NEWS

Anyone else have a problem with Infiltration?

  • 88 Replies
  • 21042 Views

Thermo

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 883
« Reply #30 on: <10-15-11/1929:12> »
Quote

Threshhold of 18? I can almost beat that with my 27 Edged gunslinger's dice. >.>

Just made another character that has 34 dice edged for a combat roll as well.... <.<

My average tends to be 13 dice, but that's just average.... :P

Nah, threshold on each individual die. In SR3, you took the # on the die and compared it to a target. In this case, 18. To get an 18, you need each individual die to roll a 6, then another 6, then another 6. All dice in SR3 were using the Rule of Six to meet thresholds. Every die that scored 18 or more was a hit. Average thresholds were 4 or 5.

yep, what he said.

The advantage as a GM is that as the threshold increased it became exponentially harder to meet it, so there really WAS a big difference between a threshold of 11 and a threshold of 14. Just having PC's throw more dice pool (and edge) at it gave them depreciating returns.
So you went from threshold 6 (1/6) to threshold 8 (5/36)? man, that's a jump.

That example isn't representative of what I'm talking about.. try going from threshold 5 (1/3) to threshold 9 (1/9) to threshold 11 (1/18) to threshold 15 (1/54)

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that with the old system, if you try to do something crazy, throwing more dice at it just isn't going to cut it

I will agree with you that there seemed to be certain "groupings" of probability, i.e. threshold 6 was the exact same as threshold 7, and threshold 8 was only marginally harder. Didn't say it was a perfect system.  :)

Kontact

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3147
  • You called?
« Reply #31 on: <10-16-11/2322:34> »
 ???  This isn't a problem with infiltration. 

The Wyrm Ouroboros

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
  • I Have Taken All Shadowrun To Be My Province
« Reply #32 on: <10-17-11/0229:23> »
It is extremely frustrating, because every challenge I design for this infiltration expert results in him breezing through it.

I have asked him not to run off and leave the party on it's own so often, but that is the only concession i have gotten from him. It is irritating to the extreme when I have to fiat just to get the story to stay on track and the super-important NPC does NOT die.

Well, there's your problem.  Sure, maybe he's megalucky with dice when he's hands-on, maybe he's subtly cheating (numerous ways to do this, note), and maybe the cup-roller thing will slash it into ribbons.  From where I'm sitting, though, your challenges are the wrong ones.

Clearly, he's acing every infiltration challenge you're giving him -- sneaking past Guard A and Dog B.  For an add-on, please remember that you cannot sneak through a maglocked door, no matter how stealthy you are; you need to hack the maglock.  And sure, maybe he's got that beat too, but I personally wouldn't bet on that right this second.  So your problem is that you're challenging character (and player) in the Area Of His Expertise.

Of course he's gonna succeed.

The place you have to challenge characters if you want them to lose and have a growing experience is where they are not good.  In the convention mission (CMP 2011-05, Burn Notice) that I played in with Spanner at DragonCon, one of the characters -- personal combat, stealth, had monofilament whip out the wazoo, I think -- was a Russian with some deep Vory contacts.  We were making contact with the Vory, and needed to negotiate some stuff.  The table GM, instead of going with the Elven Pornomancer and his 28 dice (y'know, I still wanna know how you get 50+ dice), apparently decided that the Vory would only deal with the Russian.

Guy played it great, but the point here is that suddenly Stealthy McWireslicer is being required to play outside his areaThis is the challenge; not the stealth-required squeezing through here or there, tip-toeing along to recover the target, but being shoved in front to act as the Face.

How's your problem child set for --
  • Driving
  • Negotiation
  • Con
  • Covering Fire
  • Hardware
  • Hacking
-- or any of a dozen other skills?

Athletics?  Diving?  Force him to 'sneak' underwater through one of Seattle's dozens of submarine outlets.

Let him wander off, mousetrap the rest of the team, and require him to hack a car's security, hotwire it, and drive to the rescue.

