[theclaw]

Hello everyone.

One of my players' shaman know the spell Compell Truth.

All the description (pretty much) looks like fluff to me.

Compel Truth is a spell that forces the target to speak
only the truth as she knows it.
The target can say something
he or she believes to be true, even if it is not.

OK, that part is easy.

The subject may choose not to speak or to withhold information
but cannot directly lie.

Wait..what ??

So he's forced to tell the truth...but choose not to talk or only tell bits and parts.

So what's the point ?

[Hobbes]

Influence or Mind Probe work better.  Compel Truth kinda needs some other Leverage. 

[theclaw]

That was fast

OK so as part of my house ruling I've banned some of those spells, Mind Probe being one. It does not exist in my universe. Just like a few others that are too problematic in imho.

So you're probably right but I can't see a way, besides using actual torture, to make sure that the target will actually speak.

[Jayde Moon]

It's a great tension building, storytelling tool for the GM.

When someone under the influence of the spell refuses to speak, players can often assume the answer as a result (for binary questions, anyway).  As a GM, that's something you can play with.

It can also be a tool for characters to determine whether they need to go that next step of torture, while also guaranteeing that 'responses made under duress' aren't bullshit answers just to mollify you.

[theclaw]

Alright, seems fair enough

[Mirikon]

Oh, there's tons of ways to make someone talk without torture. They're all the same ways you get someone to talk even when you're not using magic. The only thing Compel Truth does is force people to say something true when they speak. Of course, a clever person can say something that is true, but isn't the whole truth, or is something that can be easily misinterpreted by others.

But seriously, look at any cop drama on how they get suspects to talk. Look at any show like Leverage or Oceans Eleven where they con someone into giving up information. Now you just have magic juicing things a bit. Remember, the subject of a Mental Manipulation spell doesn't necessarily know they've been hit with it unless they make the roll to perceive it. You choose your targets well, and maybe juice things a bit by slipping them a bit of eX and having your face be their new best friend while they spill their heart out...

[theclaw]

I think it's different to con someone into giving up info. They give info in a form which is not info to them but is to you. So the spell could be helpful but not clutch.

Also, if you're not drunk and someone asks you for your password, and you start spelling in out when you wanted to spell out f.u.c.k.y.o.u well you know something is wrong and you can stop talking.

But yes, I see your point

[Mirikon]

Most spells like Compel Truth or Mind Probe are in the 'helpful but not clutch' category. It takes a good number of hits on the opposed test to get anything more than surface thoughts from someone with Mind Probe, and if someone knows you're doing it, they tend to get trigger happy. Get a reputation for it, and you're one of those mages who get geeked first, or people seem to always want to talk to you over the Matrix instead of in person, and so on. The mental magics are always best done with some kind of smoke and mirrors to keep people from knowing what is going on, or you give the GM license to fuck your life up.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I like spells like mind probe in many groups as it reduces the odds of torture porn. 

[Tecumseh]

If you're having a problem with Compel Truth and are inclined to ban it, then consider switching the player to Analyze Truth instead.

Analyze Truth affects the caster and/or listener and allows them to evaluate the truthfulness of each statement. It's much more subtle/covert and can be used in non-interrogation situations. The speaker is unlikely to know that the spell is even active.

Compel Truth affects the target and is, consequently, less subtle and more overt. Torture is a potential concern, but in all my years playing I've never had a group go in that direction. There are many other forms of leverage and mental intimidation - like blackmail, or threats about what the decker is going to do to your credit rating - that can encourage someone to speak. Interrogation doesn't have to be physical.

Shinobi Killfist makes an interesting point about how Mind Probe sidesteps the concern about torture porn. (I've always treated it like a serious violation of another person's mind, like Control Thoughts/Actions.) I hadn't considered that before but it's a good argument if your group is a little more bloodthirsty.

[Jack_Spade]

It's just a question of using the spell correctly: You ask them first unaided and then use compell truth to confirm the story. But yeah, control thoughts or mind probe are the more useful spells all in all.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Shinobi Killfist makes an interesting point about how Mind Probe sidesteps the concern about torture porn. (I've always treated it like a serious violation of another person's mind, like Control Thoughts/Actions.) I hadn't considered that before but it's a good argument if your group is a little more bloodthirsty.

Mind probe probably is a serious violation. But very few things runners do to compel someone to talk aren’t. Threatening family, torture, destroying their life via decker, drugs all are serious violations of some sort. I’m not sure mind probe is ethically worse than showing someone live pictures of their child in a rifle scope.

About the only non skeeze way is just getting people to talk on their own in a bar or something.   Niceness points for taking some effort to make sure the randos role in breaching security doesn’t come to light.

It’s possibke that fear of magic would engage the violation in a persons mind though.

[Sphinx]

Analyze Truth lets you know when the target is lying. Compel Truth prevents the target from lying.

Note that Compel Truth is a mental manipulation spell (see SR5, p.292), so targets get to make a new resistance test every turn (Logic plus Willpower minus Force). Even if you cast the spell successfully, a target with high mental stats will shake it off before you finish asking your first question, unless you cast it at a really high Force. If you're playing Missions, targets won't have the Force penalty to their ongoing resistance tests (see Missions FAQ, p.32), making the spell next to useless.