[Sichr]

I`ll update my post later, for now, just a word...this thread is crated to propose good examples of dealing with (mostly) magicians, giving some not-so-experienced GMs some tactics, ideas how to deal with PCs and possibly even GRUNT samples to create balanced oposition.

[Operator]

The first and foremost reminder is that GMs should remember the Perception test to notice magic use.

SR4A, p.179

The threshold to notice a spell being cast is (6 - spell's Force). Depending on your mook squad setup, if one of them notices magic, they can (and should) inform their buddies as to which runner is slinging the mojo. "Geek the mage first" still applies in Shadowrun.

One of my own players neglected this fact, as well as forgetting to invest in Counterspelling. One of the opposing Lone Star officers took it upon himself to slam that poor guy with a pair of Stunbolts, Force 5 and Force 7. 

[Shadowstarr]

Since i kinda started this debate in an unrelated forum I guess I'll chime in.   I'm new to GM'ing and 4e rules so GMing so far has been a lot of trail and error on my part.  I feel one of my main problems is setting up the right opposition for the PC's.   My game is using a number of the season 2 missions and I am finding my players are  taking them out in the first round if not first pass of combat.  So I've been altering the opposition to try and compensate.  Adding a decent countermage,  spreading out NPC so that they are not all wiped out by a single area effect spell or grenade. In the first few missions a PC mage was owned the show.   Increase reflexes w/  a sustaining focus give her 3 passes usually and she cast stunball with 15 dice in the spellcasting roll and 14 for drain.  She can throw out force 6 stunballs normally with no drain.   Granted  during this time i was working from the older core rules book and have since went to the 20th ann rule book which helps things out a bit with indirect area spells hits adding to drain.  I've been adding mages to help counterspell the pc's and using more spirit to give them other things to worry on. 

What I need is advice on how to properly challenge the PC's  seems thing are too easy or too hard.  I put them up against a force 6 toxic spirit and they couldn't handle it.  The before mention mage isn't very strong with banishing so shes was better off attacking it directly with spells.  Lucky the PC's were able to take out the mage that summoned the spirit and I had it take off for freedom rather then continuing to fight the PC's. 

I'm planning to use the disrupt focus spell in some future encounters.   I like mages so please don't interpret this is an anti-mage thing.  I just want to run a better game and could use some ideas.

-SS

[Sichr]

When using spirits, it seems to me that most of GMs...and PCs also, think of them as of a combat drone or something like that. IMO spirit powers are described as "inspiration" not as exact statement, and GMs are encouraged to modify them to their own taste. It takes a little prepatration of the scene, and planning of using indirect powers and skills, but f.6 Toxic spirit is more than just melee oponent. With such powers as Desire reflection, used on the whole team, it should be nice to see them fight each other...Im not going to spoill more, I have a PbP on hold where Id like to use this tactics to see the result. Also, in that case, Ive entered scene quite straight, well on the other side, such meeting may be a very dramatic and gameplay with horrorr atmosphere.

Proper challenge also may be built by not revealing whole oposing force at first combat turn, making the scene graduating a bit.

And...to quote kontact, every piece of land in most cities is tainted by background count. This should give game good balance, at least drive for cleansing on the Mage side.

I`ve witnessed a game that was won by mage using just manipulating spells..even on his own teammates. Thats much worse than +4IP.
Lucky for us, GMs, we may use astral signatures for tracking the mage down, using pieces of his victims for ritual spellcasting on him.

Also...not exactly RAW IMO...but in awakened world with talisleggers a lot of people would have some fetichs or something to protect themselves from magic. may or may it not work for mundane, that is up to GM if he wants to create such things providing counterspell or other protection for possible magical threats...

