[Smiley]

Battle Royale FTFW!

Honestly, I'm a little surprised how many people are just going for the bigger badder opponent with even bigger friggin' guns. Oh well, people are free to do as wish but I think I'm going to appreciate my GM even more now.

[Serious Paul]

Control their actions, put them out of their element, misdirect, confuse, distract, delay, and destroy.You don't need to be stronger than them, just smarter.

This sums it nicely, and his list is pretty nice. Put aside the concept of winning, and stopping them. Challenge them by changing how the formula works. If they blast their way through every situation, throw a situation that can't be blasted through to complete. Or conversely have them only get jobs that become increasingly more dangerous, and require increasingly heavy weaponry. Drop hints that their street rep is those disposable guys who kill everything. There's a lot of fun to be had-be sure to also discuss what you see with your players. Get their input. If they're having fun, you're doing it right. if they're not having fun then change it. If you're not having fun, let them know why. Most players I've dealt with seem willing to help make the game fun for everyone. Including the Game Master.

[JustADude]

I honestly want to know where the problem is with them being able to consistently and cleanly win at what they do. They are highly skilled professional hitters, aren't they?

The way the world works is if a person is good at their job and doesn't over-reach their capacity (Pink Mohawk assault on an Ares High Threat Incident Response staging facility, anyone?), then they have a very good chance of staying alive and successful. It's not the job of the GM to throw them into a shark tank because they can handle the regular pool, it's to dangle shiny prizes over the shark tank so they jump in willingly.

Of course, this all depends on if they're smart enough to use the rule that allows them to "burn" street cred to get rid of notoriety at a 2:1 ratio to keep a relatively low profile.

EDIT: Looks like Serious Paul summed it all up nicely and beat me to the punch.

[Smiley]

JustADude is right about wondering what is wrong about being over the top in combat and always winning at this. It makes the characters badasses and their players proud of their characters. It's fun and they are happy. At this point if they don't slip up into downright stupidity it's okay that they always win firefights. If their players wants challenges and adversity to spice things up, GMs should do it in other areas. That way they can still boast their chest at being badasses but still have some difficulties along the way.

[CanRay]

They drink to a well-done job!

And wake up naked save for some kind of collar in a shipping container with a bunch of other Shadowrunners from the Sprawl.  On a deserted island.  It opens up to blinding, painful light...  And a bunch of clubs and knives and other simplistic weapons...

"You've all have explosive collars attached to your necks, try to remove them, boom.  Try to not play the game, boom.  The game is...  SURVIVAL...  Only one of you is getting out alive.  The prize?  Well, we get the prize...  RATINGS!!!"

So Super Smash TV crossed with Survivor?

"Big money! Big Prizes! I Love it!"

I knew someone would get it!

I was also thinking "Mean Guns".  Bad movie, but so Cyberpunk in a lot of ways!  Just a hint, don't watch with your Grandmother and Great-Uncle.  Oops.

[ArkangelWinter]

I honestly want to know where the problem is with them being able to consistently and cleanly win at what they do. They are highly skilled professional hitters, aren't

Of course, this all depends on if they're smart enough to use the rule that allows them to "burn" street cred to get rid of notoriety at a 2:1 ratio to keep a relatively low profile.

EDIT: Looks like Serious Paul summed it all up nicely and beat me to the punch.

Yea, it just gets boring to me and them occassionally when they can go into most combats without fear of great harm. Mostly I get disgruntled bc it's like running 2 meat parties, them plus the other 2, in addition to dealing with the usual astral and matrix events

[Serious Paul]

And that's cool. Discuss it with them. Solutions can range from retiring those characters-everything ends right?- to they've grown so successful that they now have to worry about the up and coming people who want to wax them to get a rep for themselves. Deal with that. The plot hooks are endless. Off the top of my head here are some the headaches being good can get you:

• People ant to kill you for the rep it will give them.
• Corporations may decide taking you out before you can hurt them suddenly makes sense.
• No one can pay your wages, because your rep precedes you and people figure you'll just cost too much, so they hire the cheaper talent.
• People want your help. I mean like everyone. And it's not just the come get my cat out of this tree stuff, but hey we know you guys can kill this Horror from the 4th world right?
• Fans. Press. Cameras. Add in the local law enforcement becoming aware of these master mind criminals who'd look great cuffed up on the nightly recap...
• Hey it's me Lofwyr, and I heard great things about you guys. I swear I'd never send you on a suicide job, but....

Depending on how your group rolls, discuss it with them. let them know both what you feel (Bored) and the internally consistent consequences of success. Some good. Some bad.

[Zilfer]

The other half of that duo is a vampire adept. 2 IP for vampire plus 3 for Improved Reflexes, and with max Agility, maxed Blades with Aptitude, and Improved Blades 2 (and custom grip), he's getting 5 passes where he regularly 2 hit kills even heavily armored and cybered opponents. The only real balance Ive found is his restriction to night action, but he uses a body suit and helmet to cirumvent that in rough neighborhoods.

A few things also about the vampire

1st to damage him, do things he can't heal from like fire, or maybe there's a dojo master that uses a wooden sword who knows? Anyways the allergy can really suck when used against them.

2nd I'm pretty sure the 2 IP's of the vampire and the Wired reflex do not stack IP's so for example a wired reflexes 1 would do nothing for a vampire.

