Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Thefurmonger on <01-13-15/0615:48>
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Hey all,
So quick question.
My character recently bought a underbarrel grenade launcher (run&gun) but I had a few questions.
Do they use normal grenades? minis?
what is the range? (i could not find a "stat" line for the weapon mod, tho I may just be blind)
does it only hold 1 at a time? (i assume, but you never know...)
Thanks all, I'm sure I'm just missing something here :)
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Last time I checked, all launchers use minis.
Range table is on page 476 of the core book, use the range for standard GL, I'm sure it will be wiz.
No idea about capacity though. The integrated launchers in Ares Alpha and AK-98 both have capacity of 6 (clip and internal magazine, respectively). So it could very well be anything up to and including six.
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Thanks for the info, you would think the capacity would be listed somewhere..
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Yeah, "Run & Gun" has a LOT of such oversights - the organization and missing details are simply maddening. Not to mention all the goodies from "Arsenal" that suddenly disappeared.
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The SR4A Underbarrel Grenadelauncher (Ares Antioch ) has a capacity of 8 avail 8F ,costs 800 ¥ and the range for underbarrel GL has always beeen the same as a GL ( 5-50/100/150/500 )
Hough!
Medicineman
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The Ares Antioch isn't an Underbarrel Grenade Launcher. It's a 'classic grenade launcher design', costs 600¥, 8 (m) for ammo. The only 'classic' grenade launcher design I could see them referring to is a style like the MGL-32: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/M-32_Grenade_Launcher.jpg
Basically, a revolver on steroids.
Honestly, an underbarrel grenade launcher holding that much ammo is a little crazy; even 'micro-grenades' need a good bit of space if you want them to have any appreciable effect. There's also the matter of the firing mechanism/ammo feed. It's why the M203 is a single-shot breech-loader. Weight, balance, etc. all get affected. I'd expect the Ares Alpha model to be some kind of proprietary thing, with others having lower capacities.
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Honestly, an underbarrel grenade launcher holding that much ammo is a little crazy; even 'micro-grenades' need a good bit of space if you want them to have any appreciable effect. There's also the matter of the firing mechanism/ammo feed. It's why the M203 is a single-shot breech-loader. Weight, balance, etc. all get affected. I'd expect the Ares Alpha model to be some kind of proprietary thing, with others having lower capacities.
Gotta agree with MijRai. Have you seen AK-98's pic in "Run & Gun"? Where, exactly, is that internal magazine? In the stock?
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@ MijRai
I'm quite certain that the Underbarrel GL uses the same rules like the Antioch
and Yes 8 Minigrenades is a Ludicrous amount but thats the official Rules as I know them (just look at the Ares Alpha Combatgun ;) )
I'd houserule it and tone it down to 4 or 5 maximum (I still remember from SR3 an Urban series SMG with a underbarrell Grenny with 8 Micro grenades ( made by Fanpro IIRC) thats even more ludicrous ImO ;) )
Gotta agree with MijRai. Have you seen AK-98's pic in "Run & Gun"? Where, exactly, is that internal magazine? In the stock?
Ohhh Yeah , ;D ::) that one too
The Izom Aphrodite (from 4the ed ) with its 1 shot GL is quite ok though
with an underbelly Dance
Medicineman
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FYI, the MGL-32 & M-302 use 40mm non-mini-grenades, while 20mm mini-grenades are similar diameter to a 12 gauge shotgun shell.
(http://images1.opticsplanet.com/365-240-ffffff/opplanet-gg-g-ggg-1324-40mm-grenade-toothpick-holder-gold.jpg)
40mm grenade
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/oicw-002.jpg)
20mm grenade
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Ok, question so if the GL is attached to an automatic, does it use the automatic skill or another skill entirely?
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Ok, question so if the GL is attached to an automatic, does it use the automatic skill or another skill entirely?
Underbarrel Grenade Launcher uses the Heavy Weapons skill.
Use the Heavy Weapons skill when firing assault cannons and grenade and missile launchers.
