarification.
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A variation on what Emil_Barr is suggesting is how I think that cyber limbs should work.
Say a character's natural attributes are as follows:
Body: 5
Agility: 5
Strength 3
When buying the cyber limb, it has the same starting point that limbs do now (the 3 in all three limb attributes). Now you could keep that 3 value and be less capable with that arm than you are with your real arm, or you can spend the money to use the customization to match your own natural attributes.
Now, in addition to this, I do think that if someone has a natural attribute rating of less than 3, then they should either only be able to customize the limb down to that point or leave it at the base (perhaps incorporating a penalty to all tests for a skill involving physical action equal to the difference in their natural attribute and the limb attribute).
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All4BigGuns That's nice, but it is an opinion that quite radically differs from the current rules implementation and the readings we have so far; cyberlimbs, according to Aaron, was specifically exempted from the +4 augmentation limit, link (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12289.msg228004#msg228004).
In the current rules, a cyberlimb does not have a Body attribute rating, and has it's own Strength and Agility attribute ratings, that can be customized and enhanced.
I honestly have no idea why some of you are so hellbent on making sure that cyberlimbs "are not OP", or indeed whatever your stances are (please, do explain it if you wouldn't mind, I really don't get it). Final character approval is up to the GM, so you are entirely free to houserule that an Agility and Strength 1 character cannot take cyberarms with higher stats (or more than +3 from enhancements, at least), but that is not supported by readings of the current rules.
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Personally I'd of made limbs base 3s+racial mods, cheap to customize up to current levels, standard aug of 4 for each attribute would be 0 essence, low capacity, medium cost. Up to an additional +3 in augs that cost essence, lots of money. Defray essence cost if for each level of bone enhancement the character has.(stolen from CP2020), Limits I am not sure about.
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All4BigGuns That's nice, but it is an opinion that quite radically differs from the current rules implementation and the readings we have so far; cyberlimbs, according to Aaron, was specifically exempted from the +4 augmentation limit, link (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12289.msg228004#msg228004).
In the current rules, a cyberlimb does not have a Body attribute rating, and has it's own Strength and Agility attribute ratings, that can be customized and enhanced.
I honestly have no idea why some of you are so hellbent on making sure that cyberlimbs "are not OP", or indeed whatever your stances are (please, do explain it if you wouldn't mind, I really don't get it). Final character approval is up to the GM, so you are entirely free to houserule that an Agility and Strength 1 character cannot take cyberarms with higher stats (or more than +3 from enhancements, at least), but that is not supported by readings of the current rules.
Even having just the two attributes, the idea still applies (and wouldn't be as expensive as having all three).
The point is that cyber limbs as they exist currently are just one big loophole just waiting to be exploited.
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All4BigGuns That the rules CAN be exploited doesn't mean they always will. Again, it's up to GMs to approve characters, and to allow or disallow certain things. And if a player can do it, so can the NPCs.
Personally, I think the cyberlimbs rules are fine; a single standard level STR9 and AGI9 arm costs 84,000 nuyen, has an essence cost of 1, and will only be used for very specific actions (leading a punch, firing a single-handed weapon, etc). Replacing both arms would cost 168,000 nuyen, 2 essence, and again would only be useful in certain instances. Replacing all four limbs with the previous would cost 336,000 nuyen, 4 essence, but would likely be useful in almost every case the attributes are used.
Comparatively, Standard grade Muscle Augmentation and Muscle Toner R3 costs 189,000 nuyen (roughly 75% less than the cyberlimb equivalent), has a cost of 1.2 essence, and augments a characters STR and AGI in absolutely every instance the attributes are used.
Standard grade Muscle Replacement R3 costs 75,000 nuyen (roughly 450% less than the cyberlimbs), has a cost of 3 essence, and like the above bioware applies in every situation.
And you all are worried that the cyberlimbs are overpowered how, exactly? Please, enlighten me...
