Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Acme on <01-07-11/0649:46>
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(This is something I did somewhere else, so if for some of you this is a repeat, well.. Meh. But OTOH, I think that Secret History is PERFECT for this kind of rampant psychosis.)
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(One big NOTE: This isn't a wheedling plea to people like Hardy and Adam for explanations or an accusation that they screwed up on x plot point. I appreciate the hard work that everyone who's ever penned the game has put in and understand the difficulties that it takes. If someone who works/worked on Shadowrun WANTS to give a "official" explanation, great. Or they can put their own speculation in. ;D It's all for fun.
SECOND NOTE: If the Unsolved Mysteries have in fact been explained, please provide reference, not just go "This already got solved!" I may own a LOT of the books, but maybe there's one I didn't get to yet. Danke schoen.)
Hey all, long time SR player, semi-first time poster (I believe I used to have an account back way back) but I thought that I'd start my posting here with some interesting ideas. The first being.. *Cues Robert Stack voice* Unsolved Mysteries of the Sixth World.
There have been a few dozen things that just seem to have blipped off the radar here and there, either never to be brought up again or just simply shelved. The obvious answer is change in direction for the game due to new staff shuffling in and out, and frankly 20 years of canon will cause many a headache of loose ends and frayed edges. Just ask any Trekkie. In my opinion, the two biggest causer of UMs: the end of FASA and the scrambling to find new writers and keep the old ones as it advanced to FanPro and the clearing away of most of the pre-Crash storylines in System Failure/advancing to 4th Edition. (Let's not have nitpicking about the stories that DID happen. Yes, Second American Revolution got the shaft. Deal with it. It still has ramifications like Colloton taking presidency, so that's better than nothing.)
Will they get worked out? I don't know. Maybe some of them were left intentionally vague in order for enterprising GMs to work out in their own games, or for future freelancers to gather together for their proposals. But that's what this thread series is about. The chance for we 'Runners to discuss and speculate about those things that are unsolved. If anything, it makes for a good collection for theories and explanations.
SO: To open this series, let us look at a fairly recent Unsolved Mystery of the Sixth World:
Nadja Daviar.
Voice of Ol' Unkle Zahn himself and former Vice President before Haffener got the lead resignation letter in '65. She disappeared right afterwards and now marks 7 years since she ghosted. If you didn't catch the five or six references to her still being gone in Ares' section of the Corp Guide, her missing still has ramifications for a lot of things, such as Gavilan Ventures' stock giving the Aurelius family a way back into Ares and the chance to screw over ol' Damien Knight with Art Vogel's help.
I'd actually credit her disappearance to the sweeping of most of the pre-Crash storylines that went with System Failure/the beginning of 4th Edition. She was used fairly often, but after Haffener got the presidency and the whole dark times with the end of FASA, she dropped off the radar.
So where did she go? Biggest theories:
-The SAR got to her as well. (I don't think this is that good of a thoery. She was a pretty power player and to kill her off-screen without a single mention in 4-5 years of books is a little hard to do. They probably would have kacked her right along with Haffener in the SAR writeup in System Failure if they were killing her off.)
-Went Underground because of Ghostwalker. Pet theory of mine. With all the psychotic speculation of Ghostwalker being Dunklezahn's brother (or similarly connected) maybe he pulled her to his side or she went there in order to get some last vestiges of D that she was holding onto. Being a voice for a dragon HAS to have some sort of lingering stuff, and Ghostwalker had been doing all he could to be kinda like a hardcore Dunkelzahn. (Dunno, this is an odd theory but has merit. Could be shot through, since he's got his own voice and all.)
-Went underground because of Ryan Mercury. This actually was a bit of an interesting theory that I've seen from a thread here on the forum, that since she was GF with Ryan Mercury even after his Drake self emerged, there was the possibility that the elf and Drake DNA was compatible enough to have kids. Maybe the gestation period is that long? Or maybe she just retired with RM so they could raise their children without people trying to vivisect or exploit an offspring of a meta and a drake. (This has possibility, but does this mean that Assets Inc. has been completely folded then, or just like the ever revolving mage, they just found a new leader?)
-Falling out with Draco Foundation. Maybe the DF went in a direction she didn't like and there was some sort of tiff. She's supposed to be their Director, but maybe with her being VP and all they went in directions she couldn't control and she had to go deal with it; perhaps it backfired.
-Went rogue? Well, there's always that possibility. Something went ping in her mind, maybe she was a plant by the SAR the whole time, maybe Dunklezahn's spirit found a way to contact her, maybe she went on a 7 year vacation to where he and Burnout have been keeping the enemy at bay... you get the drift.
And a side-question with her. You knew it had to come, there's always speculation about any elven lead. Is she a member of Those Wacky Immortal Elves™? That could be a possibility right there. Either she is Immortal now because of some gene and we'll see her later anyway, or she already was one, took on the ND personality to get close to Dunkelzahn and eight years later figured she did all she could do and just go back to where she came from?
THE WORLD MAY NEVER KNOW.
Seriously, have fun, speculate away. ;D If this is popular, I'll be doing a few more of these. Or suggest your own!