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An explosive magazine only reduces your capacity by 2 and you get half the effect of a grenade. Double the space requirements and you have a very rough estimation of grenades per bullet in a magazine at 4 to 1. Assume a smaller mag size since it is an underbarrel design, maybe 16 normal rounds. At 4 to 1 we have a 4 mini grenade capacity. Ares alpha has 6, which is 50% off my estimation. I'd call that close enough.
All that said, I don't feel like a 6 shot grenade launcher is needed or even wanted. Breach loading has the benefit of allowing you to swap in the round you need. About to breach? Pop in a flash bang or gas grenade. Pinned down under cover by suppressive fire? Slot in a frag grenade to return fire.
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It may be overkill, but I like the underbarrel GL on sniper rifles and auto-shotguns. Non-lethal gas, like neural x, or pepper, makes for a great tactical crowd control tool; And high-explosive make for a perfect deterrent to following vehicles.
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A six-shot grenade launcher is useful in some situations, Zombie. I had a 'noncombat' 'runner who loaded up plenty of gas, stun and smoke grenades; he'd hose down areas with 'safe' grenades while his buddies did the precision work.
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Ares Alpha + Mounted Crossbow + Underbarrel Laser Shotgun = Yes?
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You forgot the chainsaw, falar.
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I think Chainsaw breaks the number of slots an Ares Alpha has ...
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An underbarrel-weapon under an underbarrel weapon?
No.
Just no.
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An underbarrel-weapon under an underbarrel weapon?
No.
Just no.
The real question is, does the under barrel weapon of the under barrel weapon get an under barrel weapon?
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Ares Alpha + Mounted Crossbow + Underbarrel Laser Shotgun = Yes?
No. Ares Alpha + Underbarrel shotgun = Yes, though.
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what I really wanna know is can I attach an underbarrel grenade launcher on my grenade launcher
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what I really wanna know is can I attach an underbarrel grenade launcher on my grenade launcher
one Yes
multiple No
Hough
Medicineman
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So a single-shot grenade launcher with an Underbarrel grenade launcher could be considered a double-barrel grenade launcher...
Anyone want to go bird hunting?
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So a single-shot grenade launcher with an Underbarrel grenade launcher could be considered a double-barrel grenade launcher...
Anyone want to go bird hunting?
What kind of birds are you hunting, that it takes TWO grenade launchers to take down!? :o
To answer your question: No, I do not.
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dragons
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I do not bring grenades to a dragon-hunt, thank-you-very-much. You need heavier payloads than that.
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I do not bring grenades to a dragon-hunt, thank-you-very-much. You need heavier payloads than that.
Tac nukes? ;D
Although the question still remains, what kind of burd needs a double grenade launcher to take down? ???
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Although the question still remains, what kind of burd needs a double grenade launcher to take down? ???
Pterodactyls?
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So a single-shot grenade launcher with an Underbarrel grenade launcher could be considered a double-barrel grenade launcher...
Anyone want to go bird hunting?
What kind of birds are you hunting, that it takes TWO grenade launchers to take down!? :o
To answer your question: No, I do not.
You'll have more options in the near-ish future.
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A list?
Aerial Lionheads, Anwuma Bavole, Gargoyles, Griffins, Harpies, Heliodromus, Pegasus, Rocs, Sirens, Thunderbirds, Wyverns... There's probably more, but that is a good start. The best part about grenades are the non-lethal options.
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A list?
Aerial Lionheads, Anwuma Bavole, Gargoyles, Griffins, Harpies, Heliodromus, Pegasus, Rocs, Sirens, Thunderbirds, Wyverns... There's probably more, but that is a good start. The best part about grenades are the non-lethal options.
You said bird hunting. Bird. To quote someone "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." :P
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At least 7 of those are feathered! Close enough!
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At least 7 of those are feathered! Close enough!
So is a species of dragon, so I guess that's fair game too? Still, if you want to go for it let me know! My rigger could use the nuyen from selling the video to the 6th world's trid verion of "Don't try this at home!" ;D
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None of them are sapient, though. Big difference.