EDIT:
And if you say "Oh, but you can add armor, and weapons, and all kinds of stuff to the limbs, OMGLOL!!111!!one OP!", kindly go ahead and re-read the costs for those items, both in terms of nuyen and essence. Cyberlimbs will have a consistently (much) higher nuyen cost, but can save on essence a fair bit if you're going all out with full capacity use.
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Thank you for proving my point exactly. As it currently stands, someone can make a Decker with a higher Agility and Strength than the Street Sam can manage at character creation for the purposes of firing a pistol at less than half the cost.
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And just because it's possible to exploit the rules, every single player will? Come on, that's rubbish and you know it full well. Powergamers will powergame, RPers will RP, and most will blend the two.
The fact that some deckers are willing to drop STR and AGI to 1 should be heavily penalized in EVERY other situation where STR or AGI is needed; having one limb for the purpose of firing a pistol does not alleviate the massive disadvantages that character will have in every other possible way. Not to mention the street sam is free to do exactly the same, so your point about a decker being able to outperform the sam at half the cost is ALSO rubbish.
And just for the record, my street sam has spent over 300k on full synthetic arm and leg replacements; should that character be penalized for following the rules, because someone MIGHT game the system? That, is bullshit.
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It wouldn't affect the Street Sam at all. He needs his Limit to be high since physical endeavors are his bread and butter, so he needs the natural physical attributes anyway. All that would happen is that those others wouldn't be able to exploit the loophole any more.
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hmm.....
Given how fluid combat is..... you are not just standing straight up... but moving to dodge incoming fire, peaking around cover, returning fire, etc....
I would probably not allow a character with a single cyberarm to roll only that arm's agility to fire a pistol..... unless the character was going to fore-go his defensive tests as combat is only of the "multiple limb" type actions...
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hmm.....
Given how fluid combat is..... you are not just standing straight up... but moving to dodge incoming fire, peaking around cover, returning fire, etc....
I would probably not allow a character with a single cyberarm to roll only that arm's agility to fire a pistol..... unless the character was going to fore-go his defensive tests as combat is only of the "multiple limb" type actions...
Using the average for all tests is one potential fix, but since that isn't the rule in the book either, even that could cause problems. It needs to be fixed by the book in some way.
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hmm.....
Given how fluid combat is..... you are not just standing straight up... but moving to dodge incoming fire, peaking around cover, returning fire, etc....
I would probably not allow a character with a single cyberarm to roll only that arm's agility to fire a pistol..... unless the character was going to fore-go his defensive tests as combat is only of the "multiple limb" type actions...
Using the average for all tests is one potential fix, but since that isn't the rule in the book either, even that could cause problems. It needs to be fixed by the book in some way.
[From page 455: Cyberlimbs SR5}
Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings.
When a particular limb is used for a test (such as
leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute
for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the
average value of all limbs involved in the task. If a task
requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the
value of the weakest limb. The attributes of partial limbs
(including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but
their attributes only apply for tests directly involving
those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something
with an enhanced cyberhand). Cyberlimbs cannot
hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take up Essence
rather than Capacity. Essence cost, Capacity, and
other stats can be found on the Cyberlimb table.
Hmmm.. the Bold line suggests that They could in fact, "Shoot" with a single arm if you consider shooting a one armed affair....
but the Bold, underlined, italicized line seems to say they would be hooped on the defense test... especially if they where foolish with their attributes....
I guess it all depends on how you see combat, as static (I stand here and shoot. and then move if attacked, and only if attacked) or as fluid (people moving, dodging, weaving, flinching)
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I guess it all depends on how you see combat, as static (I stand here and shoot. and then move if attacked, and only if attacked) or as fluid (people moving, dodging, weaving, flinching)
Melee combat would indeed involve bobbing and weaving and such. Shooting though, if one desires any real accuracy, they do need to remain relatively still.
