Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Shadowjack on <07-27-11/0450:36>
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Am I allowed to put armor on all of my cyberlimbs to get a ton of ballistic dice? I can't find any rule against it in the core book.
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Yes
but save some Capacities for other Gadgets (Attribute Up, hidden Comlink,Cybergyro,Fingercompartment,Fingercamera,Biomonitor,Nanite Hive,etc,etc).You'll regret it if You "cram Full" (is that the right Word?)all your Cyberarms/Legs only with Armor
Hough !
Medicineman
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Some GMs houserule that Armor is averaged across the body locations like Attributes are.
But by the strict rules, you can indeed stack up massive amounts of armor in SR4, cyberarmor being one of those contributing options.
However, consider this - high armor isn't the impenetrable ultimate defense it was in previous editions. It means you'll be taking a lot more stun damage one way or another. Additionally, if the GM decides to ramp up the opposition's firepower to match your uber-armor, your fellow runners might be hosed.
This isn't even counting the negative social reactions from other people in regards to your massive cyberarmor.
-k
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I don't quite understand your comment about stun damage. Would you please clarify what you mean exactly? That is pretty cool that I can get lots of armor. I actually couldn't find many other enhancements that interested me other than hydraulic jacks and attributes. I'm also finding it a bit confusing to think about the attributes my cyber limbs would have. My idea is to play an elf with high agility but if I take cyber limbs it seems like I'm screwing myself. Also, I assume the starting 3 body your cyber limbs get only applies if you are hit on that limb specificly, right?
Also, if I have a body of 6 on a single cyber limb does that mean my character's body is effectively 6? It says in the 4e book something like "Mike is shot in a hall so he uses the average body rating of his cyber limbs". I also don't understand what the purpose of taking a cyber hand is instead of a cyber arm. Any help on this is greatly appreciated as I can't really resume making my character lol.
Am I allowed to take a gyro stabilization on both cyber arms to get 6 points of recoil compensation?
Another issue I'm having is I want to play an elf but it almost seems pointless because it looks like any race with a cyber hand can have 10 agility for firearms. And if I chose Troll would I be using the cyberarms body as my main body rating? I wish the 4e book was much more clear on all of this. Sorry for so many questions.
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I don't quite understand your comment about stun damage. Would you please clarify what you mean exactly?
I guess he meant that shots don't bounce off your armor if the damage value is less than your Armor value, you still take stun damage (unless you manage to soak all of it).
Another issue I'm having is I want to play an elf but it almost seems pointless because it looks like any race with a cyber hand can have 10 agility for firearms. And if I chose Troll would I be using the cyberarms body as my main body rating? I wish the 4e book was much more clear on all of this. Sorry for so many questions.
The description in the BBB is quite good IMO, but let me rephrase it a bit (this just applies to attributes, Armor is not an attribute and hence simply added, just like a helmet simply adds +2 Armor):
- normally, you use the average of the natural attributes and any cyber parts, rounded down.
- If an action specifically involves a certain limb, use the attributes of that limb
- If an requires involves the coordinated effort of multiple body parts, use the one with the weakest rating.
So for damage resistance, you mostly use the average of your natural Body and any enhanced limbs, since Shadowrun normally does not use hit locations. If damage specifically goes into a certain region for one reason or another, use the Body of that location. When running both legs are required, so you use the attributes of the weaker one.
Which of the three rules applies of course requires some eyeballing. For example, it can be discussed endlessly whether high Agility in the arms is enough for shooting, or whether the torso (and maybe legs) also should be factored in. My personal rule of thumb is that if the action is primarily done with a certain limb, I use the stats of that limb. If it is conceivable that one weak limb inhibits a strong link (like when doing precision work with both hands), I use the lower stat.
To get back to your example, shooting is done with the arms, so use the cyberarms' Agility. However, it involves the whole arm, so just an upgraded hand is not enough.
I also don't understand what the purpose of taking a cyber hand is instead of a cyber arm. Any help on this is greatly appreciated as I can't really resume making my character lol.
Well, maybe somebody does not want/need to sacrifice his whole arm.
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Ahhh, cyberleprosy.
