[PatrolDeer]

because they didn't have the rules in front of them to reference, it seemed to me

For example one of the things that they touched upon in that video was the fact that their combat character (Havoc?) could have assaulted a facility wearing just a bikini and mechanically it works just as well as wearing armor, and they weren't wrong. When I first read the official posts talking about mechanics, and some posters calling out problems, I thought it was just the standard edition change jitters. I was wrong.

In my country we have a saying which goes: "You can't teach an old horse new tricks"

As new GM which never had any experiences with previous editions, I really like this system. As a person who also works in an industry which is heavily depending on new product development. I absolutely understand what is happening and I am calm with my CRB, even if it is missing things or it's unclear. 20 fraggin bucks.

I watch that video and I observed a couple of things. The GM was in my opinion biased and  influenced players which otherwise seemed moderate with their critique. I am so glad that I found videos and podcasts from Shadowcasters network.

Overall, it reminds me "resistance to change". They mentioned themselves that they played circa 300 session of 4th and 5th and they promised themselves that they won't ever playe Shadowrun again. So do they hate on 6th or they hate on Shadowrun in general?

Resistance to change seems quite common among players coming from previous editions and I understand, but everything is a trade-off. If CGL decided that 5e is too complicated to attract new players ( Me and my group is the case) and they cut off a lot of mechanics which were accumulating through out years of new editions, they faced a decision - or we will get new players and piss off old players, or we will keep old players happy and won't attract new players.

Thanks to amazing support from the errata and demo team around this forum as well as active members, I was able to grasp the underlying concepts and I can't wait to play 6E with my group.

Finally, I would like to give you, Singularity,  big big props on how well you orchestrated your players and your group learning process to get into the new system. I, for certain took inspiration from you and will use this for my group as well. I would like to tell you that I feel that you shouldn't give up on the system. Take some rest, wait for new erratas to go on-line a re-visit it.

EDIT: reduced rant and passive aggression

[Iron Serpent Prince]

...forced myself to watch that video... ...GM is a prime toxic shaman... ...toxic... ...toxicity... ...Hate... ...hate...

...pure hate... ...toxic players...
...hate... ...hate...

Woah there buddy.  You seem firmly rooted in the Dark Side yourself.

While you're swinging your righteous paint brush around so widely, you might want to look in the mirror when you are Detecting Evil so that you can see how strong your own aura is.

Like, dislike, love, and hate are all perfectly valid opinions of Sixth World - or anything for that matter.  And contrary to popular opinion, hate is not automatically H8te! and toxic.

[PatrolDeer]

...forced myself to watch that video... ...GM is a prime toxic shaman... ...toxic... ...toxicity... ...Hate... ...hate...

...pure hate... ...toxic players...
...hate... ...hate...

Woah there buddy.  You seem firmly rooted in the Dark Side yourself.

While you're swinging your righteous paint brush around so widely, you might want to look in the mirror when you are Detecting Evil so that you can see how strong your own aura is.

Like, dislike, love, and hate are all perfectly valid opinions of Sixth World - or anything for that matter.  And contrary to popular opinion, hate is not automatically H8te! and toxic.

Thanks for picking out 4 words out of the whole context.
My point was that very little constructive criticism was made by authors of that video and the underlying message was - This is bad, we didn't like Shadowrun 5e and now we don't like Shadowrun 6e.

I went on a rant, you are right, but it was a righteous rant to defend Shadowrun and a disappointed rant, that instead of looking for positives, people just go nuts with how they don't like this and that. If you followed that video, they gave some minor praise of, we like the skill tree, the combat was okay and smooth. From there on, they went on a full killing spree of how things are bad and offered very little to balance the scale, or explain to the new viewer what is going on. A new player in my group posted that video and he seemed discouraged by it. If you have audience which follows you and you might be a role model for people who want to pick up that game, you should be objective. That group was totally biased and even if some members were moderate, the GM went on and on and on about how bad it is.

Finally, you have a point that I should adjust my language in future posts and be more clear. I took it quite personally, as I really like this system and I don't see it inherently flawed. Again I will repeat that thanks to awesome people around I got some valuable insights on rules I didn't understand.