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I guess it all depends on how you see combat, as static (I stand here and shoot. and then move if attacked, and only if attacked) or as fluid (people moving, dodging, weaving, flinching)
Melee combat would indeed involve bobbing and weaving and such. Shooting though, if one desires any real accuracy, they do need to remain relatively still.
which is why in CQB, you have hundreds of rounds fired, and only a few actual hits...
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Xenon I disagree with that statement on the grounds that the text states that they are shells, not limbs
They are shells rather than limbs BUT STILL USE THE CYBERLIMB RULES.
Seriously, what do you think this statement means:
p.455 SR5
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category
If skull and torso did not count as cyberlimbs;
- Then they would not be LISTED IN THE CYBERLIMB RULES.
- Then they would not be LISTED IN THE CYBERLIMB TABLE.
Read it again
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category
It is beyond OBVIOUS and NOT AMBIGUOUS that skull and torso COUNT as CYBERLIMBS.
There are rules that state you don't get 1 extra damage box on your physical condition monitor for some cyberlimbs (but they only list feet and hands - and half bonus for half limbs. They don't mention full arms, legs, skull and torso so they all get full bonus). There is no rule stating that some cyberlimbs does not get capacity to host cyberweapons and other cybrersystems that have a Capacity cost in brackets (cyberweapons can only be installed in cyberlimbs and p.456 explicit state that you can install cyberweapons in toroso). There are no rule stating that some cyberlimbs listed in the table can not be fitted with cyberlimb enhancement to perform at superhuman levels. There is no rule stating some cyberlimbs does not have an unarmed Damage Value that is (STR)P.
You are free to house rule that they are not cyberlimbs. It is your table after all, but according to RAW; skull and torso count as cyberlimbs. Cyberlimbs that -just like all other cyberlimbs- have their own Strength and Agility ratings, give you 1 extra damage box on your physical condition monitor, have capacity, letting you add cyberweapons and other cybersystems that have a Capacity cost [in brackets], can perform at superhuman levels with the right enhancements, can be dangerous even if they don't have cyberweapons installed - their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P.
Having said that; i don't see much use of adding strength or agility ratings to your skull and i don't see much use of adding agility to your torso. Armor on the other hand... very useful. (and strength for torso will help you lift stuff without your back collapsing or your arms get ripped out of their sockets if you got enhanced cyberlimb legs and arms).
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Chill out, Xenon. I disagree with your interpretation, and I've asked the question in the clarification thread.
There are no rules for having your back collapse or having your arms rip out of their sockets if you don't get a cyber torso. That was SR4.
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There are no rules for ...
Yes there is (p.455-456 SR5).
If you have strength 2 torso but strength 9 arms and legs
- then your strength 2 torso will limit how much you can lift.
The only question here would be how much your strength 2 torso will limit you
1) ...in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task: (9+9+9+9+2) / 5 = 8
2) If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb: 2
I'd say (YMMV) that as far as careful coordination of several limbs goes in regards of a strength related test lifting something really really heavy using both arms, both legs and your torso is as much text book example as it can get
- and you would be limited to a strength of 2 when taking this lifting test.
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Hmmm.. the Bold line suggests that They could in fact, "Shoot" with a single arm if you consider shooting a one armed affair....
but the Bold, underlined, italicized line seems to say they would be hooped on the defense test... especially if they where foolish with their attributes....
Except that there is no defense test in SR5 that uses any attribute that can be enhanced by a Cyberarm.
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Xenon And yet again, we disagree, on the simple grounds of me not seeing torso as a limiting factor, since not once in the book is it mentioned as being one. Which is why I've asked in the clarification thread.
And it's no surprise that we disagree on what careful coordination, means. Come on, anyone who's ever lifted anything from the ground up knows it's not exactly a finesse thing. Grip and lift; not very carefully coordinated, is it.