1) A huge number of characters would greatly benefit from getting 2 cyberhands and 2 cyberfeet with armor, or 2 cyber lower legs and 2 cyber forearms with armor. A lot of GMs consider this extra ripe gouda and will not be happy with you; the FAQ also 'suggests' not counting partial cyberlimb armor. Getting armor on full cyberlimbs is generally considered much less sketchy.
2) Another good thing you can do with cyberlimbs is get yourself a cyberarm and use one-handed weapons (like pistols) with it. "Leading an attack with a cyberarm" is explicitly mentioned as a time when you use only that arm's agility score, so this lets you have a low agility score on yourself, a high agility score on your cyberarm, and be pretty good at fighting. It's an excellent way for a character who isn't primarily focused on combat, like a hacker, to still have a solid way of being effective in a fight. How this works with cyber lower arms is unclear and will probably depend on your GM.
3) A good reason to get partial limbs rather than full limbs is if you DO have high stats. Partial limbs are only used when ONLY that body part is being used. Thus, you can (for example) get your offhand replaced with a Cyber Lower Arm and not worry about having 3 stats on it most of the time. So why do this? Well, there are other useful things you can put in cyberlimbs, such as Cyberarm Gyromounts, Nanohives, Foot Anchors, and of course Cyberskates.
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a cyberhand could be used to geat a ....Cheapo Point of Armor or a cheap alternative place for a Nanohive.
a Modular Cyberhand can be quite some Gimmick (like a Drone Hand or a Set of different Cyberhands for different occasions or modular Cyberfeet with detachable Skimmer Disk or Waterjets )
so how Do You Americans say ? YMMV ?!
with a german Dance
Medicineman
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Thanks a lot guys, that was really helpful. I think I'll stick with elf and go with a cyber torso, 2 cyber legs and probably 2 cyber arms as well. I've always had a lot of interest in cyber limbs but never got to try it so I'm excited. Any more discussion on this is very welcome :)
Oops O forgot to as something hehe. What is the BBB? Also, What are some options to reduce stun damage intake?
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I'm assuming a pain editor is the best for handling stun damage.
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"BBB" is the core SR4A rulebook.
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Oh, okay. I wonder why it's called BBB.
So if I have 2 cyber arms, 2 cyber legs and a cyber torso do I not really need to put up my character's body, strength and agility? Right now I have them all at 1 and it seems that my character will function very well like that.
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Agility? Not unless you can figure out how to make an agility test involving ONLY your head.
Strength? See above.
Body? That one is more debatable, because you would resist, say, Toxins with you actual body, not your limbs (since they couldn't help you soak toxins). Probably the same for Mana- spells, maybe the same for Power-spells. That said it matters less.
I would talk to your GM because plenty of people do not run Cyberlimbs as written (also, the rules are VERY poorly written and explained).
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I agree. I found the cyber limb section to be quite poorly written an ambiguous while also leaving out many important details. I thought Augmentation might help but it didn't. It's kind of cool not having to raise my physical attributes(except reaction). Thanks for the info!
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Oh, okay. I wonder why it's called BBB.
It stands for "Big Black Book", and is another in a long line of traditional TLA (Three Letter Acronyms.).
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Oh, okay. I wonder why it's called BBB.
It stands for "Big Black Book", and is another in a long line of traditional TLA (Three Letter Acronyms.).
An abbreviation isn't an acronym unless it is pronounced as a word.
Example: PETA is an acronym, BBB is not.
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TLA: Three Letter Acronym/Abbreviation, then. Both work. :P
EDIT: Also, Three Letter Agency.
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You mean you don't call it the "BaBaBah"? ;D
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Oh, okay. I wonder why it's called BBB.
It stands for "Big Black Book", and is another in a long line of traditional TLA (Three Letter Acronyms.).
An abbreviation isn't an acronym unless it is pronounced as a word.
Example: PETA is an acronym, BBB is not.
Err, normally I completely agree with Onion Man, but I'm also a grammar Nazi, and this struck me as incorrect...
A) No-one mentioned Abbreviations before you did
B) An abbreviation (http://www.definitions.net/definition/abbreviation)is an accepted shortened form of a word (singular), eg Dr = Doctor, Mr = Mister
C) PETA is an acronym (http://www.definitions.net/definition/acronym)(as composed of the 1st letters of the words it represents)
D) Ergo, BBB is an acronym
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I'm the wrong grammar Nazi to grammar Nazi.