[Zilfer]

When using spirits, it seems to me that most of GMs...and PCs also, think of them as of a combat drone or something like that. IMO spirit powers are described as "inspiration" not as exact statement, and GMs are encouraged to modify them to their own taste. It takes a little prepatration of the scene, and planning of using indirect powers and skills, but f.6 Toxic spirit is more than just melee oponent. With such powers as Desire reflection, used on the whole team, it should be nice to see them fight each other...Im not going to spoill more, I have a PbP on hold where Id like to use this tactics to see the result. Also, in that case, Ive entered scene quite straight, well on the other side, such meeting may be a very dramatic and gameplay with horrorr atmosphere.

Proper challenge also may be built by not revealing whole oposing force at first combat turn, making the scene graduating a bit.

And...to quote kontact, every piece of land in most cities is tainted by background count. This should give game good balance, at least drive for cleansing on the Mage side.

I`ve witnessed a game that was won by mage using just manipulating spells..even on his own teammates. Thats much worse than +4IP.
Lucky for us, GMs, we may use astral signatures for tracking the mage down, using pieces of his victims for ritual spellcasting on him.

Also...not exactly RAW IMO...but in awakened world with talisleggers a lot of people would have some fetichs or something to protect themselves from magic. may or may it not work for mundane, that is up to GM if he wants to create such things providing counterspell or other protection for possible magical threats...

Can you track a spell thta's been casted on something? It seemed from reading the book this was impossible because it only seemed to talk about one's that the mage was currently upholding, or a spirit connected to him.

<.< If a mage casted a lightning ball, or shatter spell and then left. Then someone came investigating the scene from what I read in the book it doesn't seem possible by the "tracking" rules i was reading in the main book. Unless I'm just misunderstanding it. xD

[Sichr]

Read Astral signature ... it lasts for hours equal to force...must be cleansed, otherwise should be assensed by ie KE investigator, who can then give this image almost anytime as a image to Spirit, that is able to Search...

And IMO...if mage kill someone with the spell, he establishes powerfull link that should be used to guide ritual spellcasting...but this is not IMO RAW...like material or sympathetic linkkk

[Zilfer]

Read Astral signature ... it lasts for hours equal to force...must be cleansed, otherwise should be assensed by ie KE investigator, who can then give this image almost anytime as a image to Spirit, that is able to Search...

And IMO...if mage kill someone with the spell, he establishes powerfull link that should be used to guide ritual spellcasting...but this is not IMO RAW...like material or sympathetic linkkk

I see, kind of like in harry potter. XD

And good to know though that doesn't leave much time for an investigator to get it. Doesn't the astral search take like hours per check? Anyways I will most definately read that when i get home.

[CanRay]

You did not just get Harry Potter in my Shadowrun, did you?  *Stern Look*

[Zilfer]

You did not just get Harry Potter in my Shadowrun, did you?  *Stern Look*

Hey I was going to say "Warriors of Virtue" but I REALLY doubt anyone knew that one. So I went with another thing that used a link between killer and Victim.

[Pyromaster13]

I've actually brought this up before with another group of players, but the next time the players are doing a run on corporate property, you can put a single wagemage in what works like a panic room on the property, and he has a periscope web of mirrors that gives him physical line of sight to most of the rooms in the building.  He can freely spellcast against them, and as long as he plugs the periscopes before they cast back, he's going to be a serious problem and they typically abandon the mission.  Helps remind your players that simple obstacles can be a serious problem if your not prepared for it.

Another fun tactic I like to place is when the players start to feel invincible, and they're doing a run on a laboratory of sorts.  Simply install a closed circuit system for the security systems and doors then drop a cyber-tooth Tiger in the midst with a security account access.  Nasty bugger can shut off lights and ambush them constantly while being camouflaged, hard to target, and bring up panic fast.  First introducing a bugger like that usually ends in another abandon mission or even a character death.  I know it's mean and ruthless, but consider that the Johnson payed them alot of Nuyen, most of it upfront, and they think "Hey easy smash and grab", this'll make them think twice about a run.