[adzling]

If you followed that video, they gave some minor praise of, we like the skill tree, the combat was okay and smooth. From there on, they went on a full killing spree of how things are bad and offered very little to balance the scale, or explain to the new viewer what is going on. A new player in my group posted that video and he seemed discouraged by it. If you have audience which follows you and you might be a role model for people who want to pick up that game, you should be objective. That group was totally biased and even if some members were moderate, the GM went on and on and on about how bad it is.

you know they *might* hold those opinions because they have spent a lot of time playing shadowrun and after attempting playing the new 6e edition they determined they don't like it for all the reasons they state.

could 6e really be as bad as they said it is?

yes, yes it could.

could players who have been playing shadowrun for a long while be able to more accurately assess it's many, many shortcomings compared to someone coming to it without any experience or knowledge?

yes, yes they could.

[Lormyr]

you know they *might* hold those opinions because they have spent a lot of time playing shadowrun and after attempting playing the new 6e edition they determined they don't like it for all the reasons they state.

could 6e really be as bad as they said it is?

yes, yes it could.

could players who have been playing shadowrun for a long while be able to more accurately assess it's many, many shortcomings compared to someone coming to it without any experience or knowledge?

yes, yes they could.

This.

But that said, to Patroldeer's defense, there is nothing wrong with liking the new system dude. If it works for you and/or your group, by all means, run with it for as long as that remains the case.

I do not believe that the roll4it group was particularly constructive with their criticism (in the sense that while they explained what they did not like and why they did not offer as many suggestions for improvement), but their evaluation was still quite fair and rather far from toxic imo.

[Singularity]

...
Finally, I would like to give you, Singularity,  big big props on how well you orchestrated your players and your group learning process to get into the new system. I, for certain took inspiration from you and will use this for my group as well. I would like to tell you that I feel that you shouldn't give up on the system. Take some rest, wait for new erratas to go on-line a re-visit it.

I think you are misunderstanding my comment regarding combat, and for the record I do understand real combat quite well, thank you. It wasn't about hitting, protection, or anything else; rather it was about the fact that with the new system all armor does is maybe give a point of edge, and there are so many other ways to get edge that a point from armor is largely irrelevant, hence you can wear whatever you want and it doesn't really matter. With the edge gain limit (which I personally think all tables need to house-rule away or at least modify) most characters should easily hit the cap without even considering armor.

I have the PDF of the main rulebook from Drivethrurpg, so I'll be able to keep tabs on updates but frankly I don't see the changes being made in the future that my group would want to bring us back to the system (and quite frankly Catalyst shouldn't be trying to cater to us anyway; they made the system they have now, so they should focus on doing what they can to smooth it out). With all the books and fiction I've read since joining here to try and catch up on the lore, I absolutely do love the setting of Shadowrun. With that in mind I've been picking up the books for a previous edition that was liked by some of the players in my group and we're going to run that instead. I still plan on picking up the sourcebook and campaign that is slated for release, as even if we don't use the 6th Edition itself I do have a campaign idea that can still use the frame of those books.

[Singularity]

... that instead of looking for positives, people just go nuts with how they don't like this and that. If you followed that video, they gave some minor praise of, we like the skill tree, the combat was okay and smooth. From there on, they went on a full killing spree of how things are bad and offered very little to balance the scale, or explain to the new viewer what is going on. A new player in my group posted that video and he seemed discouraged by it. If you have audience which follows you and you might be a role model for people who want to pick up that game, you should be objective. That group was totally biased and even if some members were moderate, the GM went on and on and on about how bad it is.

There are positives to the new system to be sure; for example I liked that the new priority table allows you to select the race you want to play at any priority (I'm a huge fan of allowing players to play want they want without penalizing them severely or locking choices away because they would be terrible). I have to disagree with you on them being biased however; they had serious issues with the system from the prologue episodes, and it continued on. Their 6E videos were to showcase the new system via their campaign, and as they have stated they didn't feel right about continuing on because they had been trying to fix the problems and what they were playing was becoming a hybridization of the new system with the previous system. There is nothing wrong with liking the new system. There is also nothing wrong with not liking the new system and going to do something else.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

I went on a rant, you are right, but it was a righteous rant to defend Shadowrun and a disappointed rant, that instead of looking for positives, people just go nuts with how they don't like this and that. If you followed that video, they gave some minor praise of, we like the skill tree, the combat was okay and smooth. From there on, they went on a full killing spree of how things are bad and offered very little to balance the scale, or explain to the new viewer what is going on.

And why should Roll4It look for positives just to satisfy you?

For that matter, why should they try balancing the scale when presenting their audience with the reasons for why their show is ending?  There is also the chance that the linked video was intended as a report to CGL, after a fashion, however if Roll4It got the 6th Core Book early I would think they have more direct ways of letting Catalyst know their feelings on the system.