World English Dictionary
acronym (ˈækrənɪm) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]
— n
a pronounceable name made up of a series of initial letters or parts of words; for example, UNESCO for the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization
Word Origin & History
acronym
1943 coinage from acro-, comb. form of Gk. akros "tip, end" (see acrid) + Eng. -onym "name" (abstracted from homonym ; see name). The practice was non-existent before 20c. except in cabalistic esoterica and acrostic poetry.
Cultural Dictionary
acronym [( ak -ruh-nim)]
A word formed by combining the beginning letters of a name or phrase, as in WASP for w hite A nglo- S axon P rotestant, or by combining the initial syllables of a series of words, as in radar, which stands for ra dio de tecting a nd r anging.
Note : Acronyms are often less clumsy than the complete expressions they represent and are easier to write and remember.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/acronym
Also
In writing, an abbreviation is any shortened form of a word or phrase.
Note, however, that there are types of abbreviations; the most common being acronyms and intialisms.
acronym - (a type of abbreviation)
A word formed from the initial parts (letters OR syllables OR arbitrary parts) of a name.
Examples: NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation)
initialism - (a type of abbreviation)
A group of initial letters used as an abbreviation for a name or expression, each letter being pronounced separately.
For example, "BBC" (British Broadcasting Corporation), or "PBS" (Public Broadcasting System).
http://www.lyberty.com/encyc/articles/abbr.html
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That's it, only one way to truly handle this type of situation.
Both of you face off for a "Yo Momma" fight.
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Yo Momma is so old that when she was told to act her age the hag dropped dead.
:P
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Actually, as your friendly neighborhood moderator, I'd suggest taking it to PM's. Or starting a new thread for the Yo Momma fight.
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I'm the wrong grammar Nazi to grammar Nazi.
After some web searching to clarify my point, I have to cede to several of yours :-X
Dammit! :-[ and +1 to you.
I was previously unaware that the technical definition of an Acronym required it to be a word (however what is a 'Word' is still up for rigorous debate, especially as Pronunciation and spelling consistency go right out the window where abbreviations are concerned)
But for reference, I'm not acknowledging any literary site that can't spell 'Liberty' - http://www.lyberty.com :P
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Baaaack on topic... Quick question about massive amounts of cyberlimbing, like say 2 legs, 2 arms, and the requisite torso. Does anyone else require background stories for the "Why the HELL did your character do that to himself?!" Also, that amount of cybering would instantly sign said character up for Distinctive Style, and would possibly lead to in-game additions of Cyberpsychosis, Augment Addiction, Weak Immune System from all of the autoimmune treatments, Implant-Induce Immune Deficiency, Buggy 'Ware, Mystery Mod Noise, High Maintenance Implant, and the killer.... TLE-x. Also called Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. Seriously, all that cybering is bad juju. When an uncybered adept can usually wipe the floor with you after ten run's worth of karma. And Ghost help you if you meet up with a hacker or technomancer that decides they don't like you...
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Lyberty is usually used as the spelling for a first name, and has been adopted by many companies for name purposes. I've also seen it used in some very very old books, but nothing written after the 1700s, and it isn't commonly used today for any actual meaning.
As for the massive armoring, I wouldn't require an explanation, but I would give him a hard time every time he passed through a metal/MAD scanner.
I wouldn't force any negative qualities onto the character, but I would play all the in game social and logical ill effects of being made of metal armor (that weighs a ton, no riding rickety elevators without a nice creepy grinding noise).
Can you not just turn the wireless off on your cyberware to prevent hacking? I also didn't think a hacker could hack your DNI arms.
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Mentions in the books that all cyberware comes equipped with wireless capabilities. You can turn the wireless off, and it SHOULD be safe, but a few of those features the comes with most cyber-arms are set up to run with the wireless ON. When I GM it, they wanna turn it off, they can. But, everything else in the arm will have to be rerouted. And most gun bunnies don't know how to do that.