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-Went Underground because of Ghostwalker. Pet theory of mine. With all the psychotic speculation of Ghostwalker being Dunklezahn's brother (or similarly connected) maybe he pulled her to his side or she went there in order to get some last vestiges of D that she was holding onto. Being a voice for a dragon HAS to have some sort of lingering stuff, and Ghostwalker had been doing all he could to be kinda like a hardcore Dunkelzahn. (Dunno, this is an odd theory but has merit. Could be shot through, since he's got his own voice and all.)
Her going underground because of Ghostwalker is possible, but are you sure it is as his ally? Do not the Draco Foundation and Ghostwalker regularly clash about such issues as drakes? And she has a vested personal interest in the wholes drakes thing. So, she could as well be Ghostwalker's opponent, either privately or as a secret operative for the DF. I mean, yes, hes a Great Dragon, but she got plot amour, surely that must count for something as well? ;)
-Went underground because of Ryan Mercury. This actually was a bit of an interesting theory that I've seen from a thread here on the forum, that since she was GF with Ryan Mercury even after his Drake self emerged, there was the possibility that the elf and Drake DNA was compatible enough to have kids. Maybe the gestation period is that long? Or maybe she just retired with RM so they could raise their children without people trying to vivisect or exploit an offspring of a meta and a drake. (This has possibility, but does this mean that Assets Inc. has been completely folded then, or just like the ever revolving mage, they just found a new leader?)
Err - humans and elves; as well as drakes and elves have always been genetically compatible. And the gestation period is always the mother race's one, unsurprisingly. Which is about 12 months for an Elf, IIRC. Though of course, it could indeed be for the sake of raising a family, its just that all your associated points do not fit, heh.
-Falling out with Draco Foundation. Maybe the DF went in a direction she didn't like and there was some sort of tiff. She's supposed to be their Director, but maybe with her being VP and all they went in directions she couldn't control and she had to go deal with it; perhaps it backfired.
It always seemed to me she was more the DF Director than the UCAS Veep. More like the DFs liason in the UCAS government, really. Still, it's possible, but is the DF really the organisation who would necessitate going undergr... wait. Shadowrun. Okay, maybe it is, heh.
-Went rogue? Well, there's always that possibility. Something went ping in her mind, maybe she was a plant by the SAR the whole time, maybe Dunklezahn's spirit found a way to contact her, maybe she went on a 7 year vacation to where he and Burnout have been keeping the enemy at bay... you get the drift.
Now, that would be disappointing. We got to see her pretty close in the novels, and there was no hint of her being a plant or anything. Of course, her being busy with other, more important but less worldly stuff is possible, but that would not be "going rogue".
And a side-question with her. You knew it had to come, there's always speculation about any elven lead. Is she a member of Those Wacky Immortal Elves™?
Always possible with Great Dragon voices, at least. Of course, not all IE have to be ancient - it's a genetic issue and hence inherited. However, we have not seen any real hint in that direction, or have we? So that would come sorta out of the blue.
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Always possible with Great Dragon voices, at least. Of course, not all IE have to be ancient - it's a genetic issue and hence inherited. However, we have not seen any real hint in that direction, or have we? So that would come sorta out of the blue.
Plus, surely the Big D would have recognised her? Either from prior personal meetings or from assensing her and finding her larger-than-normal Essence ration.
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-Went Underground because of Ghostwalker. Pet theory of mine. With all the psychotic speculation of Ghostwalker being Dunklezahn's brother (or similarly connected) maybe he pulled her to his side or she went there in order to get some last vestiges of D that she was holding onto. Being a voice for a dragon HAS to have some sort of lingering stuff, and Ghostwalker had been doing all he could to be kinda like a hardcore Dunkelzahn. (Dunno, this is an odd theory but has merit. Could be shot through, since he's got his own voice and all.)
Her going underground because of Ghostwalker is possible, but are you sure it is as his ally? Do not the Draco Foundation and Ghostwalker regularly clash about such issues as drakes? And she has a vested personal interest in the wholes drakes thing. So, she could as well be Ghostwalker's opponent, either privately or as a secret operative for the DF. I mean, yes, hes a Great Dragon, but she got plot amour, surely that must count for something as well? ;)
Well, thumbing through here (in the Denver thread of all places) has it that Ghostwalker is Icewing, which really WOULD make him Dunkie's older brother. (That makes me wonder if this possibility with her and GW being allies or going round and round that she's going to crop back up in the revised Denver book...) But you've got a good point that she could be sparring with him over drakes. GW could have tried to claim Ryan as his vassal due to familial heritage and Daviar put her foot down. Though granted, GW hasn't seemed to reclaim any of Dunkelzahn's other stuff. And plot armor isn't everything, ask Art Dankwalther, hehe.
-Went underground because of Ryan Mercury. This actually was a bit of an interesting theory that I've seen from a thread here on the forum, that since she was GF with Ryan Mercury even after his Drake self emerged, there was the possibility that the elf and Drake DNA was compatible enough to have kids. Maybe the gestation period is that long? Or maybe she just retired with RM so they could raise their children without people trying to vivisect or exploit an offspring of a meta and a drake. (This has possibility, but does this mean that Assets Inc. has been completely folded then, or just like the ever revolving mage, they just found a new leader?)