Again, I just can't fathom why you and a few others have such a hardon for limiting cyberlimbs. They are the most expensive way to achieve higher strength and agility overall by far, both in terms of Essence and nuyen; why is it that you feel such a need to argue this point, when it very CLEARLY follows the spirit of the "Everything has a price" rule. A character buying four cyberlimbs in chargen offers up at least 3.2 Essence and at most 5 Essence, and at least 45k nuyen and at most 72k just for the limbs themselves. Add in STR and AGI enhancements, and you're looking at an additional 15k nuyen or 30k nuyen (lower and upper limits for used and alpha, respectively) PER rating point for all four limbs.
In total, a character buying STR and AGI 9 arms and legs is spending anywhere from 252k (used) through 336k (standard) to 450k for alphaware limbs. And this is unbalanced how, exactly?
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Tell me what you consider a coordinated action that use strength. Lifting something very heavy is a very good example imo.
If you have very strong arms and legs but no muscles in your torso you will hurt your back if you lift something very heavy. Shrug.
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I used to work as a mover and while I agree that you CAN lift with your back (in fact, I would suggest it to avoid potential long-term injuries), it is perfectly plausible to lift with just arms and legs.
Ever had someone tell you to "Lift with your back" when you were a kid (or an adult, for that matter)? Yeah, that's why...
Will it hurt you long-term; very likely. Does that matter in terms of game mechanics? In my view, absolutely not.
To my mind, using only the weakest limb (and again, I don't agree that torso is a limb for this purpose) should be a very rare case.
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Lifting something is an action that WILL be limited by your muscles in your torso (either as acting as an average value or as a weakest limb - take your pick).
But if you think average value should be used here then you also say that you can have Strength 1 arms and strength 9 legs and torso - and still lift things like you have an average strength of 5-6?? I feel this test is a test that use the weakest limb for sure. But maybe you can give me a better example? (didn't think so)
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Come on, anyone who's ever lifted anything from the ground up knows it's not exactly a finesse thing. Grip and lift; not very carefully coordinated, is it.
I feel you are underselling the differing number of muscles, and their locations in the body, that are actually engaged by lifting something off the ground - especially if you are doing something more than just picking it straight up and dropping straight back down.
As an example, an anecdote from my former occupation: I would move 80 lb bags of concrete mix from a palette to a trailer or truck over and over for hours each day.
You lift with your legs, but your back muscles stabilize you, and your shoulders and arms are used to move the bag into place... all while your grip strength is required to keep hold of the bag.
That is coordination between the limbs, and should absolutely use the weakest of those involved to determine ability - you can't keep a hold on the bag if your grip is weak, can't maneuver the bag if your arms are weak, can't lift the bag if your legs are weak, and are going to seriously hurt yourself if your back muscles are too weak to keep you stable.
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I don't think we need to discuss this any more, because we clearly have different opinions about what cyberlimbs entail. As I see it, the core (heh) difference in our views is that I see a cybertorso and a skull as a shell rather than a limb, and that these won't be involved, and this next bit is the important part, from a game mechanics standpoint. You believe that they will.
We've clearly exhausted our arugments, as we're now just going back and forth over real world examples, which have little to no impact on the rules. You say torsos and skulls are limbs and should be included when considering average or weakest limb, I don't. There, that pretty much sums it up. Until we get official clarification, I'll refrain from discussing this with you any more.
Noble Drake; I am indeed oversimplifying the process, because I feel that the game mechanics do not account for real world examples.
While I agree that in your example, 80lbs bags of powder is going to be heavily wearing on your back if you carry it stretched out in front of you or over your shoulder, I also feel like futuristic cybernetic replacements could have the potential to alleviate this action by carrying the bag neatly tucked underneath the arm, close to the body. Since we don't know how these futuristic limbs are connected to the frame of the person using them, this whole argument becomes kind of moot.
Again, from a game mechanics point of view I don't see the torso as being that involved; if that is indeed the case from a design standpoint, cyberlimbs just became a horribly inefficient way of upping your strength, which I think is a shame because cyberlimbs, along with cyber eyes, are such a staple of the setting to me.
