[Prodigy]

It depends on the job. The typical going rates for non-high profile contract killings are $25000 on average IRL. That is according to the FBI. $7500 per runner seems reasonable depending on the job. That is $30000 if the team was 4 members. That's pretty good.

Those contract killings are hiring one person to do the job. This makes the mark that people are setting even worse since 7500 is, by your own admission, less than 25% of what a single equivalent individual would be getting today.

Well, a person isn't going to pay more just because you have more people...

That being said, this is a game. As a GM, I tend to cater towards my player's needs. If they are looking for side jobs, they probably are not satisfied with the pay rates. You can either A) explain that new runners aren't going to make big money or B) just ay them more and make it challenging. 

[GiraffeShaman]

To give an example the rigger who has automotive mechanic and an appropriate tool shop making money fixing cars.

The reason to try and get the PCs focused on doing Shadowruns isn't because the game is named that, but because shadowruns are generally more dramatic and exciting. I'm sure there's a fantastic GM out there that can make the day to day running of an auto repair business exciting, but this isn't your typical GM. You may want to consider using their legimate businesses as jumping points for runs. For example, offer the rigger an opportunity to increase his monthly income from the auto repair business by using his shadowrunner team to take out a local competitor.

What constitutes too high of payouts varies by group. The only real hard line is that in the course of the campaign you never want them to get to the point where they have nothing to look forward to and nothing to save for. Which is why it's a good idea to know how much they net each month after expenses and lifestyle. I was a cheap GM who purposely changed to higher payouts after suggestions from  players. The GM has to be the safety valvle on things like too much wealth or too little risk, but there is also a give and take. I'd personally love to play in a lower pay campaign, but I might lose players to other game systems if I impose my preferences too often.

[Mirikon]

It isn't "Monty Haul", or any such crap. It is simply giving the players the resources necessary to advance their characters while maintaining what they had before.

Would you make a D&D fighter sacrifice two levels to upgrade their sword? It's the same thing.

No, it isn't. I'd make the D&D fighter save up the gold until he could purchase the sword, same as anyone else, or send him into some dungeons of incredible peril, where he might find a new sword that he likes better. Because that's what you do in D&D, you go and kill monsters, keep the stuff you like, and sell the rest. If he was too busy spending his gold on wenches and mead, then there really isn't any reason for me to help him out, is there? Choices have consequences.

You either live inside your means, or you find ways to extend your means. Otherwise, you're a step away from playing in god mode, and that's never fun for very long.

[All4BigGuns]

It isn't "Monty Haul", or any such crap. It is simply giving the players the resources necessary to advance their characters while maintaining what they had before.

Would you make a D&D fighter sacrifice two levels to upgrade their sword? It's the same thing.

No, it isn't. I'd make the D&D fighter save up the gold until he could purchase the sword, same as anyone else, or send him into some dungeons of incredible peril, where he might find a new sword that he likes better. Because that's what you do in D&D, you go and kill monsters, keep the stuff you like, and sell the rest. If he was too busy spending his gold on wenches and mead, then there really isn't any reason for me to help him out, is there? Choices have consequences.

You either live inside your means, or you find ways to extend your means. Otherwise, you're a step away from playing in god mode, and that's never fun for very long.

Scraping by isn't fun either. Trust me on that one. If I wanted to "scrape by" I wouldn't game; I would just stick with my real life.

[Mirikon]

I work third shift at a gas station for minimum wage. You want to compare penis sizes next?

And living a Middle lifestyle isn't scraping by. Being a step away from Squatter lifestyle is scraping by. Choices have consequences. You remove the consequences (good or bad) and you unbalance your game quite a bit.

[Reaver]

For my games, the starting rate that runners make is somewhere between $5000-$8000 a run per runner, then modified by the Face's negotiation roll.

IF (and this is a big IF!!) the runners prove that they are capable, they will get a "big job" thrown their way that usually pays $10,000 to $15000 a runner.

As their reps improve, they will get the larger (and harder) missions with larger payouts.


As for Runners trying to make money on the side, there could be a number of reasons why they may be doing this. If they are from a D&D background, they are used to watching the coins stack up (literally!!) Sadly, Shadowrun's Economics can be hard for newer players to get their heads wrapped around.

For example, unless the runners have really good fake SINs (or real SINs), it is almost impossible for them to have "real" jobs, as the SIN is the first requirement to get and have a job (at least legally). Then there is the fact that most manual labour jobs are the lowest paid, especially for unskilled labourers, Even as a mechanic, your rigger would be lucky to be able to charge $20/hour! Not because he is a bad mechanic, but for the simple fact that those who would be coming to him (mostly other SINless) couldn't afford to pay more then that.... if they even owned a vehicle to be worked on!!! (after all, you need a SIN to get a driver's licence, or a back account, or to buy a car, etc, etc, etc).

I would talk to your players are see why they feel they need side jobs. It could be that they are trying to find out what their character's do in their off time, or trying to add personality to their characters. Or they could just feel they need the extra cash cause "they are now 3 runs in and don't have a +2 longsword."

[Michael Chandra]

A comparison: Day Job level 2 and 3 pay ~30 nuyen per hour. A Mechanic costs 100, so 70 goes to the business and helps pay for quiet hours. A mechanic rigger has the advantage he doesn't need to share with a boss, but on the other side he also needs to pay off his investment by himself. A shop costs 5k, +rent each month. Even cheap we're talking the need at 50 nuyen/hour and 10 hours a week just to pay rent and earn back the investment in half a year or so. Mind you, at that point you're still half what a normal mechanic costs and likely score twice as many hits as the normal ones, so basically you're working at a quarter of the cost of a normal mechanic. Charging the same 100 is already fair given how you get the job done faster, even without rushing the job. "So you cost the same, but you get it done in half the time and are willing to pull longer shifts, and keep your mouth shut? Done deal."