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... Quick question about massive amounts of cyberlimbing, like say 2 legs, 2 arms, and the requisite torso. Does anyone else require background stories for the "Why the HELL did your character do that to himself?!" Also, that amount of cybering would instantly sign said character up for Distinctive Style, and would possibly lead to in-game additions of Cyberpsychosis, Augment Addiction, Weak Immune System from all of the autoimmune treatments, Implant-Induce Immune Deficiency, Buggy 'Ware, Mystery Mod Noise, High Maintenance Implant, and the killer.... TLE-x. Also called Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. Seriously, all that cybering is bad juju. ...
there is no Automatic" If you only have 1 Essence left over you instantly get a Cyberpsychosis and You instantly get a Freak Faktor "!
Its ok for a Player to choose this for his Char (and it fits ImO perfectly) but its not mandatory !
I have (among others) such a Char (Cyb Ork) he's "fully Transformed" and yes I gave him a Cyberpsychosis (callous)but I also gave him Magic Resistance and other advantages
I also have other Chars whose Essence is also below 1 or even lower and they're mentally Stable
with a stable Dance
Medicineman
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Of course, the biggest disadvantage of heavy use of cyberlimbs:
You just limited where you can go.
You're going to set off security alerts wherever you go. Good luck trying to get into SeaTac or other airports to catch a flight. Many buildings are equipped with scanners that can pick you up like a beacon on a dark night. Cops are going to hassle you just walking down the street.
Remember this is Shadowrun, not Cyborg Fiesta. Everything out there in the world is bigger and meaner than you are. Painting a giant bullseye on your chest isn't necessarily the best move.
-k
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My character is an elf with the trustyworthy quality and rating 2 tailored pheremones with 8 charisma and an array of knowledge skills to be able to discuss in depth pop culture topics. I also have 7 negotiation. My build is very unorthadox and I think it will be fun to play a character who is not far from a cyborg who still possess incredible social skills. Of course, many will frown on the choices I've made in game but it should create an interesting dynamic. My plan is to make many contacts during the game and I can probably get around some of the social barriers this way. I think it will be quite fun!
As for squaring off against an adept, I think I have a good chance. My character can take an incredible amount of punishment and he's not easy to hit. His offensive abilities are fairly powerful as well. However, some of the crucial pieces of gear I need are unavailable during character creation and I have maxed out my 35 point positive quality limit already. So for the first while I will be significantly less powerful than I will be in the not so distant future.
I'm about to begin a live campaign with my Brother. We live together so we decided to start up this campaign for just the two of us and probably have one or two npcs join us. It's going to be pretty cool being able to play sessions whenever we want without having to make schedules with friends which can lead to delays and cancellations etc. Plus, we can play shorter sessions if we want so it should be pretty cool.
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... Quick question about massive amounts of cyberlimbing, like say 2 legs, 2 arms, and the requisite torso. Does anyone else require background stories for the "Why the HELL did your character do that to himself?!" Also, that amount of cybering would instantly sign said character up for Distinctive Style, and would possibly lead to in-game additions of Cyberpsychosis, Augment Addiction, Weak Immune System from all of the autoimmune treatments, Implant-Induce Immune Deficiency, Buggy 'Ware, Mystery Mod Noise, High Maintenance Implant, and the killer.... TLE-x. Also called Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. Seriously, all that cybering is bad juju. ...
there is no Automatic" If you only have 1 Essence left over you instantly get a Cyberpsychosis and You instantly get a Freak Faktor "!
Its ok for a Player to choose this for his Char (and it fits ImO perfectly) but its not mandatory !
I have (among others) such a Char (Cyb Ork) he's "fully Transformed" and yes I gave him a Cyberpsychosis (callous)but I also gave him Magic Resistance and other advantages
I also have other Chars whose Essence is also below 1 or even lower and they're mentally Stable
with a stable Dance
Medicineman
Note that I said "possibly" there. And negative qualities CAN be handed out during gameplay if the GM thinks you deserve it. And no, you don't get additional BP or Karma if those negative qualities are "awarded" during gameplay. I get someone that hands me a cyber-monster, and he doesn't AT LEAST have Cyberware Compatibility, he can expect that eventually, his meat is gonna start rejecting some of those in some bad ways. Especially if it's standard grade cyberware, or worse, second-hand wares. I'm not talking just a couple of cyber arms, I mean the ones that are damn near to being c-zombies. The body DIES if it has too much cyberware installed. And you tell me there is no gray area between being just fine, and DYING because there isn't enough meat to sustain you? Sorry, but I don't buy it. You have less than one essence, and weird crap starts happening to your remaining meat. Not saying everyone has to run that way, but in my house, that's how it goes.