Manipulate the team into wanting him as a sniper / overwatch gunman in an office directly across from the building in which they're going to meet The Bad Guy, ready to start punching AV rounds through the windows so the rigger can get his drone carrying THEIR gear in through the window as well as give them time to arm up.  Oh, he'll think his challenge is sneaking up there with a TK-7A with 150 rounds of AV ammo, but you know the real challenge is going to be when he has to suppress the guys sneaking around the far side of the other room, trying to flank his crew,

Guy isn't invisible/intangible, or even Not There on the Astral, I presume; let a security mage running a 'detect sneaky bastard' spell locate him.  Or have a security checkpoint in one direction, and a bunch of half-drunk 'Joe's Birthday Party' wageslaves come the other way, completely filling the hall.  Use a security rigger; 'Wait a minute, the door to 1021 just opened, and there's nobody there.'

Or like the story above -- drop him into a group where his uniqueness matches their uniqueness, and Bossman decides that he'll only talk to Sneakerboy -- with a jammer running.  Uh-oh, no wireless help from his friends, he's gotta negotiate the deal on his own.

Give him things to do, events to win, but challenge him (or beat him like a drum) in other areas.
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.


clashmasterj

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 32
« Reply #34 on: <10-17-11/1148:09> »
I want Ouroboros for MY GM
Player : "Can I call one of my hacker friends?"
GM : "You don't have any friends."
Player pouts.

Mason

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1127
  • You don't know as many spells as I do, omae!
« Reply #35 on: <10-17-11/2049:55> »
I seem to have a problem more with perception, upon second examination. It has SO many negatives, but Infiltration doesn't have as many, and it is far easier to buff Agility than it is to buff Intuition.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
  • I Have Taken All Shadowrun To Be My Province
« Reply #36 on: <10-18-11/0203:12> »
Sure, and it can cost a whole bunch in cyberware, etc.  However, remember this one wonderful thing:

Tacnet.

If scum-of-the-earth (even if they are cream of the scum) shadowrunners can whack together a R4 tacnet program and get 4 additional dice for damn near everything, then you can betcha any corp with stuff worth stealing is going to have their security running a tacnet every damn night.  +4 dice for Perception to everyone.

And everything.  Please, please don't forget stuff like ultrasound, radar, MAD detectors built into the doorframes, sealed windows with sensor-wires woven through them -- things where the tech to avoid it simply doesn't exist for Max Infiltrate to buy, or 'strict security' measures that he will have to make a Perception roll to notice -- and which might well give him penalties to detect.

The hostage dilemma is logically unsolvable; make it his problem.  In this case, it's a Perception problem, but again, make it HIS problem, putting 'tripwire' tech where he can't help but cross it.

... y'know, I can see a secure entry room where the first door closes, the people inside get 'checked over' by security, and then they get let through -- but where one of the checks is a low-power UV laser grid scan of the room.  He may be ruthenium polymered and thermo cloaked into invisibility, but ruthenium can't imitate a laser...
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

Mason

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1127
  • You don't know as many spells as I do, omae!
« Reply #37 on: <10-18-11/1147:14> »
Tacnet grants extra Perception dice? O.o
Oh, wait, you mean the program, not the method of linking everyone's comms for communication purposes. We don't use that, but if it helps solve this problem, I just might sneak it in there.

Zilfer

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1326
« Reply #38 on: <10-18-11/1343:22> »
Sure, and it can cost a whole bunch in cyberware, etc.  However, remember this one wonderful thing:

Tacnet.

If scum-of-the-earth (even if they are cream of the scum) shadowrunners can whack together a R4 tacnet program and get 4 additional dice for damn near everything, then you can betcha any corp with stuff worth stealing is going to have their security running a tacnet every damn night.  +4 dice for Perception to everyone.

And everything.  Please, please don't forget stuff like ultrasound, radar, MAD detectors built into the doorframes, sealed windows with sensor-wires woven through them -- things where the tech to avoid it simply doesn't exist for Max Infiltrate to buy, or 'strict security' measures that he will have to make a Perception roll to notice -- and which might well give him penalties to detect.

