[Angelone]

I never liked the Missions pay scale. Unless you do a job every few days you really start hurting for money, especially if you are a nuyen heavy character. 10,000-20,000 per job is a good starting point IMO. Another good way to gauge it would be cover the most expensive players lifestyle costs in one run.

[Mirikon]

And teach them the value of looking for extra revenue streams.

If for any reason it is ever necessary to do this, then pay per run is far too low.

No, Guns. Just no. It is always necessary to educate people about finding extra income. Especially when they come from other systems, like D&D, where killing a boss can net you some shiny new gear, and the city doesn't care where you got it because you killed the evil guys. 7500-10000 is a good level for a group doing 1-2 runs a month. With that, you can fix/replace some gear, and pay for a decent lifestyle. (And if you take the time to use the advanced lifestyle rules, a decent lifestyle is cheaper than you think.) Most (decent) runners would be in Low to Middle lifestyles. Those living the high life are the exception, not the rule. And if you go through tons of gear on a run, either you screwed up royally, or you're a bit too Pink Mohawk for your own good.

[All4BigGuns]

And teach them the value of looking for extra revenue streams.

If for any reason it is ever necessary to do this, then pay per run is far too low.

No, Guns. Just no. It is always necessary to educate people about finding extra income. Especially when they come from other systems, like D&D, where killing a boss can net you some shiny new gear, and the city doesn't care where you got it because you killed the evil guys. 7500-10000 is a good level for a group doing 1-2 runs a month. With that, you can fix/replace some gear, and pay for a decent lifestyle. (And if you take the time to use the advanced lifestyle rules, a decent lifestyle is cheaper than you think.) Most (decent) runners would be in Low to Middle lifestyles. Those living the high life are the exception, not the rule. And if you go through tons of gear on a run, either you screwed up royally, or you're a bit too Pink Mohawk for your own good.

With your suggestion, the best one can hope for is paying for lifestyle and operating expenses like ammo, SINs and the like. It leaves zero room for advancement at a decent rate.

And for those who argue that those advancing primarily by karma won't advance as fast as those who do so primarily by cash, the "Cash for Karma" from SR3 (at a rate of 1000 nuyen for 1 karma point) provides the perfect solution.

[RHat]

With Lifestyle and "operating expenses" combined, 7500 goes very rapidly. At least multiply that by 4 per run and then you'll be at what should be the bare minimum to pay--in order to ensure appropriate advancement for mundane characters.

Disagree with that, Guns. Between 7500 and 10000 is a good measure, if you go by Missions standards. And teach them the value of looking for extra revenue streams. Awesome gunfight with an insect shaman trying to summon a queen? Edit your team's faces/voices out of the mix, and sell the footage to someone who'd love to have the content. Make another thousand or two that way. Day Job is a decent choice, especially when you need some extra nuyen. Hauling the bodies of your enemies (even if they're still breathing) to the organleggers can net you some nuyen, if you have a strong stomach. Selling the 'used' cyberware those guys aren't using anymore (being dead) also gets you some cred. If you have the looks and loose morals, you can always set up a side business as an escort. The list of possibilities goes on.

Those numbers only work if the Karma rewards are about 3-4 per run, which also sounds pretty low to me.  In general, to keep advancement balanced between character types, Karma and nuyen should be awarded in a 1:2500 ratio.

[Mirikon]

If you don't have the nuyen to cover both your lifestyle and advancement, there are two choices open to you: find ways to get more nuyen (whether it is a job, a loan, whatever), and lower your lifestyle a bit. It is all about choices, and the consequences of those choices. I'll admit that when I play a street sammy or otherwise nuyen-intensive character, I rarely get above a Low lifestyle. That's the choice I make in order to keep my gear in order, and save up enough for some replacement ware when I want to upgrade.

[All4BigGuns]

If you don't have the nuyen to cover both your lifestyle and advancement, there are two choices open to you: find ways to get more nuyen (whether it is a job, a loan, whatever), and lower your lifestyle a bit. It is all about choices, and the consequences of those choices. I'll admit that when I play a street sammy or otherwise nuyen-intensive character, I rarely get above a Low lifestyle. That's the choice I make in order to keep my gear in order, and save up enough for some replacement ware when I want to upgrade.

So, to you it's perfectly acceptable to force someone playing a Street Sam to stay at Low (or lower) in lifestyle if they want to advance their character? That is patently absurd and more than worthy of your phone book.