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I think that's pretty reasonable, Lacynth40. You make a good point regarding the gray area although these extra rules are not even printed in the core book afaik. The repercussions are extreme and potentially game ruining if taken too far. Personally, I don't like the idea of a gm handing out these qualities to me against my will. I like to think that cyberware is a balancing point for cyber vs adept and adepts don't take any ruinous negative qualities in this manner yet they can go on an continue to gain adept powers. I think it would be cooler if heavily cybered characters could have very bad things happen to them but it's still repairable. My plan is to get the best grade of cyberware I can and go down to .1 essence for the full experience.
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Hey, do what ya like.
Just reminding you that Shadowrun is not like most other roleplaying games. In other games, flashy combat monsters are a good thing. In Shadowrun, they tend to get dead.
-k
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Yep, it's yer game. Feel free to explore the world to your liking. I just like a bit more grit in mine. As for the adepts, oh, they get hosed quite a bit, if they just concentrate on being physical monsters. Like, people tend to forget that awakened characters shine just a little bit more on the astral plane than mundanes do. An adept that can't fight back in the astral is going to have a bad day if they run into any vicious spirits...
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The body DIES if it has too much cyberware installed. And you tell me there is no gray area between being just fine, and DYING because there isn't enough meat to sustain you?
Well, yes. Because there's a very strict definition of "too much cyberware," and it's whenever you hit or pass up 0.00 Essence. Period. There are options in place for a more detailed degradation (choosing to take the various immune system flaws, or a cyberpsychosis, or whatever), but any GM that just arbitrarily slapped 'em onto a player without at least forewarning them is being kind of douchey about it. I'm a big fan of adepts (a bigger fan than most, I'd wager), but there's no need to randomly hose a street sammie like that, either, in my book. Both builds come with some downsides already installed, tacking on new ones is just showing some favoritism and likely to breed player resentment. Having someone's "meat start rejecting...in weird ways" is just randomly screwing a player who has already satisfied the rules for some gear (paying the nuyen cost and Essence cost), IMHO.
There's no such thing as almost a cyberzombie. You either are (negative Essence and crazy rituals and such), or you aren't. In a world of gray morality, there are still some very stark white/black yes/no situations. Positive versus negative Essence is one of those things, where the rules are concerned. Low (but positive) Essence has been used as a justification in the past for describing some folks as crazy, sure, but there's no rule that says it HAS to happen.
Some folks can skate on thin ice (sub-1.0 Essence) just fine, others freak the hell out and turn into slasher-flick monsters when they first get cyberoptics and some spurs installed. As far as the rules are concerned, it can go either way.
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Gotta agree with Critias here. Essence is used as a balancing factor in the game mechanics. As a GM you can hand out negative qualities when warranted, but I've always taken it to be more of the enemies, dulled senses, in debt, ect that arise from botched runs or damage to a person.
Handing out negative qualities because a character is following the rules of balance for his character type (augmented) is way too extreme to me. If the player wants to be experiencing those qualities he can take them at any time also.
Do you hand out negative qualities to Mages or Adepts that have a six or higher Magic just because they're gaining a high score in that balancing area? This just feels like a kneejerk reaction to the character type.
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And negative qualities CAN be handed out during gameplay if the GM thinks you deserve it.
sure, he can also give free positive Ones ,but that
I get someone that hands me a cyber-monster, and he doesn't AT LEAST have Cyberware Compatibility, he can expect that eventually, his meat is gonna start rejecting some of those in some bad ways.
is pure GM's Fiat because it is by NO WAY backed up by the Rules !
And you tell me there is no gray area between being just fine, and DYING because there isn't enough meat to sustain you? Sorry, but I don't buy it.
Its not me thats telling this ,its RAW
Me I'm saying that its perfectly OK to take these disadvantages(I do so frequently) but that its not mandatory
The body DIES if it has too much cyberware installed.
its not the Body ,its the Soul !!
Hough!
Medicineman
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Me I'm saying that its perfectly OK to take these disadvantages(I do so frequently) but that its not mandatory
Of course it's not mandatory, SR4 rules mostly don't tell you that you HAVE to play your character in a certain way, but that does not absolve a player from having to act out his character. ;)
Even with a decent Essence score (Deltaware + Adapsin + ...), if somebody is can rip off your arm and beat you to pulp with it, or smell antshit a few kilometers upwind, I expect him to have a somewhat different attitude to "normal" teammates - mothering, arrogant, ashamed of himself, whatever.
