[farothel]

To be honest, considering everything the Lone Star officer would need in the way of skills to do his job properly, and what he'd need in the way of gear other than what you're giving to survive those he's supposed to apprehend, it would be wiser by far to give your players a full 500 at least.

Not necessary, as they don't have to buy all that.  They receive the equipment to use during their duty shift (anything mentioned above and also things like the patrol car itself, one or two drones, maybe even a K-9 unit if a player wants tot do that), but they have to return it afterwards.  So the players don't have to pay for it themselves.  But they also don't own the equipment either.

[All4BigGuns]

To be honest, considering everything the Lone Star officer would need in the way of skills to do his job properly, and what he'd need in the way of gear other than what you're giving to survive those he's supposed to apprehend, it would be wiser by far to give your players a full 500 at least.

Not necessary, as they don't have to buy all that.  They receive the equipment to use during their duty shift (anything mentioned above and also things like the patrol car itself, one or two drones, maybe even a K-9 unit if a player wants tot do that), but they have to return it afterwards.  So the players don't have to pay for it themselves.  But they also don't own the equipment either.

It takes being very, very good at a lot of skills to be a successful cop. That said, the 400 points could work, but it wouldn't be as skilled as I think a PC in a profession should be. The PCs should be special, a cut or twenty above the others in the same profession.

Also, they likely would have to pay for any implants themselves.

[Lethe]

For being a successful cop maybe, but it seems they are supposed to be average. So 1ish ranks at influence/athletics/driving and a little more at firearms/dodge/perception is good enough to start out with i guess. That's easily doable with 400BP, heck 350BP even. Especially if they don't need to spend too much on gear and contacts.

They might get some extra payment from LS for it though, if the implant makes them "better" in doing their job. Maybe not at first, but after it proves to be an advantage.

[Bruce]

The point build (I'd go with 350 personally) would seem about right for fresh-faced Academy graduates; capable physically (I'd let them, and strongly encourage them, to spend 200 BP on attributes) but lacking the street-smarts and experience of officers who have a few years in. 

FYI, in our time period most specialized jobs (SWAT, Freeway Patrol, Detective Bureau, etc.) require some political pull within the department to obtain.  That could indicate a contact in the upper echolons of Lone Star.

And the players should take a Knowledge Skill in report-writing; that's a critical cop skill.

[JustADude]

I would also supply them with a shotgun or SMG of some kind.  Most police forces have one shotgun in the patrol car, just in case.  And often they have SMGs at the station for those times they need some heavier firepower.

Given the progressive level of paranoia and violence in the 2070s, they'd probably have full ARs, if not BRs, in the car instead of a shotgun.

[All4BigGuns]

I would also supply them with a shotgun or SMG of some kind.  Most police forces have one shotgun in the patrol car, just in case.  And often they have SMGs at the station for those times they need some heavier firepower.

Given the progressive level of paranoia and violence in the 2070s, they'd probably have full ARs, if not BRs, in the car instead of a shotgun.

That's a good point too. If there's a hacker-type character, perhaps have him issued with commlink and programs out of War!.

[CitizenJoe]

Actually, automatic weapons are not permissible in Seattle.  That means pistols and shotguns.  Assault rifles and SMGs only come out for mission specific SWAT operations.  Those are kept under lock and key in the armory until needed.

[farothel]

Also, they likely would have to pay for any implants themselves.

I assume they would get at least a Discount, as it does make them better in their job.  And they might get their hands on things they otherwise might not, like F rated implants (although probably not at first).  It's even possible (I don't know the corporate structure of Lone Star) that they have hospitals themselves where they can do the implants.  Otherwise they might have agreements with other hospital providers.

[JustADude]

I would also supply them with a shotgun or SMG of some kind.  Most police forces have one shotgun in the patrol car, just in case.  And often they have SMGs at the station for those times they need some heavier firepower.

Given the progressive level of paranoia and violence in the 2070s, they'd probably have full ARs, if not BRs, in the car instead of a shotgun.

That's a good point too. If there's a hacker-type character, perhaps have him issued with commlink and programs out of War!.

Actually, automatic weapons are not permissible in Seattle.  That means pistols and shotguns.  Assault rifles and SMGs only come out for mission specific SWAT operations.  Those are kept under lock and key in the armory until needed.

So probably some really badass shotguns and a selection of slugs, regular flechette, and AP flichette for use as the situation requires?

[Captain Karzak]

Re: Manhunter vs. Thunderbolt.  The Thunderbolt gets its power from the fact that it is firing three rounds at once.  Essentially burst fire.  These are special rounds that are sequentially stacked caseless rounds.  I know many of you want to just alphabet soup that ammo, but it really makes my brain hurt to think about what you're trying to do.  So, for the vanilla manhunter vs. thunderbolt, the Thunderbolt wins hands down.  But when you get into stock, easy access alternative ammo, the Manhunter outshines the Thunderbolt.

So this is totally wrong. I can only assume you are describing the YSK and not the Ruger Thunderbolt. Regardless of ammo available, the Thunderbolt is the better gun and the comparison is not even that close. By offering the players between a choice between one of the worst handguns (the manhunter), and one of the very best (the Thunderbolt), the OP is just giving poor optimizers some rope to hang themselves with. Why would a GM purposely do that except out of spite?

Actually, automatic weapons are not permissible in Seattle. 

Again this is totally wrong. Not all assault rifles have a F legality rating. Off the top of my head, both the AK-97 and the Colt M22A3 are only restricted. Furthermore every single SMG in the main rulebook has only an R-rating.

Also, the Thunderbolt does only fire in BF, however that isn't really a big issue, since it still uses the Pistol skill. The only downsides are the short "lifespan" of the clip, and the recoil on the second burst, which is only an issue if they fire it twice in one IP... and I might suggest allowing them to "requisition" something like a gas-vent accessory (only if they think to ask, of course) to neutralize that as well.