Err - humans and elves; as well as drakes and elves have always been genetically compatible. And the gestation period is always the mother race's one, unsurprisingly. Which is about 12 months for an Elf, IIRC. Though of course, it could indeed be for the sake of raising a family, its just that all your associated points do not fit, heh.
Well these aren't really points as much as wild hairs. But the point of exploiting the offspring is still valid, because there's the chance that the child will end up drake as well.
-Falling out with Draco Foundation. Maybe the DF went in a direction she didn't like and there was some sort of tiff. She's supposed to be their Director, but maybe with her being VP and all they went in directions she couldn't control and she had to go deal with it; perhaps it backfired.
It always seemed to me she was more the DF Director than the UCAS Veep. More like the DFs liason in the UCAS government, really. Still, it's possible, but is the DF really the organisation who would necessitate going undergr... wait. Shadowrun. Okay, maybe it is, heh.
Well hell DF employs runners, and inherited Assets Inc (IIRC Talon split off because he didn't like working for the DF buut it's been a while since I read Crossroads so don't quote me there.) so it's not completely lily white. My other theory is she went off looking for a few inheritors in the Will that hadn't shown up for fifteen years, either for the publicly known stuff or some secret private pieces.
Always possible with Great Dragon voices, at least. Of course, not all IE have to be ancient - it's a genetic issue and hence inherited. However, we have not seen any real hint in that direction, or have we? So that would come sorta out of the blue.
Plus, surely the Big D would have recognised her? Either from prior personal meetings or from assensing her and finding her larger-than-normal Essence ration.
Well now see, that could be a good argument as to why he picked her. That he recognized her as an Immortal Elf and it factored into some plan of his, or he thought it would be a good bridge between dragons and the IEs. He was always big on trying to fix things after all.
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And plot armor isn't everything, ask Art Dankwalther, hehe.
Excuse the derail - but one of my favorite quotes from a SR book was in System Failure regarding Mr. Dankwalther:
> Let me see if I’m getting this straight: they wasted a fragging
Thor shot on ONE guy?
> Arctic White
> No. They wasted a guy with one Thor shot. Besides, you can’t
bribe a smart-guided orbital launch platform.
> Ancient History
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Well, thumbing through here (in the Denver thread of all places) has it that Ghostwalker is Icewing, which really WOULD make him Dunkie's older brother. (That makes me wonder if this possibility with her and GW being allies or going round and round that she's going to crop back up in the revised Denver book...) But you've got a good point that she could be sparring with him over drakes. GW could have tried to claim Ryan as his vassal due to familial heritage and Daviar put her foot down. Though granted, GW hasn't seemed to reclaim any of Dunkelzahn's other stuff. And plot armor isn't everything, ask Art Dankwalther, hehe.
Difference is, Danwalther was a plot device :p But my point was there are normal people who go toe-to-toe with Great Dragons.
And it would not necessarily be about Ryan himself. The DF gives sanctuary to any Drake, and that pisses off just about every Great Dragon, including Ghostwalker. Which makes him a potential now and then enemy of the Foundation, so maybe Daviar, personally motivated about "Drakes rights", is underground in Denver to keep tabs on him.
Or raises children, or is on some mystical quest, or looks for some people named in Dunkelzahns will, or is on the run... everything is possible.
Well now see, that could be a good argument as to why he picked her. That he recognized her as an Immortal Elf and it factored into some plan of his, or he thought it would be a good bridge between dragons and the IEs. He was always big on trying to fix things after all.
Yeah, but wouldnt Dunkelzahn have told her, at least posthumously? He told all kinda stuff after his death, after all!
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I considered Daviar one of the prime pin-up ladies of 6W. I know one of my characters had a photo collection LOL . . .
Seriously though, this is something I would ping as worth a published adventure. "The Hunt-" no, wait, it's a Quest "-for Nadia" . . . suitably retitled.
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/whistles innocently.
Daviar is my favorite Shadowrun character/personality/plot device.
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Actually, I've considered a "Where on Earth is Nadja Daviar" for my next campaign.
Well now see, that could be a good argument as to why he picked her. That he recognized her as an Immortal Elf and it factored into some plan of his, or he thought it would be a good bridge between dragons and the IEs. He was always big on trying to fix things after all.
Yeah, but wouldnt Dunkelzahn have told her, at least posthumously? He told all kinda stuff after his death, after all!
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Maybe she already knew?
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Maybe she already knew?
Possible, but a bit contrived. In that case we should have gotten to know in the Dragon Heart trilogy, seeing how prominently she featured there.
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Maybe she already knew?
Possible, but a bit contrived. In that case we should have gotten to know in the Dragon Heart trilogy, seeing how prominently she featured there.
Which could lead back to the Dunkelzahn knew but didn't tell her for some reason. Maybe he felt she'd turn on him and join the ranks of TWIE- but I can already pop that bubble since Frosty worked with him a lot.
My biggest supposition is that she's doing something dealing with Ghostwalker and is in Denver right now. Maybe she's helping the negotiation of the treaty with secret DF files.
