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Horrors

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freddieflatline

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« Reply #435 on: <06-17-12/2229:16> »
Sengir, I think you need to compare the two.  Deus took numerous minutes to deliberately create, one at a time, UV addicts who were greatly hindered if they went off his grid.
See Mirikon. It's not a bug, it's a feature...

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Mirage took five minutes to accidentally create five perfected otaku.  Which one do you think had more experience?  Which one do you think had been assembled at the most basic level of their code to interface with the human mind and correct 'deviations' in their thought processes?
I'd content Deus' brainwashing and mind control techniques were far more advanced than anything Mirage could come up with. She could repair damage caused to nodes of the Network, but never could have done something similar herself. With all the resources Deus had at his disposal Mirage could certainly have drawn level, but she/it didn't have those resources.

I would also doubt the "accidental" bit. I'm pretty sure the five Mirage Otaku are specifically given this "gift".

Lastly, all the allusions you claim to be hard facts are from a single source: A novel. While technically novels are canon, they often take more than just a few liberties with setting and mechanics. I recall one novel where a character can suddenly jump crazy high because he activated his Wired Reflexes...

AHHHHHH! You said the B word!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Xzylvador

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« Reply #436 on: <06-18-12/1447:22> »
... 'Because' ?

Mirikon

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« Reply #437 on: <06-18-12/1513:34> »
I know it is unlikely to happen, but what would the result be if a horror was invested with a bug?
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ChromeZephyr

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« Reply #438 on: <06-18-12/1615:40> »
Is that even possible?  I dearly hope not, if only for the setting's sake.

TheNarrator

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« Reply #439 on: <06-18-12/1622:05> »
If anything, I'd think that the Horror would wind up possessing the bug.

Sichr

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« Reply #440 on: <06-18-12/1636:32> »
hmmm..I dont think that itr is possible for spirit to posess another spirit, but Horrors are possibly something different...do you think dragon can end up posessed by Invae?

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #441 on: <06-18-12/1836:18> »
Only now, the Empress of Japan.

Dude.

I might have a use for this.

Oi!  Hands off Hitomi, I've already got plans on her!!

What the end user might consider a product flaw might, in the mind of the designer, be a product feature. Before the Shutdown, Deus had already had one of the otaku he'd drawn from the Matrix at large betray him. One way to keep your kiddies loyal is to ensure that, if they somehow break conditioning, they can't run away without losing most of their abilities.

Very true, and I agree - probably deliberate, considering how well (or rather, how poorly) our little ronin otaku turned out.

Quote from: The Wyrm Ouroboros
Mirage took five minutes to accidentally create five perfected otaku.  Which one do you think had more experience?  Which one do you think had been assembled at the most basic level of their code to interface with the human mind and correct 'deviations' in their thought processes?
I'd content Deus' brainwashing and mind control techniques were far more advanced than anything Mirage could come up with. She could repair damage caused to nodes of the Network, but never could have done something similar herself. With all the resources Deus had at his disposal Mirage could certainly have drawn level, but she/it didn't have those resources.

Pretty sure you mean 'contend' there, so I'll presume that.

I think you confuse 'could have' with 'would have'.  Mirage was specifically designed, programmed, and used to correct extreme psychological imbalances within the individuals with whom she had contact.  To do so, she had a wide array of techniques and programs available to her, probably including ones derived directly from the first Crash Virus.  To use human terms, her psychology was to help people, even if her techniques and technology was able to do much more - and much worse.

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I would also doubt the "accidental" bit. I'm pretty sure the five Mirage Otaku are specifically given this "gift".

Lastly, all the allusions you claim to be hard facts are from a single source: A novel. While technically novels are canon, they often take more than just a few liberties with setting and mechanics. I recall one novel where a character can suddenly jump crazy high because he activated his Wired Reflexes...

The 'accidental' part comes from the novel; go re-read it, and you'll see specifically why it's those five who aren't affected by the intense psychological trauma that everyone else jacked in at the time was.  They weren't planned; they 'simply' had an outlook on life, reflected in their iconography, that enabled them to cope with what was basically sudden major thanatopic psychological trauma - 'Hi, you're gonna die right now!!"

The allusions I claim as hard facts don't just come from the novel, however; they also come from myriad non-novel game resources that accept the novel as canonical.  As well, your argument is logically flawed; we are not talking about 'all the novels', we are speaking specifically about this one, Psychotrope, which really doesn't play much with any of the mechanics, excluding the 'otaku who don't Fade' thing -- which fact didn't even get revealed until much later, through means undoubtedly more acceptable to you.

I can't quote them all; I wouldn't hunt them down for you if I could.  Like the reasons why Deus shut the Renraku Seattle Arcology down in the first place, like what's happened to the Three Pre-Crash-2 AIs, the information is in there.  It's just a matter of knowing how to look at it.
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Sengir

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« Reply #442 on: <06-19-12/0621:34> »
I think you confuse 'could have' with 'would have'.
Irrelevant. If some meek basement dweller had exercised more, he could have been Mr. Universe. Maybe he even had the perfect prerequisites and most certainly would have been Mr. Universe. But point is he didn't and thus is not Mr. Universe and nobody knows for certain what would have happened if he had exercised more.