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What damage would a direct hit from a gas grenade (or a grenade that doesn't go off) do? My Company Man has a HKX30 and I was thinking to load it up with gas grenades but set the timer to a second after impact. Knock people back sort of thing or bounce it off people's head
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What damage would a direct hit from a gas grenade (or a grenade that doesn't go off) do? My Company Man has a HKX30 and I was thinking to load it up with gas grenades but set the timer to a second after impact. Knock people back sort of thing or bounce it off people's head
Not even sure you can... Grenades like all AoEs are location targeted rather than targeting a person.
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Sure, they're AoEs, but those grenades travel fast enough to hit people and hurt. Hell, I'd give stats to normal grenade damage too; whenever a person throws grenades in my non-Shadowrun game, a very good hit tends to have me apply extra damage since they just hit the guy with a 2 pound ball of metal.
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6S in general, or depending on proximity to launcher if you want to make it complicated; at least, that's what we went with as a one-off when it came up in a game.
More if you feel it's warranted, less if you don't. You could also make the target roll a defense test; if defender wins he's not hit by the grenade but still gets hit by the gas or explosion (assuming the grenade lands on target), if the attacker wins and the grenade lands on target the defender has to resist both the I'mct damage and the gas or explosion.
At least, that's how we did it.
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That sounds very reasonable. I was thinking 10s this morning to make it like a shotgun blast but as seen on tv and movies grenades do not seem to move that fast so 6s sounds about right.
Another question (sorry if it was answered early) Could an underbarrel launcher be used without being attached to a weapon? Again I'm referring to the HKX30
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Another question (sorry if it was answered early) Could an underbarrel launcher be used without being attached to a weapon? Again I'm referring to the HKX30
About the only time I feel this would work would be on a drone.
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I would make it more than that, honestly. Getting shot with a grenade can kill you, and 6S is a bit weak. Maybe do 10P, with -2P with every range increment to represent the loss in velocity.
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I would make it more than that, honestly. Getting shot with a grenade can kill you, and 6S is a bit weak. Maybe do 10P, with -2P with every range increment to represent the loss in velocity.
Like I said, use whatever your table think fits ;) I just picked 6S because I had to make a snap decision, and we never really encountered that again; I personally think 10P isn't enough if you're going for lethal, as even a human with a Body of 1 will have 9 condition monitor boxes, so if you're going for lethality you'd want to up it to 12 so it could reliably kill. Anyway...
A modern day underbarrel grenade launcher can theoretically be fired while detached, but I can't imagine you'd be very precise doing it; I'm not even sure I'd allow you to roll to hit, and just force the full amount of scatter because you're essentially trying to fire this:
(http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/m203_5.jpg)
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Generally you can acquire grip/stock attachments for those, if you want.
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Generally you can acquire grip/stock attachments for those, if you want.
Not sure that was the question, but if it was you can definitely get pistol grips and even extendable stocks for an M203.
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Let's put it this way, these are microgrenades. They're not the same thing Arny used to level armoured swat team members in the Terminator series. They're a fraction of the size and mass, however based on the ranges and how they compare to current ones, they have drastically increased velocity (the ranges are insane!) so we can assume they're approximately equivalent to riot control bean bags. Treat them as a Gel Round loaded heavy pistol. I would say, roughly, 10S AP 0 at point blank, then apply a -1 DV, +1 AP modifier per increment. This is lethal with some net hits, to reflect getting hit in the centre chest between heart beats (known to kill with riot control rounds) but not usually lethal (because it is comparable to a baseball player getting nailed by a straight drive).
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They're not all micro-grenades. 40mm is pretty common for the Underbarrel launchers at the very least.
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They're not all micro-grenades. 40mm is pretty common for the Underbarrel launchers at the very least.
Minigrenades are grenades specifically designed for use
with grenade launchers, set to arm when they have traveled
5 meters from their point of origin and explode on
impact (unless using an airburst link, p. 431).
Unless specifically stated otherwise, I would imagine launchers would all use the modern minigrenade. Old school launchers could use the 40mm, but why on earth would they choose bulk, weight, and just terrible comparative design over sleek, modern, lightweight, and equally effective minigrenades.