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Well, look at this:
1) According to System Failure, Nadia was in Seattle at the time of the New Revolution's attempted coup, and disappeared then. A possibility is a Rinelle faction grabbed her and Ryan and has been keeping them under wraps. Rather unlikely, but . . .
2) Somewhere (Vice? Seattle 2072? couldn't find page) Chimaera are said to be suspects in her disappearance. Then you have to consider who hired them. Also, they're assassins, not kidnappers.
3) Who ordered Haeffner's death? Colloton? Damien Knight? A false order slipped into the operation plan?
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Well, look at this:
1) According to System Failure, Nadia was in Seattle at the time of the New Revolution's attempted coup, and disappeared then. A possibility is a Rinelle faction grabbed her and Ryan and has been keeping them under wraps. Rather unlikely, but . . .
2) Somewhere (Vice? Seattle 2072? couldn't find page) Chimaera are said to be suspects in her disappearance. Then you have to consider who hired them. Also, they're assassins, not kidnappers.
3) Who ordered Haeffner's death? Colloton? Damien Knight? A false order slipped into the operation plan?
1) That one's been kinda expanded/nullified by 6WA. In the entry of the coup, it notes that she must have gotten back to the capitol the next day or sometime later because she declares martial law and is Acting President, so she got her oath of office via the LBJ route. So if she got grabbed, it would have to be sometime AFTER this whole mess settled down because security would have been ultra tight with a presidential assassination, especially being the SECOND one she's been close to.
2) You are indeed correct that Chimaera is "suspected" to be behind her disappearance (Vice, p 155) but it's shadowtalk, and the guy in the same paragraph has a rumor they're behind O'Malley's death and IIRC that was an in-house job the whole time, at least that was the implication in the Underworld Sourcebook, so that implication becomes suspect. Granted, Chimaera was created sometime after Underwold, so maybe they retconned that one, therefore leaving the implication still possible.
3) If you're implying that the same one behind Haeffner's death is the one behind Nadja's disappearance/death, then I just don't see the writers killing a character like that off screen.
If that's just a question, that's a good one. I don't think it's Knight. David Gavilian-er "Damien Knight" (heh) I think still had a little bit of kinship with Haeffner from the Echo Mirage days, not to mention Kyle had basically handed Knight the keys and let them be the All-American Mega. Knight didn't really have a reason to off the prez, even with the possibility of a corp-backed career military person like Colloton taking the reins.
Colloton does make a good suspect, with how quickly that she "restored balance", and the implication in System Failure that there was some keyword with using the Thomas Jefferson quote in her speech, not to mention the hook that says that the whole unit involved in the president's "rescue" was eliminated due to "accidents". There are also a couple more interesting things to note if you will. In her 6WA pic (p 95- Year 2068), she's got a strange pyramid pin on her collar. That could be a hint that maybe there was something shady, as we old INWO fans know that triangle could both be an in-joke or a symbol of shady affiliations. If this is true, then I'm thinking that what happened was one of two things:
1) The New American Revolution decided that what they were attempting was too broad and decided to cut a few ties, focusing on UCAS leadership and expansion from there.
2) A whole different conspiracy was behind Colloton.
Unfortunately, we may have to wait until the 2076 election and whether or not Colloton gives up power to see...
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I thought that triangle thing on Colloton was a medal, awarded for her command in the former Renraku Arcology takeback operation. Haeffner supposedly distinctly remembered the ceremony (yeah, yeah, i know - implanted memory by INWO ::) )
My Question 3 was indeed a question - my bad in not making that clear (should have left off the 3, i suppose). Seeing as how Ares has lost out post-Haeffner, I'm inclined to agree that Knight/Ares are more unlikely.
Tossing in Rinelle was just as a possibility, given their relative proximity to Seattle. Hell, Brackhaven is just as much a suspect because Nadia is an Elf in UCAS power (big no-no, according to Humanis et al). I just looked up the 6WA entry, it says that Nadja survived an assassination attempt. So that's on record, as is her status as Acting President. But there's nothing to say she was sworn in. A pro tem President and Colloton are supposed to have gotten things back from whatever brink.
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In her 6WA pic (p 95- Year 2068), she's got a strange pyramid pin on her collar. That could be a hint that maybe there was something shady, as we old INWO fans know that triangle could both be an in-joke or a symbol of shady affiliations.
System Failure, page 106
Standing behind the podium was a steel-haired woman in her mid fifties, wearing the dress uniform of a UCAS general. Two stars graces each shoulder, and around her neck was a small silver medal shaped like a pyramid. Haeffner knew that honor well-he had awarded it only a year ago.
I think the author intended it be a Seattle Arcology Service Medal.
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In her 6WA pic (p 95- Year 2068), she's got a strange pyramid pin on her collar. That could be a hint that maybe there was something shady, as we old INWO fans know that triangle could both be an in-joke or a symbol of shady affiliations.
System Failure, page 106
Standing behind the podium was a steel-haired woman in her mid fifties, wearing the dress uniform of a UCAS general. Two stars graces each shoulder, and around her neck was a small silver medal shaped like a pyramid. Haeffner knew that honor well-he had awarded it only a year ago.