To put the previous example in context, if the torso is indeed counted as a limb for the purposes of tests (whatever the nature), the costs raise significantly.
In total, a STR and AGI 3 suite of two arms, two legs, and a torso would cost at least 80k nuyen and 5.5 essence. The same as alpha would be 96k nuyen and 4.4 essence.
Due to the added essence cost, it would no longer be possible to do this with Used grade 'ware.
Each attribute rating point (STR and AGI individually) above 3 would cost 25k nuyen (5k*5) for standard and 30k (6k*5) for alpha, up to (presumably) racial maximum.
In total, a STR and AGI 6 suite of two arms, two legs, and a torso would total at least 230k nuyen and 5.5 essence. The same as alpha would be 276k nuyen and 4.4 essence.
Each enhancement point above racial max would cost 32.5k (6.5k*5) nuyen for standard and 39k (6.5k*5*1.2) for alpha, up to racial max plus three.
In total, a STR and AGI 9 suite of two arms, two legs, and a torso would total 405k nuyen, and 5.5 essence. The same as alpha would be 486k nuyen, and 4.4 essence.
Tell me, if this is how the rules are intended to work, when would anyone ever use these items? The essence and nuyen cost is so prohibitively high that it completely negates the usefulness of these mods, as enhancing strength through muscle replacement or muscle augmentation/toner is cheaper in all respects except karma spent on attributes. It's borderline with four limbs, but adding a requirement for the torso pushes it over the edge in terms of cost effectiveness.
[EDIT]
The above also seems to be directly contradicting the intention of the writers;
"On the other hand, [cyberlimbs] are cheap and easy to service and upgrade, so in the end they became even more popular for the less fortunate."
Cyberlimbs always were the poor man's choice, but the way it's being interpreted from a game mechanics standpoint chummers might as well get full muscle replacements to up their strength AND agility, because it ends up being cheaper at only 25k per attribute point.
Jack Dockworker can get full cybernetic replacements to become stronger (by one attribute point) for 105k (80k for limbs, 25k for STR+1 customization), or he could just get muscle replacements R1 for 25k. Wait, what?
Personal opinion (and I'm obviously biased, if that wasn't abundantly clear by now); cyberlimbs got royally screwed in the new rules, and doesn't follow the spirit (or intention) of the setting at all.
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if that is indeed the case from a design standpoint, cyberlimbs just became a horribly inefficient way of upping your strength...
Cyberlimbs have never been an efficient way of upping your strength in any edition of Shadowrun - that's what muscle replacement (and then later muscle augmentation) has always been for.
which I think is a shame because cyberlimbs, along with cyber eyes, are such a staple of the setting to me.
I agree for sure that cyberlimbs are a staple of the setting (heck, the whole genre if you ask me)... but they are usually only a single limb or a pair of limbs that, while they have terrifying capabilities when used exclusively (like effortlessly crushing bone in a cyberarm's grip), don't significantly change the user's overall capabilities.
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...difference in our views is that I see a cybertorso and a skull as a shell rather than a limb, and that these won't be involved, and this next bit is the important part, from a game mechanics standpoint. You believe that they will.
You, me and the book all agree that torso and skull are shells rather than limbs.
Me and the book -but not you- agree that torso and skull are Cyberlimbs.
There is a difference between a shell and a limb
There is a difference between a limb and a Cyberlimb.
Skull and Torso are not limbs.
Skull and Torso are Cyberlimbs.
I believe that Torso and Skull are Cyberlimbs because the book say so.
Torso and Skull are included in both the Cyberlimb category and the Cyberlimb table.
Cyberlimbs (SR5 p.455)
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category
Cyberlimbs table (SR5 p.457)
Obvious limbs
...
Torso
Skull
Synthetic limbs
...
Torso
Skull
You never told us WHY you think they included Torso and Skull in the Cyberlimbs category if they did NOT intend that they use Cyberlimbs rules.