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Could someone explain to me what the problem with giving "too much" nuyen per run is?  We play this game for the excitement and the toys.  No matter how much cash you toss their way, they'll spend it.  I doubt they would get to a point where they yell at you for giving them more money than they can find use for.  Hell, even if I was paid millions per run, I could spend it.  I'd finally get that VTOL I wanted, and perhaps an aircraft carrier to store my ICBM stockpile... in case Norway decides to finally invade like I've always suspected(in-game).

[Angelone]

I agree with mtfeeney, can't give a player too much. There's always upgrades in Shadowrun.

With the mechanic shop since some people are so focused on "Realism!", how long do you think it would be before one of the syndicates comes along and starts charging for "protection"? The rigger can't always be there to guard his stuff and since he's being paid so little during runs that he has to run a mechanic shop on the side it probably means he lives there too. Guess what? When he can't pay the syndicate anymore he's going to lose all his nice toys once he's out one night, because he's barely getting by and can't afford a decent security system.

Having a side business is nice as a roleplay hook, but basically forcing the players to get one because they aren't making enough to stay afloat isn't a good thing. By no means am I discouraging players from looking for side jobs or other opportunities to make money, but they shouldn't have to scramble for every last nuyen. 

[Mirikon]

There are Monty Haul style games like that, mtfeeney. It is certainly a style of campaign that has been around for a long time, before Shadowrun even existed. However, that is essentially the same as playing in god mode. Whenever players can simply push the 'made of win' button, and be done, then it cheapens the game. Getting major gear, such as VTOL aircraft, should be the matter of a run or multiple runs, to either steal it, earn the cred to buy it, or to do something big enough that the plane is part of the payment. When players can, on a whim, pick up gear reaching hundreds of thousands of nuyen or more, then there is a problem, unless you're in a long-running campaign, where your players have risen to the level of people like Fastjack, Kane, or the other Jackpointers. In other words, you're street legends.

Part of this is a genre bias, of course. Someone who comes from the Fantasy genre, for instance, may expect to find a +2 sword when they go into that sixth-level dungeon as a matter of course. To them, killing everything that moves, taking their stuff, and selling what you can't use is second nature. Someone from the Superhero genre, where a playboy millionaire who dresses up in costume to fight crime at night isn't that uncommon, might not like the idea of being 'in the trenches', having to make choices about their lifestyle based on whether they want to save up for some new gear.

Cyberpunk, and by extension, Shadowrun, is not like that. The people who can get away with killing everyone and taking their stuff are few. The ones who can stay employed after gaining a reputation for wanton slaughter are even fewer. High rollers in the shadows are uncommon, to say the least. Why would someone who can just sit back and enjoy life without ever needing to actually 'work' engage in activity that is not only incredibly hazardous, but could risk their whole lifestyle if they're caught?

To put it another way, its like playing Super Mario Brothers (the original one), and having a star pop up every few seconds. Sure, it feels badass to get the star and go invincible until the power runs out. But that is because the star is rare, and so it makes you appreciate it more. If you were constantly in 'star mode', then the game would get old, real quick. Or perhaps you could compare it to the latest Tomb Raider game. By the end of the game, you have badass weapons, including a commando rifle with a silencer which you can use to make awesome finishers on your enemies. But the reason it feels so badass is because you earned it, traveling over the map without even a torch to start, gradually gaining new abilities and gear, and learning from countless deaths. Because you earned it, because you worked your ass off to get all those upgrades and skill points, it is special.

[All4BigGuns]

"High rollers" may be uncommon, but the PCs should not be among the "average" among shadowrunners. Those should be relegated strictly to NPCs and the PCs should always be a cut (or three) above.

[Mirikon]

They should be a cut above rookie runners, straight out of the gangs, certainly. But not above average. Not until they prove themselves. That's part of the problem I'm talking about. People want to start off being special. It cheapens things when you start off utter badass, and only move up from there. You start thinking that you gotta have better rewards because you want them, and don't understand why things don't work out that way all the time. Average is average because that's where the vast majority of people in the field are. You want to be exceptional, prove that you are exceptional, and do the work to get your rep up there.

[All4BigGuns]

The PCs are not in the "vast majority". They are special because they are the 'heroes' of the game and should be treated as such.

If I pick up a novel and the protagonist turns out to be a "Joe Average" I'm going to give it away if it's paperback or sell it back to the bookstore if it's hardcover because the book is going to be boring as hell to read. The same thing applies to PCs in games.

[Razhul]

I honestly think there is no right answer to this philosophical question of whether to play a "heroic, high-powered campaign" or a "slow gradual growth from the roots to high power over a long amount of time".

Take Warhammer Fantasy 2nd edition and how gritty and crappy for new characters that was and compare to the new 3rd edition and how powerful and heroic even starter characters are.

It all boils down to the agreement between GM and players on what kind of campaign they want to play.

Me personally, we are getting 20k+ per job currently which is PLENTY. It allows us to think big and sideways in terms of creative problem solving. However, we are also faced with EPIC content like quantumbending doorways to anywhere, destroying fusion reactors in secret underground Shiawase bases, fighting Master Shedim etc. All in all, it's what we like and thus it's high risk - high reward.

[All4BigGuns]

All in all, a good rule of thumb to follow is that if one member of the team gets so little from a run that he could steal a Westwind and sell it for 20% of it's price and get more money, the pay is too low.