I think the author intended it be a Seattle Arcology Service Medal.
Heh, well to be honest, I was in conspiracy mode, I used to play INWO so "spot the pyramid" is still implanted in my subconscious... It's also done on like a collar pin (minus any other say flag pin or UCAS Military insignia) so it just looks... odd there. You're right, the artist prolly goofed a little and just stuck it on halfway just to try and back up that it was Colloton in that picture.
My Question 3 was indeed a question - my bad in not making that clear (should have left off the 3, i suppose). Seeing as how Ares has lost out post-Haeffner, I'm inclined to agree that Knight/Ares are more unlikely.
Tossing in Rinelle was just as a possibility, given their relative proximity to Seattle. Hell, Brackhaven is just as much a suspect because Nadia is an Elf in UCAS power (big no-no, according to Humanis et al). I just looked up the 6WA entry, it says that Nadja survived an assassination attempt. So that's on record, as is her status as Acting President. But there's nothing to say she was sworn in. A pro tem President and Colloton are supposed to have gotten things back from whatever brink.
The attempt could very well be Chaemera, like was suggested (a little retconning or at least making the shadowtalk to be the usual half-truth). As far as the pro tem, while it doesn't mention who it was in the original 4e book, in the 20th Anniversary (4A) it clarifies that Najda was in fact that President pro tem that told Colloton to declare martial law until things got settled down. That could mean that she might not have disappeared until 2068 when Colloton was elected. Why this suggestion is put into force is a) the pro tem deal probably could have been applied due to the suspended UCAS elections, which were not held again until '68 (unlike the CAS elections which went on the next year after the coup), which means that Nadja could have been P-pt until then as there has been no mention of a missing president.
However, I will admit that there is a semi-hole in that theory, as the writeup carried over in 4A was that "when elections were held again, we had little choice but to elect a President who ended up being nothing but a tool of the corps for his entire term". Which implies that there may have been elections SOME TIME between '64 and '68. I'm going on a limb here and thinking that since the UCAS and CAS elections were usually held on the same day, as they had been since at least 2060, that some time around 2/10/65 there was a UCAS special election like there was in the the south. It may have been accidentally left off of the writeup for '65 (not like that would be the only entry to make a oops typo in there), so we got some nameless prez in for 3 1/2 years instead of Najda, though she would have been eligible. This could in fact imply that she disappeared some time after she had Colloton declare martial law, since she was certainly popular enough to be elected President Daviar (being that Haeffner got overwhelmingly reelected in '60, and usually surviving veeps of assassinated presidents get that little extra oomph when people think about them at voting time). That she didn't get elected/didn't run is usually backed up by mentions of her being "former Vice President".
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You'll have a hole somewhere if you assume everything the books say are true, since they contradict each other. I have yet to find an explanation that can account for all of this :
System Failure, page 26
"Following Acting-President Daviar’s orders, Colloton declares Martial Law."
System Failure, page 106
"President Pro-Tempore Gene Simone will fulfill the duties of the President until President Haeffner and Vice President Daviar have been found. Martial law will remain in effect until the end of this crisis." [speech by General Angela Colloton]
Shadowrun 4th edition, page 34
"Under order from the President prom tem, General Angela Colloton declared martial law until the country was brought back under control.
When elections were held again, we had little choice but to elect a President who ended up being nothing but a tool of the corps during his entire term."
Running Wild, page 73
"Still ostensibly chaired by former UCAS Vice President Nadja Daviar, the [Draco Foundation] publicly works to enhance metahumanity's ability to interact effectively with the Awakened World."
Shadowrun 20th Anniversary, page 35
"Under orders from the President pro tem Nadja Daviar, General Angela Colloton declared martial law until the country was brought back under control."
Corporate Guide, page 49
"Nadja Daviar - Haeffner's vice-president and former voice of Dunkelzahn - went MIA during the UCAS coup d'état in the early days of the Crash 2.0." [comment by Frosty]
Corporate Guide, page 50
"It's only gotten worse since Nadja Daviar dropped off the face of the earth after the Haeffner assassination." [comment by Kay St. Irregular]
"Maybe the foundation decided to take a more active role in what it assumes would be Daviar's best interests." [comment by Plan 9]
"That's assuming that the foundation doesn't know Daviar's whereabouts." [comment by Frosty]
Corporate Guide, page 54
"The Draco Foundation - executor of Dunkelzahn's will - has controlled Gavilan Ventures ever since its CEO and former UCAS Vice-President Nadja Daviar went missing in 2065."
Discarding Running Wild is almost a necessity to make sense of it (remembering RW was originally planned as a 3rd edition book, a sloppy editing may explain some mistake). Also, the person who added Nadja Daviar name in the corebook history seemingly did not know what "president pro tem" stands for in the US. It might worth also noting the last quote from Corporate Guide says Daviar "went missing in 2065", which would be at least two months after the failed coup d'état. Daviar disappearing two times may provide the best explanations.
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I don't actually see too much of a contradiction.
Colloton could easily have named Gene Simone as President pro-tem before she learnt that Daviar was still alive and kicking, which would then make Daviar President pro-tem. For whatever reason (external pressure, no desire to be President, some other factor) Daviar declares martial law. Some new guy gets elected and is a corp puppet. Daviar disappears sometime in 2065 (between 2 and 14 months after the Crash).