[Zilfer]

I've actually brought this up before with another group of players, but the next time the players are doing a run on corporate property, you can put a single wagemage in what works like a panic room on the property, and he has a periscope web of mirrors that gives him physical line of sight to most of the rooms in the building.  He can freely spellcast against them, and as long as he plugs the periscopes before they cast back, he's going to be a serious problem and they typically abandon the mission.  Helps remind your players that simple obstacles can be a serious problem if your not prepared for it.

Another fun tactic I like to place is when the players start to feel invincible, and they're doing a run on a laboratory of sorts.  Simply install a closed circuit system for the security systems and doors then drop a cyber-tooth Tiger in the midst with a security account access.  Nasty bugger can shut off lights and ambush them constantly while being camouflaged, hard to target, and bring up panic fast.  First introducing a bugger like that usually ends in another abandon mission or even a character death.  I know it's mean and ruthless, but consider that the Johnson payed them alot of Nuyen, most of it upfront, and they think "Hey easy smash and grab", this'll make them think twice about a run.

To the first one, I'd say Shoot the damn mirrors as you go, and second have someone ready to throw a grenade as you continue through the place. He opens up his "mirror room" and you toss the grenade in.

The second one sounds pretty bad, though if you have ultrasonic vision I don't think it would be the hard or a motion sensor.

[Pyromaster13]

To the first one, I'd say Shoot the damn mirrors as you go, and second have someone ready to throw a grenade as you continue through the place. He opens up his "mirror room" and you toss the grenade in.

The second one sounds pretty bad, though if you have ultrasonic vision I don't think it would be the hard or a motion sensor.

But the "mirror room" as you put it is similar to a panic room, once it's locked down, it's almost like a safe.  And they'd have to succeed on a pretty hard perception roll to even notice the mirrors in the first place, they'd probably be too busy watching the guards and cameras then notice that odd gleam in the very top room corner, and the mage would have a nice first surprise round (What if he's one of those 3IP mages to begin with :O Stunbolt storm anyone?).

As for the second one, most mages wouldn't have a sensor package like that, since they need physical vision for spellcasting, they would have to have spend essence to spellcast through the ultrasound.  More likely they would turn to astral vision to see through the dark, but the smart tiger would retreat after getting hit with only 1 stunbolt (plenty of corners, moving only 1 meter will give him cover and break LOS), then verify the mage as the biggest threat and separate him from the group using the doors or the security system.  He's a predator with a mission, he's not going to just run in and die knowing that there's a human that can see through his only cover (camo and darkness), he'll try to find a way around it.

[Walks Through Walls]

The use of fiberoptic cable for the mage to see anywhere in the installation has been around since 2nd edition and is basically the same thing. You could easily make them go back to a panic room to protect the mage.

[Zilfer]

Oh is this just a pure mage group? If so then maybe, but the mage only needs to buy goggles and slot them with ultrasound vision. <.< I don't know why he would need essence when he can just have any form of AR to help him see that way. At least he'll have a head's up it's about to come around the corner. xD Though you brough up a good point, Astral Perception which he'd be able to see through walls and see it before it's coming anyways.

I was picturing much larger mirrors, I'm guessing your talking small ones down to see into rooms. Though if they are looking for camera's I think they'd also notice a gleam. >.> though on a perception test what would you make that, a 3 or 4 hits? Easily done with a character with perception. (or at least it seems that way in my group right now for the one or two characters that actually have perception)

Anyways definitely good idea's that I'm going to keep in my box of goodies for later.

[Pyromaster13]

Zilfer, you're forgetting that mages can't spellcast through technology.  Just because you're looking at a camera feed of someone in the next room does not allow you to spellcast at them, which is essentially like AR (Gives a holographic feed of what it sees).  The only reason mages can spellcast through cybereyes (which is technological) is because they spent essence for it, which makes it "part of their aura" so to speak.  So in order to spellcast at a target through ultrasound you have to have spent essence for the ultrasound sensor, but if you're only using it from your goggles to see where the person is around the corner is perfectly fine, you just can't stunball him.