You can't add gas vents to pistols. This is mentioned in the description of the gas vent accessory in the main rulebook, and in Arsenal when describing the gas vent modification.

They could add a personalized grip and a folding stock at minimal extra cost (about 130 nuYen) to bring RC up to 4 (the Thunderbolt has 2 inherent RC).

Another question I have for people: how do you suggest I handle the plethora of cameras and sensors throughout Seattle?  I'm sure LS would have immediate access to any sensors owned by the city and that they would have their own network operating in public areas.  I suppose for these things, I should mostly just provide the PCs with info that the first on the scene cops and forensics crews have discovered.  Or should I make the PCs have to work for this evidence themselves?  There would be plenty of digital eyes out there belonging to other corps and private individuals.  Should I play this stuff up or let it ride more in the background?  Should I let this be a regular source of leads or only occasionally?  Thoughts?

The Runners Companion p.23 has useful things to say on the topic of public surveillance which suggests they should only provide intermittent leads to the cops. These systems face 3 [EDIT]] 4 critical obstacles:

(1) Content-recognition problem: The such a ridiculous amount of data recorded by all forms of surveillance every single second that filtering it all to find leads is actually a mammoth task that is not going to often provide a just-in-time solution.

(2) Data balkanziation: Seattle is a patchwork of jurisdictions, and information does not easily or readily flow between them. The bureaucratic wrangling can delay an investigation by hours or days, assuming Lonestar can even get the other party to play ball.

(3) Data completeness: All personal info is linked to a SIN. For SINless operatives, there may be a lot of info out there on such an individual, but it remains distributed over many identities and unlinked databases rather than seamlessly flowing into a single file folder for a particular suspect.

(4) Data veracity: It's easy to falsify bits and pieces of the data to create a misleading profile or false trails. Rewriting all the info linked to a SIN is like virtually impossible, but adding inaccuracies is very doable.

[Tecumseh]

This game sounds fun and I think I would enjoy it. Getting back to the original question/poll of build points, as a player I would prefer having the full 400 BP but with some guidelines about how it can be spent. For example, you could require that the players spend 50 BP on contacts and knowledge skills. These are often neglected in a regular game but would especially helpful for detectives trying to solve a case. You could cap active skills at rating 3 ("Professional", by the book's description) to encourage skill diversification. One of my favorite characters is one I created for a game where Magic and Resources were capped at a low level, forcing me to spend my points elsewhere. The result was a well-rounded character that had a specialty but also a lot of fun secondary skills that don't always get a lot of game time since they're not part of an optimal build for a shadowrunner.

[Irian]

So this is totally wrong.

Agreed, the thunderbolt is simply a burst-fire pistol, nothing more. It was special in 2055, when it was still a "Lone Star only" weapon and possesion of one would mark you as a cop killer, but in 2070? Just another gun...

Actually, automatic weapons are not permissible in Seattle. 

Again this is totally wrong. Not all assault rifles have a F legality rating.

I doubt that the argument can be made by the legality of the gun, as legality only describes if something may be purchased by a private person (s. SR4A, p. 313). it says nothing about the availablity for police, army, corp security, etc.

[CitizenJoe]

If you're allowed to get permits for automatic weapons in 4th edition then that is a dramatic change from prior editions. 

A police officer does not want flechette ammo, there is too much chance for collateral damage which could endanger the law enforcement contract.  You've got slugs for stopping power and then gel/beanbags for crowd control.  You'll also have door buster ammo for entry.  If someone has too much armor, you call in SWAT.  They will bring in the big guns and fancy ammo.  Those guns and ammo will be checked out and checked back in at the end of that mission.  They do not 'Carry' those weapons around. 

This is the Thunderbolt description that I'm talking about: (3rd ed.)
The chosen weapon of Lonestar, the Ruger Thunderbolt fires only in burst-fire mode (damage code already adjusted) due to a unique type of ammunition. Three bullets are lined up in each caseless cartridge and are ignited electrically in sequence. Recoil is negated because the last of the three leaves the barrel before the recoil of the first affects the gun. The force of three bullets leaving the barrel at once doubles the recoil of the second burst however. (+4 recoil penalty). The Thunderbolt comes with either an underbarrel laser sight (+250n¥) or an internal smartlink (+400n¥).

The Manhunter from 3rd ed. is almost identical to the Predator, only it is cheaper and has an integral laser sight.

[Irian]

If you're allowed to get permits for automatic weapons in 4th edition then that is a dramatic change from prior editions. 

"You", as in "private citizen" can not get a permit for automatic weapons, no. "You", as in "police officer on duty", on the other hand, can. And I doubt that the legality code in SR3 was used to determine if the cops may use a weapon - it's just for the citizens, not the police.

A police officer does not want flechette ammo, there is too much chance for collateral damage which could endanger the law enforcement contract.  You've got slugs for stopping power and then gel/beanbags for crowd control.  You'll also have door buster ammo for entry.  If someone has too much armor, you call in SWAT.  They will bring in the big guns and fancy ammo.  Those guns and ammo will be checked out and checked back in at the end of that mission.  They do not 'Carry' those weapons around.

I did not say that every cop has a whole arsenal in his trunk, just that he may legally use much more weapons than a normal citizen. And in Shadowrun I would assume that most cop cars come with automatic rifles in the trunk, as the world has become a lot more dangerous.

This is the Thunderbolt description that I'm talking about: (3rd ed.)

Oh, you're right. Seems like that was retconned a little bit.

[Bruce]

A fun part of Lone Star work could be allowing the players to have access to really big guns...but they not only have to file reports detailing WHY they need the big guns, but an after-run report as to how the weapons were used, did they prove necessary, etc.