She's still listed as CEO of the Draco Foundation, so Running Wild is fine - she's not been declared dead, after all.
It's not perfect, but that's the best way I can make sense of it all.
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Under the US Constitution, President pro tempore, or President pro tem, is an official in the Senate. The Vice President of the United States if the President of the Senate (though he can only vote when there is a tie). The Senate elects a President pro tempore to preside over in the absence of Vice President, or when he exercises the office of President of the United States (so as to maintain the separation of powers). The President pro tempore is third in line of succession to the Office of President of the United States, after the Vice President and the Speaker of the House of Representatives.
The Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America and Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets list a President pro tempore in the UCAS administration. NAGNA makes clear the office remains third in line of succession to the presidency of the United States.
Nadja Daviar was Vice President of the UCAS and President of the UCAS Senate. For her to become President pro tempore, she would have to resign as Vice President, get elected to the Senate and get elected President pro tempore by the Senate. Then the President pro tempore, Daviar are Gene Simmons, can become or act as President of the UCAS if the President, the Vice President and Speaker of the House are either dead, missing or unavailable.
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Well, an easy explanation is yes, whoever used that term in the books screwed up and used it incorrectly. He/she either meant temporary or thought that pro tem meant temporary.
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There will never be a satisfactory answer to what happened.
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There will never be a satisfactory answer to what happened.
. . . . unless someone goes out and FINDS the answer (and it ain't 42).
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There will never be a satisfactory answer to what happened.
*Shrugs* Isn't that what speculation is for? That's half the reason I post these, not because we're trying to nail down a 100% answer that you can use to shut everyone up, but it was meant to spur fun debate and research through the books for ideas as to what could have happened, maybe even spur on a story idea or two for people.
To reiterate the disclaimer I put up: This isn't a wheedling plea to people like Hardy and Adam for explanations or an accusation that they screwed up on x plot point. I appreciate the hard work that everyone who's ever penned the game has put in and understand the difficulties that it takes. If someone who works/worked on Shadowrun WANTS to give a "official" explanation, great. Or they can put their own speculation in. Grin It's all for fun.
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I am not trying to discourage discussion. But what has been written is so fraught with contradiction that it would be immensely difficult to publish a followup without explaining some of it, which does take away some of the fun and mystery, and in doing so further contradicting something. I am thinking about how attempts in other media, e.g. comics, to "fix" continuity end up fucking it up even more and that is very likely to happen in any instance of explaining the disappearance.
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What you say? Comics never screw up continuity or have to cobble together horrible retcons to explain things. Never. ::)
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I am not trying to discourage discussion. But what has been written is so fraught with contradiction that it would be immensely difficult to publish a followup without explaining some of it, which does take away some of the fun and mystery, and in doing so further contradicting something. I am thinking about how attempts in other media, e.g. comics, to "fix" continuity end up fucking it up even more and that is very likely to happen in any instance of explaining the disappearance.
No, to me it sounds like you're discouraging discussion. You're saying that it's never going to have an explanation so why bother. *Shrugs* That's what it sounds like to me. But ah well. We can at least not care and have fun anyway.
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I am not trying to discourage discussion. But what has been written is so fraught with contradiction that it would be immensely difficult to publish a followup without explaining some of it, which does take away some of the fun and mystery, and in doing so further contradicting something. I am thinking about how attempts in other media, e.g. comics, to "fix" continuity end up fucking it up even more and that is very likely to happen in any instance of explaining the disappearance.
The answer would be not to even try to do any followup if the authors and developers aren't able to maintain the required minimum of continuity between books. But that would no longer be the Shadowrun I used to know... I think I'd prefer someone to take a few lines to put clearly what will be the official version from now on, instead of having everybody dodging the topic. Ares chapter in Corporate Guide was a step short of the former. You couldn't reasonably spoke about a corporation while not adressing the status of its third largest shareholder.
It still strikes me that the "seven years plan" Dunkelzahn left to Daviar for the management of Gavilan Ventures (and by extension, its portfolio of Ares stock) started in 2057 and would have been finished in 2064. I'm also pretty sure that Damien Knight was okay with Daviar being Vice President as long as Haeffner was President. With Haeffner dead, Daviar was going to become President first per the Constitution, and then by winning the election. Maybe Knight threatened to support the New Revolution if Daviar did not leave the political stage.
Which remember me of another theory I have been toying with. Lucien Cross created the Seraphim sometimes during the 2030ies. Around that time, there were probaby a bunch of people who left the US intelligence community, as they were not willing or simply given the opportunity to choose between UCAS, CAS or California. So maybe there was a cell of New Revolution members within the Seraphim. That would put a new light on Lucien Cross death and some Seraphim joining Ares.
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That is just lazy. Just because the original book could not maintain a consistent story does not mean it is not worth exploring. The Revolution is a movement. Even if leader were executed in view of Ft. McNair's Generals Row there will always be a movement as long as the NAN exists. As for discussion there are a few questions. For example.