PS: And because it's really hurting my eyes, the word is spelled s-u-r-e
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And it's not "the soul" beacause that does not EXIST in SR . .
Else, Ancestor Spirits are the Souls of the deceased . .
And as such, Necromancy would work just fine too . .
Including reanimation/resurrection by binding Spirits into Bodies.
ESSENCE IS JUST A BALANCING TOOL, NOTHING MORE!
It IS the body slowly dieing from ware-overload. Nothing else.
Cyber-Zombies get cancer and necrosis in the fleshy bits after all.
And usually, over the top characters DO act over the top too . .
If i am Bullet-Proof, i will help people with heavy pistols aiming at me.
And then show them how it's done after having caught the bullet with my left eye-lid.
If i can shoot arrows through tanks, I WILL SHOOT ARROWS THROUGH TANKS!
And so on, and so on . .
Maybe not all the time, but it WILL happen. Because this is WHY such characters are MADE.
TO
BE
AWESOME!
DOT COM!
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if somebody is can rip off your arm and beat you to pulp with it, or smell antshit a few kilometers upwind, I expect him to have a somewhat different attitude to "normal" teammates - mothering, arrogant, ashamed of himself, whatever.
I hope You also insist on a different attitude from a Mage or Technomancer ? Because these might far more removed from normal feelings & emotions than a Char with <1 Essence !
PS: And because it's really hurting my eyes, the word is spelled s-u-r-e
Its corrected for sure ;)
Hough !
Medicineman
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In Cyberpunk there were rules for getting your character therapy for cyberpsychosis. You get to go into immersion therapy using brain dance and pet bunnies for a couple of months. I used to let my players do that to get back some of their humanity. You could probably mod the rules so that SR4 characters could buy off their character's cyberpsychosis.
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In Cyberpunk there were rules for getting your character therapy for cyberpsychosis. You get to go into immersion therapy using brain dance and pet bunnies for a couple of months. I used to let my players do that to get back some of their humanity. You could probably mod the rules so that SR4 characters could buy off their character's cyberpsychosis.
But there's no mod to the SR4 rules necessary for that. Taking cyberpsychosis in the first place is entirely optional (it's a Negative Quality that you can choose to purchase, or not to), and there are existing rules for buying off Negative Qualities during gameplay. I'd say therapy isn't a bad way to role-play out buying that Negative Quality off, but there's no need to "mod the rules" to let it happen; the rules are already there. Cyberpsychosis is just another Negative Quality, and the rules already handle it.
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Fun Fact #549:
When I did a d20 Shadowrun a few years (okay, okay, a decade ago), instead of creating an Essence for the character, I multiplied Essence Cost by 3 and you subtracted it from your Charisma score. Social 'ware gave their benefits to checks and skills, without enhancing the score.
So the more 'ware you had, the lower your Charisma went and the more you became 'shunned' by the common people when dealing with them. (Intimidation was the only thing unaffected).
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D20 causes cancer you know. You should get yourself checked out, FastJack.
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Hey, just be glad I didn't use the option suggested by the Paranoia series. :P
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Making Shadowrun D20 causes you to be shunned more than being a cyberzombie :)
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Quick question. What DOES a lower Essence get you, in RAW. Just so I'm crystal clear.
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Quick question. What DOES a lower Essence get you, in RAW. Just so I'm crystal clear.
A sooner death when attacked by essence eating critter.
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Quick question. What DOES a lower Essence get you, in RAW. Just so I'm crystal clear.
A sooner death when attacked by essence eating critter.
Less Cyberware/Bioware/Genetech therapy options for future development
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Lower Magic Maximum and possible burnout.
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And some penalties when folks try friendly mojo on you.
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Oh, and of course more beeps (usually unless your gear is all Delta) on the cyberware scanner.
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a Malus for Magic or Mundane Healing
He who dances with the Letter M
Medicineman
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I hope You also insist on a different attitude from a Mage or Technomancer ? Because these might far more removed from normal feelings & emotions than a Char with <1 Essence !
If they are powerful enough, sure.