The hostage dilemma is logically unsolvable; make it his problem.  In this case, it's a Perception problem, but again, make it HIS problem, putting 'tripwire' tech where he can't help but cross it.

... y'know, I can see a secure entry room where the first door closes, the people inside get 'checked over' by security, and then they get let through -- but where one of the checks is a low-power UV laser grid scan of the room.  He may be ruthenium polymered and thermo cloaked into invisibility, but ruthenium can't imitate a laser...

I thought infiltration could be used to get past things like lasers. I beleive they have a picture near the "use infilitration" section of the main book where someone's dodging lasers as they infiltrate into somewhere. <.<
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

ARC

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 480
« Reply #39 on: <10-18-11/1457:34> »
They can "dodge" them.  But they have to know they are there.
Living the Electronic Dream

Zilfer

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1326
« Reply #40 on: <10-18-11/1752:29> »
They can "dodge" them.  But they have to know they are there.

Bring something to spray into every room? xD
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

Phylos Fett

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
  • Kind-of A Freelancer...
« Reply #41 on: <10-18-11/1840:25> »
They can "dodge" them.  But they have to know they are there.

Bring something to spray into every room? xD

Like a skunk? ;)

tzizimine

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 382
  • Yes, I misspelled tzitzimeme...
« Reply #42 on: <10-18-11/2141:58> »
Getting past lasers is more Gymnastics. Likewise, locks are Lockpicking.  And remember, there are security measures that don't rely on Perception to work. For example, every secure facility should have multiple redundant systems for detecting wifi. If he has a commlink for his Smartlink and communications, it doesn't matter that the signal is encrypted. It's just not suppsed to be there at all. Likewise, gas analyzers for CO2 levels, unless the guy doesn 't breathe. Most sensors are not fooled by Infiltration at all, so use them liberally.
"When in doubt, cause trouble. When in trouble, cause doubt."

My Cheat Sheet in pdf

CanRay

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • ***
  • Posts: 11141
  • Spouter of Random Words
« Reply #43 on: <10-18-11/2146:44> »
Internal Air Tanks, not just for when you've got your feet set in concrete and dumped into the Sound any longer!  ;D
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

Tagz

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
« Reply #44 on: <10-18-11/2205:09> »
They can "dodge" them.  But they have to know they are there.
I wouldn't quite say that.  That sets a precedence that the player must know about each and every possible thing that could percieve him/her in order to infiltrate successfully.  That makes stealth unreasonably difficult, as well as somewhat unrealistic.

You don't need to know where a camera is to know that there probably is one and you should keep to the shadows.  You don't need to know where each guard is to know to keep out of open areas and stay low to the ground, etc.  And you don't need to spot a laser trip beam to assume that there might be one.  Of course, knowing helps improve your task, but not knowing doesn't make the player worse at sneaking.  That would be applying a modifier incorrectly (a penalty to player when it should be bonus to observer).

This becomes an extremely important point when you consider astral observers.  If you have the mentality that you must be aware of something to sneak by it, then any mundane automatically fails against an astral observer.  That's somewhat absurd if you ask me, as it renders an entire character concept ineffectual and useless.  The Astral observer should of course receive a good bonus for aura on shadow contrast, and possibly negative background count (low life area such as a city would have a -1 Background Count that becomes a +1 Astral Visibility modifier, check SM for the chart), likely around +3 to +5 dice on average but is very situational.

But something to consider is a perception bonus for superior positioning.  A vantage point over a bottleneck, a camera in a good place, or something like placing a guard at the end of a narrow hallway that gives the guard a superior view of that hallway.  This bonus could be offset by the player making their own perception check to notice the difficulty and plan around it, giving them a similar bonus or taking away the NPC's bonus depending on what they do.

Also, the rules state that some things are just plain obvious and do not require a perception check to be made.  An example could be a camera that watches a door and does not pan.  If the infiltrator tries to use that door they will be seen, it's just impossible to do it without being seen.  I think it's this last situation that ARC was speaking about, I just don't want anyone coming away from this discussion thinking that a infiltrator must know where each and every opposed observer (NPC, sensor, or otherwise) is in order to infiltrate successfully.