[Shaidar]

There are viable Runner alternate revenue streams that aren't Day Job/Honest Work.

Random paydata in nodes, Ghoul Feed supplier, Rolling Go-Gangers for their rides, Warding the Geriactric Home, or Filling in PymridWatcher on what you've learned about Aztechnology.

Creativity should be rewarded both Karmically and Monetarily.

[Prodigy]

It depends on the job. The typical going rates for non-high profile contract killings are $25000 on average IRL. That is according to the FBI. $7500 per runner seems reasonable depending on the job. That is $30000 if the team was 4 members. That's pretty good.

[All4BigGuns]

It depends on the job. The typical going rates for non-high profile contract killings are $25000 on average IRL. That is according to the FBI. $7500 per runner seems reasonable depending on the job. That is $30000 if the team was 4 members. That's pretty good.

Those contract killings are hiring one person to do the job. This makes the mark that people are setting even worse since 7500 is, by your own admission, less than 25% of what a single equivalent individual would be getting today.

[Mirikon]

It depends on the job. The typical going rates for non-high profile contract killings are $25000 on average IRL. That is according to the FBI. $7500 per runner seems reasonable depending on the job. That is $30000 if the team was 4 members. That's pretty good.

Those contract killings are hiring one person to do the job. This makes the mark that people are setting even worse since 7500 is, by your own admission, less than 25% of what a single equivalent individual would be getting today.

And there's a difference between most shadowruns and outright wetwork, and you darn well know it, Guns. You don't get wetwork rates for low threat/difficulty gigs. Wetwork carries more inherent risk, and therefore more inherent monetary reward.

[All4BigGuns]

The point still stands that setting run payments in such a manner that you're basically saying "stay below this line on lifestyle or you will not be able to advance" is more than worthy of your phone book.

[Mirikon]

You set the pay based on the type and difficulty of the work. If people think they need more nuyen, and have the work history to prove they're ready to move to the next level, then they can start going for the next level. But it completely breaks immersion to believe that someone would be shelling out all that nuyen for a group that is more dysfunctional than a trid drama family. You earn your way to the next level not because you think you deserve to be there, or because you need money, but because you've proven yourself capable of doing the work, and doing it right. Everything else is based on player choices, and the consequences of those choices, which is why you should pay attention to your rep, take time to develop your contacts, and do the grunt work that it takes to step up to the next level.

[All4BigGuns]

No. No. No. You set the pay in such a manner so that the characters can make whatever lifestyle the player wants for them (which will likely be whatever is purchased during creation), cover operating expenses and see advancement at a decent rate.

[Mirikon]

The point still stands that setting run payments in such a manner that you're basically saying "stay below this line on lifestyle or you will not be able to advance" is more than worthy of your phone book.

No, its saying "You can't have your cake and eat it too. Choose wisely." You know, just like how people are in real life. You blow all your money living it up, and suddenly you don't have money for those things you actually need, or you find you can't keep up the payments on your lifestyle. You get to live it big, or you can save your cred for the new shiny you need to upgrade your abilities. It is in the worst Monty Haul tradition to say that you should be able to do both as a matter of course.

No. No. No. You set the pay in such a manner so that the characters can make whatever lifestyle the player wants for them (which will likely be whatever is purchased during creation), cover operating expenses and see advancement at a decent rate.

No, you don't. Greenhorns don't get sent on jobs that are for Big Damn Heroes. Level 1 Sorcerers don't fight the Great Wyrm Red Dragon. The kid who just got his superpowers doesn't take on Galactus. Same here. You prove that you can do the job, and you get better jobs. You show that you're a walking clusterfrag, and you get shit jobs. Shit jobs give you shit pay, higher risks of dying, or both. That's how it is. There's a reason why starting characters (with a few exceptions) start with 0 Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness. They're not Jackpointers. They're not even the cream of ShadowSEA. They are nobodies, until they've proved otherwise. Nobodies don't get to name their terms, and you don't base what jobs they're offered (and thus, what they're paid) based on what the players want, but on what their rep says they can handle.

[All4BigGuns]

It isn't "Monty Haul", or any such crap. It is simply giving the players the resources necessary to advance their characters while maintaining what they had before.

Would you make a D&D fighter sacrifice two levels to upgrade their sword? It's the same thing.