3rd. You do know anything that has regeneration needs Delta ware otherwise the body rejects the bioware, which means that Wired reflexes 3 in that vampire has to be worth 1,000,000 Nuyen because it's * 10 the base cost..... that might be worth killing that vampire just to get the ware.... o.O'

[ArkangelWinter]

Rhe vamp isn't cybered; it's the adept Imp Reflex power

[Mirikon]

The limit is 4 initiative passes, period, unless a specific power or ability says otherwise.

[JustADude]

The limit is 4 initiative passes, period, unless a specific power or ability says otherwise.

Check again. Here's the relevant quote from SR4A, p68:

"Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever achieve 4."

So, it is possible for a rare few characters to get 5 IPs, which means that someone with a base of 2 IPs, like a Vampire, can stack an Initiative Pass Booster to get to the hard-cap. However, a Vampire Rigger would NOT be able to get 6 Matrix IPs using the typical combo.

[Tagz]

The limit is 4 initiative passes, period, unless a specific power or ability says otherwise.

Check again. Here's the relevant quote from SR4A, p68:

"Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever achieve 4."

So, it is possible for a rare few characters to get 5 IPs, which means that someone with a base of 2 IPs, like a Vampire, can stack an Initiative Pass Booster to get to the hard-cap. However, a Vampire Rigger would NOT be able to get 6 Matrix IPs using the typical combo.

The language is open to that interpretation.  However, I believe it to be a stretch.

Unwired p 198 Simsense Accelerator:
... It is compatable with simsense booster cyberware (so a hacker in hot sim with a simsense accelerator and simsense booster cyberware has 5 Initiative Passes).  Initiative Passes; this is an exception to the rule that normally limits IPs to 4).

Now, despite a few obvious gramatical mistakes (like the extra close para-emphases, and the "Initiative Passes;"), the intent and meaning is still pretty clear.  When the two pieces of equipment are combined it achieves 5 IPs, a break in limit.  The important part is that this is CLEARLY EXEMPTED.

I see no reason given this precedence that your interpretation should be considered correct, especially given the ramifications to game balance.

[JustADude]

I see no reason given this precedence that your interpretation should be considered correct, especially given the ramifications to game balance.

Very nice, very nice indeed. You have just one rather tiny flaw in your argument. What I've stated is not an "interpretation". My source is a word-for-word quote from the latest edition of the core rule book. This is a clear statement of system functionality written in plain, properly grammatical English. That trumps any hazy and equivocal reference you may be able to pull from another source.

The hard-cap for IPs is 5. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200¥. Underline, bold, CAPITALIZE, and italicize all you want, it's not going to change that fact.

I don't know what the guy that wrote Simsense Accelerator was trying to say or prove, or what he was smoking when he wrote it. All I can possibly conceive of is that it was meant as an assurance that it does stack with Simsense Booster, and just got phrased in a piss-poor manner.

However, going back and looking at the Infected Attribute Modifier Table in the Runner's Companion (p79) I do see now that the IP boost doesn't stack with other forms of "IP augmentation", so while I am still correct that the potential hard limit is still 5 IPs, the Vampire could not achieve such a state because his HMHVV boost doesn't stack with the Adept Power, and for no other reason.






P.S. The word you were looking for is "precedent". Precedence is used for relative description, with one thing "taking precedence over" another, like the explicit rules in the core rule-book taking precedence over a vague allusion in a supplement.

[Mirikon]

The language was put in there because since the fourth edition book came out there were a few, very specific, exceptions to the rule that you could only have four initiative passes. The fact that these ways all specifically say they bypass the normal rule that you can't get more than 4 IP only reinforces the argument. In fact, elsewhere in the book it says that most characters cannot get more than 4 IP, even if they spend Edge, the Increase Reflexes spell out and out says that the most you can get is 4, and all the other ways to get extra IPs are capped at +3 IP, and outright say that they can't be combined with other enhancements to initiative.

Your argument is like saying "Well, no one saw my client shoot the guy five times in the head. They just heard five shots from the next room, and came in thirty seconds later to see him standing over the dead man holding a gun that had recently been fired five times and my client had gunpowder residue on his hands. But that doesn't PROVE anything!"

[JustADude]

The language was put in there because since the fourth edition book came out there were a few, very specific, exceptions to the rule that you could only have four initiative passes. The fact that these ways all specifically say they bypass the normal rule that you can't get more than 4 IP only reinforces the argument. In fact, elsewhere in the book it says that most characters cannot get more than 4 IP, even if they spend Edge, the Increase Reflexes spell out and out says that the most you can get is 4, and all the other ways to get extra IPs are capped at +3 IP, and outright say that they can't be combined with other enhancements to initiative.

Wow, nice attempt at distraction with your hyperbolic analogy, which has nothing at all to do with this situation.

The rules plainly state that the hard-cap is 5, no more and no less. Unless you can explain to me how the phrase "The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5" has any room for an alternate interpretation, then you are just plain wrong. I hate to be like that but, to me, you sound like you're trying to argue that 2+2 equals 3 instead of 4. I can't break things down any further because we're already at the fundamental, self-evident level.

And, before you even go there, the follow-up clause "but most character types can only ever achieve 4" is irrelevant to the discussion. All this does is warn characters of the things that you mentioned, that most, but not all, methods of IP enhancement fall short of the hard limit. This does not, however, change what the limit is any more than the Augmented Maximum on a stat is lowered just because there's no way to stack enough bonuses to reach it.

I'm not above admitting I'm wrong when someone actually invalidates my point or can cite a superior precedent, but so far the only argument I've seen boil down to "The limit is 4 because it's always been 4, and it will always be 4 because it has always been 4... except when it's 5."