Look, you like Sixth World.  That is cool.  Enjoy it.
You don't like, some might say hate. the Roll4It video.  That is cool too.  You don't have to like it, or even agree with it.
The problem is when you are judging (and unfairly I might add) the people of the video and not just their opinion - all based on a misconception of what the video is presented as - you are crossing the line.

[adzling]

But that said, to Patroldeer's defense, there is nothing wrong with liking the new system dude. If it works for you and/or your group, by all means, run with it for as long as that remains the case.

yes, you're 100% correct lormyr.

on a separate note: sorry i'm really trying to quit this forum

[Michael Chandra]

There is nothing wrong with liking the new system. There is also nothing wrong with not liking the new system and going to do something else.

That is absolutely correct. It's only when acts out of like or dislike go too far, that things become a problem. As such, I really like the way you expressed your dislike, even though of course I always consider it a shame if someone doesn't like the new edition. And I hope that once they resolve the quality problems with 6w and there are some new adventures out, maybe in the future y'all give it another shot and end up liking it. But if it remains not your thing, or you end up not giving it a new shot, then that too is fine and I wish y'all the best.

[Singularity]

That is absolutely correct. It's only when acts out of like or dislike go too far, that things become a problem. As such, I really like the way you expressed your dislike, even though of course I always consider it a shame if someone doesn't like the new edition. And I hope that once they resolve the quality problems with 6w and there are some new adventures out, maybe in the future y'all give it another shot and end up liking it. But if it remains not your thing, or you end up not giving it a new shot, then that too is fine and I wish y'all the best.

To be clear: I am not giving up on Shadowrun entirely, so it's not like I'm completely walking away from it. With all of the reading I have done, I've fallen in love with the setting. I do have a lot of lore/fiction to catch up on still (so, soooo much lore and fiction! >.< ), and I'm actually excited to have an opportunity to play those old campaigns that I heard so much about. I will also still be popping around in here, especially the lore archives as I start running games. We may very well give 6th another shot in the future as well, or we may not; I don't foresee many of the issues my group had changing too much. Still, I'll be stomping around in the Shadowrun universe for some time to come, one way or another! 

[Michael Chandra]

I did notice while playing against Beginner Box enemies that DR of players has little impact, perhaps a few new adventures will give a better impression. I am eagerly awaiting 30 Nights, though you probably can manage that quite well in SR5 instead. A year from now I will have forgotten too many SR5 rules to help rulewise, but will still eagerly see you around in Lore and GM topics!

[Singularity]

Actually, we've settled on 3rd edition collectively as a group. I can still find decent deals for the books on eBay and Amazon, so I've started ordering those. I will also be picking up the two bug books for 6th; initially for the lore and ideas in them, but if my group should change its mind on 6th I think I have a neat way to transition from 3rd to 6th for the players.

[Lormyr]

On a separate note: sorry i'm really trying to quit this forum

I think you should stop trying to quit and continue voicing your opinion, but that is just one bro's opinion!

[PatrolDeer]

I think you are misunderstanding my comment regarding combat, and for the record I do understand real combat quite well, thank you.

By no means I mean to insult you, or aim that comment specifically against you as a person. I have red the comment again and deleted that particular section, as it it was a rant due to accumulated frustration with overall negative views of 6e. I apologise. 

And why should Roll4It look for positives just to satisfy you?

For that matter, why should they try balancing the scale when presenting their audience with the reasons for why their show is ending? 

The problem is when you are judging (and unfairly I might add) the people of the video and not just their opinion - all based on a misconception of what the video is presented as - you are crossing the line.

My perspective is that if someone played 400 games of previous editions and than played maybe 10 games of a new edition, which (from my reading around this forum) is vastly different, acknowledge the fact before yourself and your audience that you might be biased and might not grasped the designers intention. From what I saw and heard, that was not the case.

Second, having a strong voice and critique is absolutely fine. But I felt that the GM also crossed the line as he was creating overall negative atmosphere and that (again from my perspective) brought members of the group along, which prevented constructive critique. The comment section below can demonstrate how the overall tone of the video easily spread the same bias towards its viewers, which is not what I would expect from experienced GM. If I am not mistaken, that video has over 12000 views. So 1200 people got the message that 6E is terrible and possibly won't even try for themselves.

Therefore I voiced my opinion against such attitude, but I do agree that my previous reaction was over the top and was a result of accumulated frustration. I apologise for the excessive language, I did edit my initial post.
If I insulted anyone, I apologise.