...cyberlimbs just became a horribly inefficient way of upping your strength, which I think is a shame because cyberlimbs, along with cyber eyes, are such a staple of the setting to me.
Just because you think cyberlimbs are horrible inefficient does not change the fact skull and torso are Cyberlimbs (not limbs, Cyberlimbs)
Generally speaking you don't really use the strength or agility values of your skull and torso. So generally speaking you would probably not enhance them with strength and agility values (but armor is very viable). Only exceptions I can think of would be when you head butt someone (strength of your head), lifting something (strength of your torso) or some highly acrobatic gymnastics (agility of your torso). Maybe using escape artist to bend and twist your body to fit in a very small space (agility of both head and torso).
Personally I think a cyberarm on a physically weak character that does not mind augmentations (for example a decker) is a very efficient way of augmenting (maybe even too strong). With a minimal investment in agility you he can still get a single super arm that let him fire a heavy pistol with 9 agility and the limit from accuracy of the weapon rather than his [rather low] physical limit.
You can also add two obvious feet enhanced with a total of +6 armor for less than 0.7 essence. Getting the same amount of armor from adept powers would require an investment of 3(!) power points.
Most street samurai would want decent base strength even if he got cyberlimbs since he would typically depend on his physical limit for a lot of his tests. Cyberlimbs in this case will still give him extra condition monitor boxes and the option to enhance them with armor. Would even go as far as saying that Cyberlimbs are the backbone when building a street samurai tank archetype.
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Headbutts are not attacks that you can technically use, as it is not covered under the rules. Lifting is not described as using the torso (but is very likely up to GM discretion, as it would be either an average of arms, legs, and torso, weakest of previous, or average/weakest of just arms and legs). Gymnastics again would be the same as lifting (i.e. GM discretion).
I agree that a cyberarm for a decker is a great investment, perhaps a little too good. I further think that full cybernetic replacements are too expensive both in terms of nuyen and essence to be cost efficient, which is a shame.
All right, reviewing costs as I apparently forgot to carry the five...
For a human character:
Cost effectiveness of enhancing attributes from 1 to 3 with cyberlimbs (legs, arms, and torso) vs cyberware vs bioware (all standard grade):
Cyberlimbs start at attribute rating 3, whereas cyberware and bioware has to be purchased at R2.
80k and 5.5 essence vs 50k and 2 essence vs 126k and 0.8 essence
Enhancing from 1 to 6 is not possible with cyberware of bioware; advantage cyberlimbs
230k and 5.5 essence vs NA vs NA
Enhancing from 1 to 9 is not possible with cyberware of bioware; advantage cyberlimbs
815k and 5.5 essence vs NA vs NA
Now, this is where the equations gets interesting.
Cost effectiveness of enhancing attributes from 3 to 6 with cyberlimbs (legs, arms, and torso) vs cyberware vs bioware (all standard grade):
Cyberlimbs remain the same as previous R6 (you still have to buy the arms, and now add customizations), but cyberware and bioware only has to go one rating up to +3
230k and 5.5 essence vs 75k and 3 essence vs 189k and 1.2 essence
Cost effectiveness of enhancing attributes from 6 to 9 with cyberlimbs (legs, arms, and torso) vs cyberware vs bioware (all standard grade):
Cyberlimbs remain the same as previous R9 (you still have to buy the arms and the customizations, and now add enhancements), and cyberware and bioware is the same as previous as you still only need +3
815k and 5.5 essence vs 75k and 3 essence vs 189k and 1.2 essence
Once again, cyberlimbs are not cost effective at higher levels. Despite a (substantially) higher cost in terms of nuyen and essence, some of you are purporting that the rules as written means cyberlimbs:
A) Do not affect limits
B) Do not affect derived attributes such as lifting capacity, movement speed, etc except if a full suite of all five "limbs" is purchased
C) Do not affect tests where the entire body can be expected to be involved (Gymnastics, Running, Swimming, others?) except if a suite of all five "limbs" is purchased
Have I understood your point of view correctly?
