Shadowrun General > General Discussion

Im really struggling as a newb with SR6

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Gmanjkd:
Hello, Im still very new to SR, with SR6 being my 1st dive into the game.  Everyone in the community has been very helpful
 and welcoming.  Thank you for that, you all have been great.  BUT as far as SR6 is concerned im REALLY STRUGGLING to like it.
  So far i have purchased more tha I have red but i have read the starter set, core book, Cutting black, 30 nights, Slip Streams,
Freeing Seattle, Assassins Night, Kechibi Code, and the Neo Anarchist Street-Pedia.  The more I read....the less i like the game.
 I like the streamlined skill list, I like the action economy, i like the Decking, I like the art. 

Im really having a difficult time with the books/fiction and TONE.
 When i look at the SR art and what is presented to the new player/purchaser I see Bladerunner + Magic
BUT the fiction and sourcebooks really feel like what im getting is more D&D + Guns. 
Its not gritty cyberpunk genre but more high fantasy Captain Planet...

As a new player/gm it feels like the books have been mislabeled. 
 EXAMPLE - 30 nights and Assassins Night are Labeled "Campaign Books".  hmmm,  Campaigns are a group of linked adventures. 
Adventures are a defined scenario  with scenes, timelines, a plot, characters, enemies "Maps" if the location warrants one etc.
 Campaigns are Harlequin, Brainscan, Horror on the Orient Express, The Enemy Within.   
In order for 30 Nights to qualify as a Campaign it must 1st have adventures.... I dont see that it has "defined" adventures
and therefore cant qualify as a campaign book... As a newb to SR when i see Campaign Book listed on the cover
 Im expecting a "Campaign" as outlined above.....How would I as a newb expect anything else.
 I propose that SR Campaign Books would be better served with the Title Changed to Plot Sourcebook as they do in
fact have Plot Seeds in abundance and are also a Sourcebook.  They would EXCEL at being Plot Sourcebooks and newbs would have
a much better understanding of what they are investing their time and money into,

Which brings me to Plot Sourcebooks...I think these would be better titled as Immersive Fiction...
they are often a fun read (looking at you Cutting Black) but as a newb i dont find them useful as a play aide.

So....who is SR6 for?   As a newb, even after reading all of these books im constantly lost with what is going on in the world. Instead of presenting a baseline of a setting and then expanding off of that opposite has been true. None of the books stay in the same location long enough for a newb to get their base...their foundation.
  SO MANY acronyms with no apparent reference as to what they mean.
 Tons of references to old plotlines stretching multiple editions and NPCs that have comic book level depth and history....IM LOST.
 Reading more and more of the books is answering few questions and only presenting new questions.   

The fiction suggests that SR6 is written for long term fans BUT it appears that the long term fans are less excited about
the new edition. In addition the TONE is so different from what my research of  older editions would suggest that I can
understand why people often state that SR6 is more about magic and less about Machine/cypberpunk/Bladerunner.

 I can see how that would create a bipolar identity in SR6's tone.
 Presentation and Genre suggest Bladerunner + Magic but execution is D&D/High Fantasy + Guns.

The mechanics also appear to be bipolar.  Streamlined mechanics for newbs.  Great!.  Action economy?  CHECK
Initiative?  Check. Decking?  BIG CHECK! :)   Rigging????  I have not used these rules but they seam odd and different than the
other rules...how about EDGE?  The more I dig into EDGE i really really dislike it.  To be fair i dislike mechanics in ANY
game that involve tracking and spending a fluctuating resource.  Im looking at you Advantage in WFRP 4e.  Expendable resources like this are a time consuming
mechanic that constantly slows down the game with overcomplicated choices. Not choice in character build but a giant menu
to be utilized in the middle of the part of the game that should be the most exciting and fast paced (CONFLICT) . When you present players OF ANY GAME
a tone of options like a menu it creates indecisiveness and decision paralysis. Add this to the already extensive list of minor and
Major actions and just WOW.  Please keep in mind im not complaining about the Minor and Major actions as they appear to be vital
to the SR experience.