If Chimera was suspected, it could have been destroyed by the DF, Ares, and/or the UCAS. Riser's Smoker's Club and Chimera nearly took each other apart. Those three orgs could have annihilated it.
I am going to stop dancing around it just this once and say that Frank and others who feel compelled to discuss this same topic as a means of attacking Jason specifically do not know what they are talking about.
My biggest concern is that I don't want another Rinelle. Ever. That is the problem with trying to end or "correct" (in the case of the Rinelle) storylines in an ongoing story. Nothing ends completely just like in real life. The NR is a movement that will never die as long as the NAN exists. Daviar was one of the most famous and generally liked people on Earth. People still make jokes about Elvis sightings in Shadowrun. Instead you just get gaps that when later filled retroactively tend to screw with people's games.
Did Jetblack really need to come back for On the Run? Did Schwartz need go from a one-shot first ed. adventure fixer to run for Seattle governor? The thing about wondering what happened is that at some point an adventure may come out of it because the story never ends.
Anyway, I don't like that explaining even the original disappearance means having to clean up someone's mess and worse being something that can't be an ongoing mystery and adventure for players. It is not going to satisfy people who filled the gaps themselves only to have someone give a canon explanation that is not their own. They can ignore it, but then it creates the same problem anytime you disregard canon: why bother reading the books at all?
The thing about SR is that even normal humans live pretty long. Elves and dwarves even longer. Think about comeback stories now and add the lifetime to do that two or three more times.
Anyway the story is muddled shit. The attempt to clear the table of plots did the opposite of what was intended. It is fun to speculate but you can catalog every reference to Daviar since System Failure and none of them are a smoking gun.
And this is where I check out because I cannot and will not say more. Stupid me. I actually respect my NDA.
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That is just lazy. Just because the original book could not maintain a consistent story does not mean it is not worth exploring. The Revolution is a movement. Even if leader were executed in view of Ft. McNair's Generals Row there will always be a movement as long as the NAN exists. As for discussion there are a few questions. For example.
If Chimera was suspected, it could have been destroyed by the DF, Ares, and/or the UCAS. Riser's Smoker's Club and Chimera nearly took each other apart. Those three orgs could have annihilated it.
I am going to stop dancing around it just this once and say that Frank and others who feel compelled to discuss this same topic as a means of attacking Jason specifically do not know what they are talking about.
My biggest concern is that I don't want another Rinelle. Ever. That is the problem with trying to end or "correct" (in the case of the Rinelle) storylines in an ongoing story. Nothing ends completely just like in real life. The NR is a movement that will never die as long as the NAN exists. Daviar was one of the most famous and generally liked people on Earth. People still make jokes about Elvis sightings in Shadowrun. Instead you just get gaps that when later filled retroactively tend to screw with people's games.
Did Jetblack really need to come back for On the Run? Did Schwartz need go from a one-shot first ed. adventure fixer to run for Seattle governor? The thing about wondering what happened is that at some point an adventure may come out of it because the story never ends.
Anyway, I don't like that explaining even the original disappearance means having to clean up someone's mess and worse being something that can't be an ongoing mystery and adventure for players. It is not going to satisfy people who filled the gaps themselves only to have someone give a canon explanation that is not their own. They can ignore it, but then it creates the same problem anytime you disregard canon: why bother reading the books at all?
The thing about SR is that even normal humans live pretty long. Elves and dwarves even longer. Think about comeback stories now and add the lifetime to do that two or three more times.
Anyway the story is muddled shit. The attempt to clear the table of plots did the opposite of what was intended. It is fun to speculate but you can catalog every reference to Daviar since System Failure and none of them are a smoking gun.
And this is where I check out because I cannot and will not say more. Stupid me. I actually respect my NDA.
No offense, Crimson, but get off your high horse. I was NOT asking for any writer or creator to violate an NDA. This was not a freaking jab at the creators, so get off of that as well. I'm just a fan of Shadowrun for 15+ years who is just playing "let's try to unravel the conspiracy".
I do NOT appreciate you placing some sort of ulterior motive behind something that I did as FUN. I was not asking for canon unless it was explicitly written down in a book I did not see. What part of "This isn't a wheedling plea to people for explanations or an accusation that they screwed up on x plot point." Didn't you understand?
This is a game with 20 years of metaplot. It's fun to come up with explanations, especially if you can show off your research skills and back up your theories. You coming along and crapping all over it is NOT fun.
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I think some wires got crossed here. As Acme says, Crimsondude, he's just doing fan speculation on the subject and isn't looking for anyone to actually give him hard and fast answers.
On the other side, Acme, there was some freelancer discussions regarding similar topics that were leaked to those not part of the original freelancer group, so Crimsondude and other freelancers are a little wary when discussion of Nadja comes up.
No harm, no foul on either side, so please don't let this devolve into something else.
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I think some wires got crossed here. As Acme says, Crimsondude, he's just doing fan speculation on the subject and isn't looking for anyone to actually give him hard and fast answers.
On the other side, Acme, there was some freelancer discussions regarding similar topics that were leaked to those not part of the original freelancer group, so Crimsondude and other freelancers are a little wary when discussion of Nadja comes up.