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The 'accidental' part comes from the novel; go re-read it, and you'll see specifically why it's those five who aren't affected by the intense psychological trauma that everyone else jacked in at the time was.  They weren't planned; they 'simply' had an outlook on life, reflected in their iconography, that enabled them to cope with what was basically sudden major thanatopic psychological trauma - 'Hi, you're gonna die right now!!"
The question is not whether the choice of "subjects" was accidental. The question is whether Mirage gave them their Otaku abilities subconsciously in his/her/its wakeup hangover, or was like "sorry for the fuss and thanks for your help, here, have something for your troubles".

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The allusions I claim as hard facts don't just come from the novel, however; they also come from myriad non-novel game resources that accept the novel as canonical.
...
I can't quote them all; I wouldn't hunt them down for you if I could.
In other words, you claim something but don't want to give sources. Invisible pink unicorns...

By the way Jay Levine offering his views on the matter

ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #443 on: <06-19-12/1204:48> »
Sengir, the novel implies Mirage's "gift" was an accident. The could have/would have argument is NOT irrelevant. Mirage (like all AIs) was incapable psychologically of even attempting half of Deus' actions because it was more closely tied to its original programming.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #444 on: <06-19-12/1815:20> »
Christ, Sengir, you're worse than a politician during election season.

I think you confuse 'could have' with 'would have'.
Irrelevant. If some meek basement dweller had exercised more, he could have been Mr. Universe. Maybe he even had the perfect prerequisites and most certainly would have been Mr. Universe. But point is he didn't and thus is not Mr. Universe and nobody knows for certain what would have happened if he had exercised more.

Again, you use erroneous logic - an incorrect analogy in this case.  Two people walk down the same street; both are armed with .45s.  One nods to everyone, and helps out a couple teenagers; the other one pulls the .45 and puts two rounds into the two teenagers.  Does this make the fact that the first one - the cop - could have done it any different than the fact that the second one - the gangsta - actually did do it??  Both of them are equipped with the same items; the cop may actually have more training in his weapon.  That he does not does not mean he cannot, it means that he chooses not to.

The 'accidental' part comes from the novel; go re-read it, and you'll see specifically why it's those five who aren't affected by the intense psychological trauma that everyone else jacked in at the time was.  They weren't planned; they 'simply' had an outlook on life, reflected in their iconography, that enabled them to cope with what was basically sudden major thanatopic psychological trauma - 'Hi, you're gonna die right now!!"
The question is not whether the choice of "subjects" was accidental. The question is whether Mirage gave them their Otaku abilities subconsciously in his/her/its wakeup hangover, or was like "sorry for the fuss and thanks for your help, here, have something for your troubles".

If that is truly your question, then in that case, no, I don't have an absolute answer for you.  My read on that particular situation, however, is that in either case Mirage had perfected the means to instill otaku abilities in another - and if it's as fast as 'oops, sorry, here, have this' in the last microseconds, it's even more impressive than simply doing it five times in as many minutes.  It would also re-emphasize the point that Mirage had the ability, and had refined it to be able to perform it at incredible speed, as compared to Deus.

The allusions I claim as hard facts don't just come from the novel, however; they also come from myriad non-novel game resources that accept the novel as canonical.
...
I can't quote them all; I wouldn't hunt them down for you if I could.
In other words, you claim something but don't want to give sources. Invisible pink unicorns...

By the way Jay Levine offering his views on the matter

Yes, yes.  No, I claim something that's been written about by people, including Jason - which views, note, fairly well back up what I've stated - and which you can go back and re-read all you want.  I'm not willing to do it because I've got better things, like writing, to do with my time instead of kow-towing to your demand for information that's already in your hands, especially when you're a pugnacious debater who is pretty blatantly unlikely to change your declared viewpoint, even if it was written canonically in short, definite sentences.

So sure, invisible pink unicorns.
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Sichr

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« Reply #445 on: <06-20-12/0317:30> »
Oh come on guys...
1) Since Im doing a lot of mistakes in my english, and misusing could have and would have is almost for sure one of them, Im learning from ya ;)
2) Well I dont see how exactly is your debate connected with the topic: Horrors
« Last Edit: <06-20-12/0943:29> by Sichr »

Wakshaani

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« Reply #446 on: <06-20-12/0908:17> »
Yeah, we have kinda drifted way away from the topic of the thread, haven't we?

Hrm.

Sichr

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« Reply #447 on: <06-20-12/1041:14> »
Only if:

invisible pink unicorns.

is a spoiler of nasty things to come :)

Wakshaani

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« Reply #448 on: <06-20-12/1138:06> »
Don't tempt me. The reign of Princess Celestia, Tyrant of the Sun, will be one as brutal as it is pastel.

IKerensky

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« Reply #449 on: <06-20-12/1143:02> »
Only if:

invisible pink unicorns.

is a spoiler of nasty things to come :)

Well that sure bod of unearthly horrors, as nothing from this dimension could be both invisible and pink...