So in summary who is SR6 for?  The lore suggests long term players as it is too deep for newbs but also does not retain the
tone of prior editions...The Book labels are very obtuse and are not at all what I would expect to get when purchasing books.
I assume long term players are used to these title types but again im a newb. 
The mechanics have been streamlined (skill list, action economy, initiative, Decking clearly for the newb and that is appreciated)
but EDGE is so cumbersome, not fun, clunky and time consuming filled with to many options that create decision paralysis
and slow down the game (not even considering the additional options listed in Firing Squad and Double Clutch)
 I have 11 books for SR6 and for me the only one that has been useful (read FANTASTIC) is the Neo Anarchist Street Pedia....
its almost required reading to even begin to understand the other books.

I hope I dont come across as harsh as I dont mean to. Im just really struggling as a newb with SR6.  I keep thinking that if i
just read more books then something will click and ill get it....but the opposite appears to be true.  The more time and money I
spend just makes it worse.

Thanks so much for letting me rabble.  Its good to get your thoughts out sometimes so that you can better understand your own thoughts.

I invite any corrections to my above thoughts.
Thanks all, this community has been great and I appreciate your incites and experience.

Michael Chandra:
I have never let the art or fictions impact my games. Some people argue content is too black trenchcoat, some argue content is too pink mohawk. You still got all the space you need to do whatever you want. You can do a campaign in 30 Nights just fine, but you're hyperfocusing on your own interpretations on how the game is supposed to be, and digging into that. You complain Edge is a trackable spendable resource, while not focusing on how it means you're not tracking constant modifiers instead. You get stuck on your Edge options, but most don't matter. So it really sounds to be as if you're your own worst enemy here, stuck with a specific way of how you want things to go, and digging in and only making things worse for yourself.

If you go in with the interpretation of 'this MUST have fixed campaign adventures that follow criteria X', and not do your research first on how they decided to structure the thing, then you're only going to get disappointed. If you go in knowing that 30 Nights is quick explanations without super details, you don't get disappointed from the very first sight. I know people who knew what 30 Nights was like, got it, used about a third of it in their campaign, and had a blast.

Honestly, I think your biggest problem is that apparently Sixth Edition simply isn't for you. Because it has deliberately loosened up a lot of things, leaving a lot of leeway to the GM, while you want a fixed format. With a rulebook that repeatedly says 'details are up to the GM', and 'these are guidelines, do whatever fits your campaign best', if that's not what you want then it was never the right edition for you.

As for your opinions on Edge, I must admit that in all the demo games, short campaigns, and playtests I have played and GMd, choice paralysis on Edge was never an obstruction. And with newbies that were lost on the actions, I simply went 'these are some of the most useful options for you' and they learned real quick.

MercilessMing:
I'm sorry you're having such a tough time with it.  Regarding the tone, yeah that's all fair.  Catalyst aren't regarded as the most talented developers this game has had.  Shadowrun isn't even the game they spend the most development money and effort on.  The line developer Jason Hardy is the only Catalyst employee that works on the game afaik.  Everyone else are freelancers and volunteers.  So IMO they have problems that start at the top.  With the caveat that I'm an outsider just spitballing.  My criticism of the adventures this edition is that the job framework has been used as a flimsy excuse to get the team onto the plot track where the real story can advance instead of being more integrated into the story.  Johnsons come and go, there's never an issue at payout time, the motives of those involved rarely matter, etc.


Who is SR 6 for?  Well it is definitely aimed at me, someone who played 20 years ago and looking to play again.  I didn't need a strong introduction to the world and game concepts, and this edition definitely doesn't have those.  I was also looking for something near the complexity of D&D5, which SR6 tries to do (doesn't get there unfortunately).  But it's more digestible than 5th and now that I'm accustomed to 6th, I look at 5th edition rules and just think whyyyyy are there so many needlessly fiddly rules?