No harm, no foul on either side, so please don't let this devolve into something else.
Sorry about the attitude, FJ. I... am largely distant from other forums due to similar attitudes as CD's semi-accusation so it kinda made me a little tweaky that somehow I was suddenly part of a group trying to flame the writers.
And hey, I understand the concept of the sore subject. If he'd have said that instead of going "ALL DISCUSSION IS POINTLESS" then I'd be fine with that. Obviously freelancers have their own ideas/theories for what's in the works, or else Nadja wouldn't even have been mentioned in Corp Guide/Vice- and the mention of her disappearance being so important to muddling up Ares made me think when I crafted the post six months ago. Like I said, not asking for NDA-breaking explanations here, just a thing to encourage discussion, maybe to help breed run ideas in people's heads, and playing conspiracy theorist is fun.
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You'll have a hole somewhere if you assume everything the books say are true, since they contradict each other. I have yet to find an explanation that can account for all of this :
System Failure, page 26
"Following Acting-President Daviar’s orders, Colloton declares Martial Law."
System Failure, page 106
"President Pro-Tempore Gene Simone will fulfill the duties of the President until President Haeffner and Vice President Daviar have been found. Martial law will remain in effect until the end of this crisis." [speech by General Angela Colloton]
Shadowrun 4th edition, page 34
"Under order from the President prom tem, General Angela Colloton declared martial law until the country was brought back under control.
When elections were held again, we had little choice but to elect a President who ended up being nothing but a tool of the corps during his entire term."
Running Wild, page 73
"Still ostensibly chaired by former UCAS Vice President Nadja Daviar, the [Draco Foundation] publicly works to enhance metahumanity's ability to interact effectively with the Awakened World."
Shadowrun 20th Anniversary, page 35
"Under orders from the President pro tem Nadja Daviar, General Angela Colloton declared martial law until the country was brought back under control."
Corporate Guide, page 49
"Nadja Daviar - Haeffner's vice-president and former voice of Dunkelzahn - went MIA during the UCAS coup d'état in the early days of the Crash 2.0." [comment by Frosty]
Corporate Guide, page 50
"It's only gotten worse since Nadja Daviar dropped off the face of the earth after the Haeffner assassination." [comment by Kay St. Irregular]
"Maybe the foundation decided to take a more active role in what it assumes would be Daviar's best interests." [comment by Plan 9]
"That's assuming that the foundation doesn't know Daviar's whereabouts." [comment by Frosty]
Corporate Guide, page 54
"The Draco Foundation - executor of Dunkelzahn's will - has controlled Gavilan Ventures ever since its CEO and former UCAS Vice-President Nadja Daviar went missing in 2065."
Discarding Running Wild is almost a necessity to make sense of it (remembering RW was originally planned as a 3rd edition book, a sloppy editing may explain some mistake). Also, the person who added Nadja Daviar name in the corebook history seemingly did not know what "president pro tem" stands for in the US. It might worth also noting the last quote from Corporate Guide says Daviar "went missing in 2065", which would be at least two months after the failed coup d'état. Daviar disappearing two times may provide the best explanations.
I would run it the way that 4A was just a typo (that´s the simplest solution and thus also the most likely for me), Daviar became acting president after Haeffner was lost, then vanished herself after an attempted chimera assassination. Gene Simone -freshly elected PPT by which ever members of the senat where still available- took over controll, and made the presidential elections that followed right after the crash, but turned into a corporate puppet. Coloton won the hot seat next.
The DF might or might not know Daviars whereabouts, but they sure got some instructions how to handle Gavilan Ventures, a departure from previous behaviour can mean they ran out of instructions or the situation changed enough to trigger some conditional instructions.
For what Daviar actually does with all that free time, my guess is as good or bad as anyones. I like the idear, that she is still hiding from Chimera, while taking care of undercover or private business. In my game she will certainly not sit her babies with RM, first and foremost because he´s so anoying. Maybe she makes backroom deals with the IEs/GDs/some other crazy guys. Though she may not be an IE herself, I always thought she (and Claudia Romanov) was at least a spike baby, as she apeared out of nowhere before getting picked up by the big lizard. I also thought she would be a Drako herself (either that or latent magic, since DZ never allowed her to have any cyber)- which might also mean that she got snuged away by some GD as a status symbol.
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Considering how long lived even your average Joe Elf on the street is, I think the question of wether Daviar or any other elf is an IE is rather immaterial at this time. And for the next decades, heh.
And I agree that all those contradictions can be made to stick together. Its not all that bad. Of course, there is always the risk of new material destroying what playing groups have already made up about the topic, but that is a risk with virtually every new publication. If that rational was followed to its logical end, there should be no Shadowrun sourcebooks or scenarios be published any more at all.
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Funny thing is that we wouldn't have to delete the Running Wild stuff since the term is uses is "ostensibly", ie "supposed to" or "presumed to", so the term there could just be "Well, we THINK she's running things but she vanished so..."
Anywho, DF runs Gavilian's voting and they posted Nick A. to the board, so the idea that she left them instructions is pretty good. ND usually was a check against Knight anyway, so leaving behind someone who's a bigger check makes sense to handle things.