YMMV
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Then let's assume 25mm. And given they're still a projectile with power behind them, put them at 12P flat, no AP. It is basically a shotgun slug at that point, not a bean bag.
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Then let's assume 25mm. And given they're still a projectile with power behind them, put them at 12P flat, no AP. It is basically a shotgun slug at that point, not a bean bag.
I dunno. Shotgun slugs travel at something like 1200 fps, while grenade launchers send their payload at something like 250 fps.
In general, MijRai, I think you know a lot more about this kinda thing than me. Can you clue me in on your thinking process?
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Then let's assume 25mm. And given they're still a projectile with power behind them, put them at 12P flat, no AP. It is basically a shotgun slug at that point, not a bean bag.
"The bean bag round consists of a small fabric “pillow” filled with #9 lead shot weighing about 40 grams (1.4 oz). It is fired from a normal 12-gauge shotgun. When fired, the bag is expelled at around 70 to 90 metres per second (230 to 300 ft/s)" (Source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bean_bag_round))
I would stand by my comparison. There is no way the under-barrel launcher is the same as a purpose built full sized shotgun. Especially since an under-barrel shotgun (Nissan Optimum) deals 10P, I think 10S to reflect it is not designed as a direct weapon but has equivalent inertia is perfectly fair and has the math to back it up.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM25_CDTE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopup_PAW-20
25mm and 20mm grenades, 690 to 1000fps respectively for the low-velocity variants. Flatter trajectories than your usual 40mm grenade and accurate at point targets up to 500-550 meters. While slower than a shotgun slug, that's still a multi-ounce projectile (I don't care how 'miniaturized' it is, you're not sticking that much killing power in a warhead that doesn't have appreciable weight) going at around the same speed as a sub-sonic 9mm round. That is not non-lethal damage.
Given it fires micro-grenades, I definitely think it would equal the damage on the Optimum at least (I stand by my 12P, no AP statement). Size isn't that much of a factor in how much damage a firearm does, it's the charge behind the round and the weight/velocity it has when it comes out of the barrel (as well as having a chamber strong enough to safely fire it).
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I'm on my phone so I don't have formatting options, but this is the m203 40mm under barrel launcher, ubiquitous with grenade launchers, listed at 240 m/s
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M203_grenade_launcher
The XM25 is not a launcher. It's an airbursting shell. In my opinion it is more comparable to assault cannons, or a specialized weapon not listed. Easy to make an equivalent using airburst links though, I guess.
It's very much what you imagine it to be in your games. In my opinion, I don't see an under barrel launcher beating some assault rifles in physical damage. It just doesn't make sense to me in terms of narrative, and would ruin opportunities for really cool, cinematic gameplay. You may prefer a more lethal interpretation in your games, and that has some basis. As always, the rules are an aid to gameplay, and if they start to hinder your storytelling then ignore them.
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So would a char get a defense test against getting hit by the projectile itself?
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240m/s is much faster than your initial 70-90, and is definitely capable of causing lethal damage given the size of the shell.
The XM25 is explicitly a grenade launcher, it is just designed with airburst shells in mind. You can get Airburst as a weapon upgrade for all launchers for 600 nuyen at only 6R Availability.
Why would a grenade launcher not beat a rifle's damage? It's firing a projectile between five to eight times the size of a normal bullet at a somewhat slower velocity. That much mass accelerated that much should cause a notable amount of damage, before it detonates. We're not even talking about after the grenade hits, when that explosion just floors anything that isn't heavily armored and/or a buff troll. The limitation being you can only carry so many grenades and the risk of possible collateral damage. And how does that ruin coolness or cinematic gameplay?
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Anecdotal only, but the only times I've heard of a fourty mike mike actually killing someone by (unintentionally) hitting a target cause of death has been head trauma.