When it comes to the evolving world plot, thankfully I mostly ignore that stuff.  I skim the highlights of the world news, and when it comes to books like Slip Streams with those NPCs with comic book level history, I read it through the lens of "do I want this in my game or not" and if the answer is no, they may as well not exist. 
My table's favorite run I ever GM'd for them in the last couple years wasn't anything published, it didn't have any NPCs from the books, it was just a corp executive looking for his missing daughter that I made up, it has a good twist, hard choices that not everyone will agree on, and a good wow moment.  Point being that it's not uncommon for tables to go their own way and just use the published stuff as inspiration.  If you want Bladerunner + magic, find people that will treat the game that way.

Gmanjkd:
Thanks for replying Michael, 

I appreciate your taking the time to read my post.

I agree that I may and probably am my own worst enemy where this is considered.  I have a strongly defined view of what appeals to me about Shadowrun.  Bladerunner + Magic sounds amazing.  D&D+Guns sounds abysmal.  Nothing is going to change what you or I find appealing about a game.  If you expecting to play Battletech and sit down at my table and I put My Little Pony on the table you are probably going to be confused and disappointed.

With that said I am going to push back a bit.  I assume you did not mean for your comments to come across condescending so I will give you the benefit of the doubt as its very difficult to convey tone via text.

As far as my interpretation of the "Campaign Books" there is a 40+ year legacy of what has already been established as a
"Campaign" when a product says on the cover it is a "Campaign" it is using that label to convey what it is as a product. Thats the point of the advertised label.   It would be fair to say that anyone with prior rpg experience that is not SR would expect something different than what is contained within the campaign books.  Even SR has prior examples of Campaigns meeting the standard definition of campaigns.  Since you are clearly experienced in the SR world i can see that you would expect exactly what was included in the "campaign" books but from the outside coming in for the first time its a culture shock to say the least.

In regard to "not do your research first on how they decided to structure the thing" I have purchased and read 11 SR6 books in less than 5 weeks.  How much more research would you  recommend that I do before i understand what I am buying?  Where would you recommend that I do my research so that I am better informed before i spend additional money or time reading SR6 books?  Where would I have found that the "Campaign" books for SR6 are a list of plot points and not traditional campaigns as presented in most other games going back to 1974?   Again...the established lexicon of "Campaign" across 40 years and countless rpgs would be at odds with the structure that SR6 presents its "campaigns"

In regard to loosening up things for the GM leaving a lot of leeway to the GM... I would say that my primary experience in RPG's as a GM are AD&D, Call of Cthulhu 5th and 7th edition and WFRP 1,2,3 and 4th ed.   AD&D and COC explicitly require the DM/GM/Keeper to shoot from the hip and make things up on the fly.  Im afraid that I misrepresented myself putting you in a position that you misinterpreted my expectations.  I would not say that I am looking for a fixed format but a strong foundation to build off of.  I have yet to see that in SR6.  If I am wrong please point me in the right direction.

In regard to Edge...I have not used it a lot in real world games.  I did not mean to hit a HOT button with this inclusion in my prior post.  If you contributed to the creation of Edge then im sure its fantastic with experience.  Perhaps with experience I will grow to love it and it will be great.  Perhaps this will be the 1st game in my history that has successfully created a menu of items to spend a fluctuating resource on and do it smoothly.  I certainly hope so.

Gmanjkd:
@MercilessMing  Thanks for your reply.  That is very helpful.  I think what im going to have to do is take a step back....Im getting a bit saucy on this subject after spending so much TIME and $$ on these books over the last 5 weeks.  I think im going to have to take a step back..... Wait for a Seattle Sourcebook so that I can get a strong foundation to start from and then write my own material for the players after that.

It has to be rough if Jason is doing this predominantly by himself.  If thats the case then I wouldn't want to write full length adventures either...I would probably focus more on plot points instead as well. 

Are there any books beyond the Street Pedia that you would recommend that I could read to get a strong foundation for the Shadowrun Setting?   There is just SOOOO MUCH information spread all across the world.

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