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Headbutts are not attacks that you can technically use, as it is not covered under the rules.
Yes they are attacks you can use and yes they are covered under the rules.
(and even if they were not then I am sure any GM could could think up some rules on the fly).
Unarmed Combat (SR5 p.132)
Unarmed Combat covers the various self-defense and attack moves that employ the body as a primary weapon.
Cyberlimbs (SR5 p.456)
Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P.
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Wow... your ability to nitpick is second to none. I salute you.
Once again, I point you to the fact that the cyberlimbs category specifically excludes torsos and skulls from being actual limbs, hence you can't use them to attack with. Pray tell, what modifier would you use for attacking with a headbutt, or a body slam? Should you consider yourself at a disadvantage from using an off hand? Come on, dude, you're just arguing for arguments sake at this point. Nowhere in the melee combat rules is it stated that headbutts and bodyslams are acceptable methods of attack.
"Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs)."
Not limbs.
"When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task."
Limb. Not skull, not torso. Limb.
Page 187:
"Apply this penalty to any attack made with the characters non-dominant hand."
Hand. Not foot, or feet, or torso, or skulls. By this logic, one could argue that you cannot make an attack (unarmed or otherwise) with anything but your hands. Unless, of course, you'll argue that since it doesn't specify feet, skulls, or torso, that you attack with your regular unarmed attack skill with no penalty, which I'm fairly certain you will.
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Play nice people or I'm locking this necrothread.
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Play nice people or I'm locking this necrothread.
Might as well go ahead and do so.
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Duly noted, Chrona. I'll note that I decided to post in this thread because Aaron (amongst others) had provided input on my original query.
I have no problem leaving the topic alone as of now, while awaiting clarification.
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martinchaen unfortunately this is (another) problem caused by the Cyberlimb rules rather than a problem with headbutts per se. The only time it actually addresses attacking with a specific part of the body, where leading with a cyberarm is specifically allowed.
Cyberarms break the abstraction of the unarmed combat system down without giving us any guidelines on whether, for instance, a cyberskull head butt is reasonable or not. It's almost entirely up to the GM to figure out what you can or can't do with your Agi 1(9) Cyberskull.
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If a body part can or can not be a cyberlimb have no bearing on what body parts you can or can not use for Unarmed Skill. There are plenty of characters that don't have cyberlimbs that still can use Unarmed Combat skill to attack targets by employing the body as a primary weapon.
Most [other] people would consider their head being part of their body.
Most [other] GMs would allow you to do a headbutt attack with Unarmed Skill + Agility [Physical] that deal (STR)S.
Some GMs would allow you to do a cyberskull headbutt attack with Unarmed Skill + Agility [Physical] that deal (STR)P.
Page 187:
"Apply this penalty to any attack made with the characters non-dominant hand."
Hand. Not foot, or feet, or torso, or skulls. By this logic, one could argue that you cannot make an attack (unarmed or otherwise) with anything but your hands. Unless, of course, you'll argue that since it doesn't specify feet, skulls, or torso, that you attack with your regular unarmed attack skill with no penalty, which I'm fairly certain you will.
The quote is from the Character Using Off-Hand Weapon (SR5, p.187)
And yes, you are not allowed to wield weapons with your skull or your feet. Only your left or your right hand. If you are right handed and wield a weapon with your left hand you will suffer -2 dice pool modifier to your weapon attack. Not sure what have to do with employing the body as a primary weapon with Unarmed Combat.
Your inability to read the rule book is second to none. I salute you [too].
You still have not told us WHY you think they included Torso and Skull in the Cyberlimbs category if they did NOT intend that they use Cyberlimbs rules.
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Hands are not weapons?
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Might as well go ahead and do so.
I am forced to agree
Your inability to read the rule book is second to none. I salute you [too].
And so we lock this thread.
I imagine one will pop up to replace it very quickly.