A 40mm grenade is propelled out of the barrel quickly as indicated by the above muzzle velocities, but keep in mind that it also loses velocity, and thus kinetic energy, significantly faster than even a subsonic bullet because of the mass of the projectile itself. Also keep in mind that unlike a bullet shaped to penetrate and with enough energy to actually do so, while a modern day 40mm grenade has a much larger surface area and so would need an equally significant velocity to penetrate a soft target; gunshot victims die from shock trauma or exsanguination more often than not, and a 40mm hitting you in the chest (especially if you're wearing armor) is therefore more likely to inflict Stun damage in my opinion. The exception would be headshots, of course, as a knock of that kind to the noggin would probably put you in the grave from blunt force trauma to the head.
If you ask me, getting hit by the Shadowrun microgrenade should only be lethal in the absolute worst case situation, meaning critical glitch; it's by definition an unlucky course of events. I'd liken the projectile more to a bean bag round than a slug, and give it a lower damage code but some special rules for what happens on a glitch or critical glitch, personally. There is such a thing as too much realism, and I'd draw the line at microgrenades inflicting shotgun-level damage.
So would a char get a defense test against getting hit by the projectile itself?
That's how I handled it the one time it came up; the player rolled his attack as normal and got enough hits to land his grenade on the target without scatter, and then the NPC rolled defense against the attack. He failed, took 6 stun modified by damage resistance, then had to resist the explosion of the proximity trigger grenade which blew up when the grenade hit.
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Totally different approach:
I'd rule the damage (non realistic as it might be) pretty low, because having a cheap and easily available high damage - high range underbarrel weapon that can be used for both precise and multiple effect wide payloads would rival normal weapons way to much.
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Sorry like I said I'm on my phone. The m203 is listed at 250 fps. I apologize for my mistake, you can verify through the link I provided earlier.
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True old sun editions the shock glove hand physical damage from Unarmed on top stun damage from the glove now it's just stun
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How about you subtract 1 DV for each range band? Air resistance is roughly proportional to the square of the radius, meaning bigger grenades are going to slow down quite quickly. Meaning like 12P at short range, 11P at medium and so on.
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I was saying -2 earlier.
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so 12p AP-, DV reduced by 2 per range band. I could get behind that
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...OK, would an underbarrel Bola launcher be a single breach or muzzle load?
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...OK, would an underbarrel Bola launcher be a single breach or muzzle load?
There's no reason it couldn't be either: A muzzle load could operate similar to the USA's 60mm mortar; you drop it down, then use the trigger (more of a lever really) when you're ready to fire. A breach loader would be similar to the M203 grenade launcher; slide part of it forward, insert grenade (or bola package in this case), close it up and fire. I can't remember the stats for it off hand, but actually there's no reason it couldn't use a small clip, say 4 rounds, if the bola package was small enough (think SkyWall 100, but smaller).
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...the bolas used are the size of regulation baseball...(well...actually are baseballs one with a grenade concealed in it and the other weighted to balance it out so it flies properly (a "boom bola" as mentioned in R&G).
The Skywall 100 is pretty large, being basically a shoulder launched pneumatic cannon. Based on the measurement of the barrel it appears the projectile is a little less than the the diameter of a softball (about 15 CM). A regulation MLB baseball is about 7.4 CM in diameter.
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Dear Loyal Customers,
We here at Ares Macrotechnology would like to remind you all that the integrated underbarrel micro-grenade launcher installed on the celebrated Ares Alpha is at the bleeding edge of technology.
As for the Ares Antioch, we here at Ares Macrotechnology would like to thank MijRai, who stated that the Antioch was "Basically, a revolver on steroids."
We here at Ares Macrotechnology agree wholeheartedly.
To show our gratitude, we here at Ares Macrotechnology would like to send one (1) Ares Antioch, brand new, and thirty two (32) non-lethal smoke grenades, in an array of different colors, to your current place of residence.
We here at Ares Macrotechnology hope you enjoy this gift
-Damian Knight, CEO and President of Ares Macrotechnology
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*Finds and erases all tags, bugs, trackers, etc. before cackling triumphantly.*
I mean, the 'array of colors' is only Red, White and Blue, but I can live with that.